Gaim vs EA After Action Report

[silashand]

Try it again against a fleet like 10 Shuuka Light Queen Cruisers, or 4 Shuuka Light Queen Cruisers with a mix of 3 Stuteekas/Shrunnkas, or in general, an optimized Gaim fleet.

Which is why as I and others have pointed out that the problem in the Gaim fleet isn't the emines or the fighters. It's the Queens, particularly the skirmish one. People want to blame the emines because they work well against certain pet ships, but they aren't the problem. Limiting the Queens somehow and forcing the Gaim to play according to their background would IMO almost completely fix the fleet and without the need to change much of anything else. Enforcing a battlegroup formation would both make the Gaim more playable and actually get them to use tactics other than sit back and shoot.

And I agree the scouts in a Gaim fleet are pointless unless you take them simply to get the re-rolls at the start of the game (assuming you do, of course). Not sure what their purpose is given that their weapons kit out is pathetic as well. Cool little models, but their abilities and role are questionable at best.

Cheers, Gary

 

[GhostRecon]

Try it again against a fleet like 10 Shuuka Light Queen Cruisers, or 4 Shuuka Light Queen Cruisers with a mix of 3 Stuteekas/Shrunnkas, or in general, an optimized Gaim fleet.

Which is why as I and others have pointed out that the problem in the Gaim fleet isn't the emines or the fighters. It's the Queens, particularly the skirmish one. Limiting them somehow and forcing the Gaim to play according to their background would IMO almost completely fix the fleet and without the need to change much of anything else. Enforcing a battlegroup formation would both make the Gaim more playable and actually get them to use tactics other than sit back and shoot.

And I agree the scouts in a Gaim fleet are pointless unless you take them simply to get the re-rolls at the start of the game (assuming you do, of course). Not sure what their purpose is given that their weapons kit out is pathetic as well. Cool little models, but their abilities and role are questionable at best.

Cheers, Gary

Agreed. My earliest suggestion was limiting Queen selection by priority. So if you chose a Battle Level Queen, you could only get, in addition to that Queen, two Raid, and Four Skirmish Queens, though I found Burger's(?) idea of making Queens into Admirals also a very effective choice.

 

[silashand]

I know it's not perfect, but a BFG-esque solution would be something like the following:

a) 0-2 skirmish queens in fleets with no other queen ships

b) If you bring a raid queen you may have 0-2 skirmish queens per raid queen in the fleet

c) If you bring a battle queen you may have 0-2 raid queens per battle queen in fleets

d) in order to have more than 2 of any one priority level of queen ship, you must bring at least one of the next higher priority level if one exists. If there is no higher level queen ship then you may field as many of that level as you like within your fleet allocation.

The queen selections would not be interchangeable, i.e. if you brought a battle level queen you could not bring 4 skirmish queens instead of a raid level queen and 2 skirmish ones.

Finally, reduce the range of the emines on the skirmish queen to 30".

Thus, in a 5pt Raid fleet the most queens you could have would be (using the current models available):

1 battle queen
2 raid queen
2 skirmish queens

This would accomplish several things:

1) make each gradiant of queen successively better than the previous one which is as it should be.

2) encourage the Gaim player to field ships other than queens.

3) even if the Gaim player brought all queens, the ones available would not be nearly as abusive as the combination of skirmish queens now. They also would not be nearly as effective and would encourage new tactics.

4) IMO most importantly, it would better represent the background of the Gaim by enforcing the idea that young queens are not sent out in large numbers without a big sister to look after them.

Cheers, Gary

 

[akenatum]

How about just fix it so it's more like this...

A gaim fleet must have 1 point allocation of queens for the game being played.... the gaim player must take the largest queen available to him in that allocation, followed by the next largest and so on till the point allocation has been used Once you have 1 of each queen repeat this process till your at the allocated point level..... If your playing a patrol level game this does mean that no queens may be taken

ie a battle game would be a 1 battle queen, a raid game would be a raid queen, a war game would be 1 battle, 1 raid, 2 skirmish....

Also limit gaim to be played in games of a point limit of 3 allocation points or more....


Anyone like that for an addition to the start of the gaim fleet list?


The only problem I see then is the lack of clarafication of how suicide fighters contact and the fact that loading the rest of your points up on just fighter bases could be really really bad depending on the rulling of how they contact...

 

[wkehrman]

A word or two about Gaim fleet mix in this scenario.

