FTL starship today

[Reynard]

Another too much free time moment.
A possible itinerary for an exploratory cruise. Some system names
were from the 2300 Near Star List and I didn't find the real equivalent.
Don't worry...

IXS Enterprise Warp drive 2 = .93 ly/day.
5 months (150 day) life support endurance.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Dist…Trvl...…Total…...To…...Trvl
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ly….Time....Time..….Sol…..Time
Sol -> Proxima Centauri . . . . . . . . . . . 4.23... 4.55... 4.55... 4.23... 4.55
Proxima Centauri -> Alpha Centauri. . . .0.23..… .25... 4.80... 4.36... 4.67
Alpha Centauri -> Barnard's Star. . . . . .6.48... 6.97..11.77... 5.98... 6.43
Barnard's Star -> GI 724. . . . . . . . . . 5.41... 5.82..17.59... 9.56..10.28
GI 724 -> LP 341-14. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7.21….7.75..25.34.. 12.50..13.44
LP 341-14 -> Epsilon Indi. . . . . . . . . . 4.23... 4.55..29.89.. 11.28..12.13
Epsilon Indi -> PiP sa. . . . . . . . . . . . . .4.61... 4.96..34.85.. 11.46..12.32
PiP sa -> LFT 1729. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4.20... 4.52..39.37 .. 11.08..11.91

Hiking back from LFT 1729 will make 51 days interstellar travel time.
That leaves 99 days exploration time or 12 days (288 hours) per system.
Problem is entering a new system is normally from the outer system
say far gas giant range. At 2g it will take 117 hours to reach in-system
either as a fly-by observing macro features and/or lingering for any detail
study for 5 days minus time needed to clear the 100d boundary before warp
out-system.

The information would determine further investigation for any of the eight
initial systems after analysis and diagnosis of the ship in dock. Not bad start.

And, oh yeah, this editor isn't so hot with spacing ability.

 

[Reynard]

As I took the long view of my last past I realized another difference between Traveller warp mechanics and Jump. Jump exit is blind especially if the system is unexplored thus the need for scouts and explorers to exit far out system. Traveller warp drive, as far as I understand it, is in real space. I'm sure ship computers compensate for sensor distortion so the ship can maneuver.

A warp powered ship knows well ahead of time what is in front of its sensors including gravity wells and can make corrections as it navigates within a system until 100d obstructions become so prevalent to force warp shutdown and switch to maneuver drive. Somewhat akin to micro-jumps within a system. This will give a bit more loiter time for exploration.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

As I took the long view of my last past I realized another difference between Traveller warp mechanics and Jump. Jump exit is blind especially if the system is unexplored thus the need for scouts and explorers to exit far out system. Traveller warp drive, as far as I understand it, is in real space. I'm sure ship computers compensate for sensor distortion so the ship can maneuver.

A warp powered ship knows well ahead of time what is in front of its sensors including gravity wells and can make corrections as it navigates within a system until 100d obstructions become so prevalent to force warp shutdown and switch to maneuver drive. Somewhat akin to micro-jumps within a system. This will give a bit more loiter time for exploration.

Finding another warp ship would be hard, as the EM radiation you use to detect it would be out of date. I think the way sensors work is that the ship has to drop out of warp to pick up EM radiation, and then go into warp again, if it does this at least 15 times per second, it would appear to the occupants of the ship as a continuous motion through space at FTL velocities without distortion. The reason for this is simple, to establish a warp, you need a positive gravitational singularity in the front of the ship and a negative gravitational singularity behind the ship, the ship cannot communicate with the singularities to turn them off so the singularities have to be designed as a collapsing wave, the ship is sort of like a surf board in front of a wave, the wave pushes the board forward and eventually the wave collapses on its own. This is how a warp bubble would have to be designed, while in the warp bubble all communication with the outside universe is cut off until that warp bubble collapses and releases the starship into normal space, then the warp drive creates another warp bubble and the process repeats, if it creates 15 such warp bubbles per second and each warp bubble moves the ship forward by more than one fifteenth of a light second (ABOUT 20,000 km), we have an apparent FTL velocity, the only light or other EM radiation the occupants of the ship see, would be between warp bubbles. The starfield would seem one fifteenth dimmer while under warp than usual. So lets say at 100 diameters the warp drive can send the ship forward by 20,000 km per warp bubble generated, and one moves further away from the gravitational source this improves until the maximum warp rating of the warp engine is achieved.