The mix of ships is built to the restrictions for a tournament next week: 5 raid points, at least one ship must be battle level, and no more than 8 ships. I've seen other games in which the fleet/army lists are balanced for tournament play (size restrictions, etc.). As I was not in on the playtesting, I do not know if this philosophy governs ACTA. Everyone in our group has discussed different fleet mixes if there were no restrictions on a 5 raid FAP game. Of course, in this scenario, where I have a good idea I'll be playing silashand, my fleet can flex a bit as I've gotten to know what he likes to play. My fleet would be different than what I'd take against David Anla'Shok (Minbari), and different again against dag'karlove (Narn).

Another couple of key issues people seem to be ignoring:

(1) Gaim Photon bombs are not Narn E-mines. They do a single point of damage/crew per hit, and they go away on an attack roll of 1.

(2) Gaim Photon bombs never cause criticals.

(3) Gaim queens are vulnerable to weapons criticals.

Ripple makes some good points regarding dodge, stealth, etc. And I think some comment was made earlier about my EA fleet. I disagree with Ripple's notion that interceptors are the EA's primary defense, though. I see the high hull ratings of many of their ships as the primary defense. There are a few other issues.

I will ignore Close Blast Doors for this discussion--everyone else seems to be doing so.

Drazi--dependent (perhaps too dependent) on Beam weapons. These ignore the Gaim Queen's hull 6. We all know that when the beam dice are good, they are very good.

Whitestars--Improved Neutron Lasers, no bulkheads and twice as likely to get a critical. Adaptive Armor negates half of the damage.

Minbari--Still carry some pretty powerful weapons, though admittedly, they'll have a tough time with the e-mines.

EA--hull 5 and 6 ships. Most major vessels have at least one beam weapon. Missiles and railguns are quite effective against the Gaim.

The notion of "running away"--Queens have a maximum speed of 6 which is half of the speed of many of the enemy ships in question, where are they going to "run" to? Even if they do run, consider that, with a couple of turns of running on BOTH sides, and depending on setup, one is outside the 40" range of the e-mines. Use this distance to deal with the fighters and pods, then go after the capital ships.

The Drazi do have a problem against the Gaim, given the Drazi's over-dependence on Beam weapons. With the other fleets, there are more options. OF course, this opens up a discussion of fleet construction which has been declared a null conversation in previous threads. After all, you should be able to play what you want and win, right?

 

[silashand]

I will ignore Close Blast Doors for this discussion--everyone else seems to be doing so.

Unlike BFG, no one I've noticed in this game seems to use it much. Personally I prefer the BFG 'Brace for Impact' mechanism as it means you can react to incoming fire if you so desire, but it will affect your performance next turn if you do. JMO though.

Drazi--dependent (perhaps too dependent) on Beam weapons. These ignore the Gaim Queen's hull 6. We all know that when the beam dice are good, they are very good.

As I noted, the Drazi aren't exactly the best example to use of why emines are bad.

Whitestars--Improved Neutron Lasers, no bulkheads and twice as likely to get a critical. Adaptive Armor negates half of the damage.

Points which many seem to be ignoring.

Minbari--Still carry some pretty powerful weapons, though admittedly, they'll have a tough time with the e-mines.

Though I haven't played my Gaim vs the Minbari yet, they generally seem to have enough speed to close with the Gaim and deal out the hurt as they wish and enough damage points to withstand all but the most determined emine barrage until they do. JMO though.

The notion of "running away"--Queens have a maximum speed of 6 which is half of the speed of many of the enemy ships in question, where are they going to "run" to?

Another point I've been trying to make. The Gaim don't really have any way to get out of fire arcs/boresight. This makes them more vulnerable than many here seem to realize.

Of course, this opens up a discussion of fleet construction which has been declared a null conversation in previous threads. After all, you should be able to play what you want and win, right?

Of course! No admiral would ever think of tailoring his tactics against an enemy. Such talk is blasphemy. Even bringing it up is tantamount to heresy. Stay where you are and the Inquisition will be visiting you shortly to administer your required pain therapy.



Cheers, Gary

 

[Da Boss]

I used close the blast doors on my fleet as they tried to close on a Gaim fleet - lost 2 ships (one battle level before I got in range of the fighter screen) its the huge amouunt of AD that gets dropped on one ship that hurts. I use that spcl action alot - always have done - esp with Centauri ships.

I think you have to consider that gaim player is likely to start on the table edge and move along it unless hyperspace is allowed.

re White Stars - 12 seperate hits (that are not bulkheads) kill a Whitestar. Say 30 AD - so rnd 1 at 40" range, 4 of the Skuukas kill it - and the other 4 kill another one.

its worth remembering that not everyone has long range beams that ignore both hull and interceptors. Alot of fleets have long range missiles etc that have to try and get past these tough, hull6 ships that have interceptors.

What I still don't understand is why the Gaim have all these advanced traits..................(andvacned Anti fighter and flight computer)

re the Scout - it is likely to turn up alot in other fleets more than the Gaim.

re Beam dice - yes they can be good but just as often they are very very bad - just watched a game where the Shadow players 6 dice beam scored about 4 hits (total) over three turns................

The issue that many have is not that the whole fleet is completely broken - although some do consider that I think but that like the old Centauri fleets there are certain combincations/ships that are just too good. No more Tertius / Prefect ................good thing. People could and did use non broken centauri fleets in 1st ed but some dont - and it causes problems...............

Gaim are only one of many fleets that get hit by weapons crits - including ISA, Drazi, Vree (who don't get mentioned much),

I don't want to make the Gaim rubbish - personally I want to make them more of a fun fleet to play with and against..............

 

[silashand]

What I still don't understand is why the Gaim have all these advanced traits..................(andvacned Anti fighter and flight computer)

I might agree on the flight computer, but not the AF. IMO any fleet that focuses on fighters will also have developed a decent defense against the same tactics.

re the Scout - it is likely to turn up alot in other fleets more than the Gaim.

That's not what we were discussing. We were wondering just what the purpose of the *Gaim* scouts is because none of the scout special abilities apply to the weaponry carried by the Gaim fleet. Thus they are cool little models, but what their role is supposed to be other than to potentially give the Gaim player the 1st turn re-rolls is unclear. They seem to lack an actual place in the fleet given their abilities. I don't know how to change them to make them a useful addition, but as it stands they are sort of the fleet's ugly duckling.

I don't want to make the Gaim rubbish - personally I want to make them more of a fun fleet to play with and against..............

Agreed. I just think based on playing them that the best way to do that is to limit the queens somehow. Unfortunately most people seem to get caught up in the emine hate so they miss where the actual problem lies. JMO though...

Cheers, Gary

 

[David Anla Shok']

Emines deserve to be reigned in. Too much goodness without cause.
;>
Anyway, the "distance to stem" rule seemed to work out pretty well. It made the suicide torpedoes work out pretty much like other torpedoes while still having liabilites to overcome.

We were seeing where Gaim could become really nasty with a change in fleet composition. Garys suggestion about designing in limitations to the number and type of queens seems a good option.

 

[Methos5000]

re White Stars - 12 seperate hits (that are not bulkheads) kill a Whitestar. Say 30 AD - so rnd 1 at 40" range, 4 of the Skuukas kill it - and the other 4 kill another one.

This one is worth repeating. The Whitestars could fight against this force if there weren't so many banks on low AD emines. A 2AD AP Emine will on average hit a Whitestar once and on average cause 1 point of damage and crew. Even if both hit the AA would round it down to 1 Damage and crew, However each skirmish queen can cause 4 points of damage to a Whitestar, while that may not be much for most fleets it almost blasts a Whitestar in half and it cripples a Bluestar. Add in multiple emine ships in the fleet and you begin to see the problem.

Personally I think Turreted Emines should have never existed. If you want to give them front arc batteries of them or even fixed arcs there would be less of an issue but Turreted is way over the top.

And I will say again I don't care how ineffective Gaim emines are against hull 6 ships. If they have a 90%+ success rate against ONE fleet they are broken and the Gaim have that against at least two (Drazi and ISA).

 

[Tzarevitch]

re White Stars - 12 seperate hits (that are not bulkheads) kill a Whitestar. Say 30 AD - so rnd 1 at 40" range, 4 of the Skuukas kill it - and the other 4 kill another one.

This one is worth repeating. The Whitestars could fight against this force if there weren't so many banks on low AD emines. A 2AD AP Emine will on average hit a Whitestar once and on average cause 1 point of damage and crew. Even if both hit the AA would round it down to 1 Damage and crew, However each skirmish queen can cause 4 points of damage to a Whitestar, while that may not be much for most fleets it almost blasts a Whitestar in half and it cripples a Bluestar. Add in multiple emine ships in the fleet and you begin to see the problem.

Personally I think Turreted Emines should have never existed. If you want to give them front arc batteries of them or even fixed arcs there would be less of an issue but Turreted is way over the top.

And I will say again I don't care how ineffective Gaim emines are against hull 6 ships. If they have a 90%+ success rate against ONE fleet they are broken and the Gaim have that against at least two (Drazi and ISA).

Fix them forward and consolidate them into a single battery or into 2 batteries of 4 at minimum so that they can't depth charge everywhere on the board at once. Also reduce all photon bomb ranges to 30" except for the Battle-level queen.

Tzarevitch

 

[Methos5000]

re White Stars - 12 seperate hits (that are not bulkheads) kill a Whitestar. Say 30 AD - so rnd 1 at 40" range, 4 of the Skuukas kill it - and the other 4 kill another one.

This one is worth repeating. The Whitestars could fight against this force if there weren't so many banks on low AD emines. A 2AD AP Emine will on average hit a Whitestar once and on average cause 1 point of damage and crew. Even if both hit the AA would round it down to 1 Damage and crew, However each skirmish queen can cause 4 points of damage to a Whitestar, while that may not be much for most fleets it almost blasts a Whitestar in half and it cripples a Bluestar. Add in multiple emine ships in the fleet and you begin to see the problem.

Personally I think Turreted Emines should have never existed. If you want to give them front arc batteries of them or even fixed arcs there would be less of an issue but Turreted is way over the top.

And I will say again I don't care how ineffective Gaim emines are against hull 6 ships. If they have a 90%+ success rate against ONE fleet they are broken and the Gaim have that against at least two (Drazi and ISA).

Fix them forward and consolidate them into a single battery or into 2 batteries of 4 at minimum so that they can't depth charge everywhere on the board at once. Also reduce all photon bomb ranges to 30" except for the Battle-level queen.

Tzarevitch

And that would be an acceptable change. Give them 10-12" secondaries of pulse cannons or something on the other arcs to compensate and they would be fine then. Plus it would eliminate the "I'm running away but still hitting you with everything I have" strategy.

 

[David Anla Shok']

Seems like reasonable changes. Our resident bug hasn't done the mass emine thing to us yet, having not acquired the requisite ships but you can see the potential.

 

[silashand]

Except that as I've mentioned before neither address the real problem which is the queens and the fact that there are no limits on them. Besides being totally against the background, it alone is what breaks the fleet, not the emines.

And even if I had the requisite models, I don't do that. I prefer the games to be fun for everyone ;-).

Cheers, Gary

 

[David Anla Shok']

Except that as I've mentioned before neither address the real problem which is the queens and the fact that there are no limits on them. Besides being totally against the background, it alone is what breaks the fleet, not the emines.

And even if I had the requisite models, I don't do that. I prefer the games to be fun for everyone ;-).

Cheers, Gary

A bug player with a conscience. Who'd a thunk it?

 

[silashand]

A bug player with a conscience. Who'd a thunk it?

A game is a game. For me the reason I play is the social aspect. If my opponent isn't having fun then I doubt I will. I don't mind losing, though obviously I try not to, but it's more important to make sure the time I have off is spent doing something enjoyable. If it weren't I could be at home watching TV (or more likely goofing off on the computer).

Probably why I usually don't do so well at tournaments... ;-)

Cheers, Gary

 

[wkehrman]

A bug player with a conscience. Who'd a thunk it?

A game is a game. For me the reason I play is the social aspect. If my opponent isn't having fun then I doubt I will. I don't mind losing, though obviously I try not to, but it's more important to make sure the time I have off is spent doing something enjoyable. If it weren't I could be at home watching TV (or more likely goofing off on the computer).

Probably why I usually don't do so well at tournaments... ;-)

Cheers, Gary

I thought the reason you played was to tick off David....

 

[silashand]

I thought the reason you played was to tick off David....

No, that's the reason I bought a Drakh fleet. Never said I wouldn't play nice with them though... ;-)

Cheers, Gary

 

[David Anla Shok']

I thought the reason you played was to tick off David....

No, that's the reason I bought a Drakh fleet. Never said I wouldn't play nice with them though... ;-)

Cheers, Gary

You've both spent too much time with DagKarLove.....