Lets say one is in a space station watching a warp ship approach with these assumptions, what would one see? The first thing one would see is the warp ship appearing a short distance away from the station, then one fifteenth of a second later that same warp ship would be detect 20,000 km away for an instant and then disappear, then it would appear 40,000 km away during the next fifteenth of a second and then disappear, and the fifteenth of a second after that it would pop into existence 60,000 km away and then disappear into warp again, at least it would appear that way to the space station's sensors. This leads to certain tactical problems, for instance if there is an invading force and the station is at the 100 diamter limit of greater the first warning would occur when the fleet was on top of the station. Defense installations would have to be located within the 100 diameter limit.
Warp drives would slow down below the speed of light once they are within the 100 diameter limit. What would be an appropriate formula?

The Earth is 12,800 km, the 100 diameter limit for it would be 1,280,000 km.

Here is a table with a 20th power inverse rule:
Diameters. kilometers. factor. 20th power. Warp Bubble displacement. Apparent velocity
100 .1,280,000 .1 . 1 . 20,000 km . 300,000 km/sec
99 1,267,200 0.99 0.817906938 16,358 km 245,372 km/sec
98 1,254,400 0.98 0.667607972 13,352 km 200,282 km/sec
97 1,241,600 0.97 0.543794343 10,876 km 163,138 km/sec
96 1,228,800 0.96 0.442002434 8,840 km 132,601 km/sec
95 1,216,000 0.95 0.358485922 7,170 km 107,546 km/sec
94 1,203,200 0.94 0.290106241 5,802 km 87,032 km/sec
93 1,190,400 0.93 0.234238874 4,685 km 70,272 km/sec
92 1,177,600 0.92 0.188693329 3,774 km 56,608 km/sec
91 1,164,800 0.91 0.151644913 3,033 km 45,493 km/sec
90 1,152,000 0.9 0.121576655 2,432 km 36,473 km/sec
89 1,139,200 0.89 0.097229966 1,945 km 29,169 km/sec
88 1,126,400 0.88 0.077562794 1,551 km 23,269 km/sec
87 1,113,600 0.87 0.061714193 1,234 km 18,514 km/sec
86 1,100,800 0.86 0.048974389 979 km 14,692 km/sec
85 1,088,000 0.85 0.038759531 775 km 11,628 km/sec
84 1,075,200 0.84 0.03059044 612 km 9,177 km/sec
83 1,062,400 0.83 0.024074753 481 km 7,222 km/sec
82 1,049,600 0.82 0.018891961 378 km 5,668 km/sec
81 1,036,800 0.81 0.014780883 296 km 4,434 km/sec
80 1,024,000 0.8 0.011529215 231 km 3,459 km/sec
79 1,011,200 0.79 0.008964825 179 km 2,689 km/sec
78 998,400 0.78 0.006948516 139 km 2,085 km/sec
77 985,600 0.77 0.005368025 107 km 1,610 km/sec
76 972,800 0.76 0.004133061 83 km 1,240 km/sec
75 960,000 0.75 0.003171212 63 km 951 km/sec
74 947,200 0.74 0.002424568 48 km 727 km/sec
73 934,400 0.73 0.001846959 37 km 554 km/sec
72 921,600 0.72 0.001401683 28 km 421 km/sec
71 908,800 0.71 0.001059661 21 km 318 km/sec
70 896,000 0.7 0.000797923 16 km 239 km/sec
69 883,200 0.69 0.000598387 12 km 180 km/sec
68 870,400 0.68 0.000446867 9 km 134 km/sec
67 857,600 0.67 0.000332274 7 km 100 km/sec
66 844,800 0.66 0.000245968 5 km 74 km/sec
65 832,000 0.65 0.000181245 4 km 54 km/sec
64 819,200 0.64 0.000132923 3 km 40 km/sec
63 806,400 0.63 9.70088E-05 2 km 29 km/sec
62 793,600 0.62 7.04423E-05 1 km 21 km/sec
61 780,800 0.61 5.08858E-05 1 km 15 km/sec
60 768,000 0.6 3.65616E-05 1 km 11 km/sec
59 755,200 0.59 2.6124E-05 1 km 8 km/sec
58 742,400 0.58 1.85592E-05 0 km 6 km/sec
57 729,600 0.57 1.31068E-05 0 km 4 km/sec
56 716,800 0.56 9.19942E-06 0 km 3 km/sec
55 704,000 0.55 6.41584E-06 0 km 2 km/sec
54 691,200 0.54 4.44504E-06 0 km 1 km/sec
53 678,400 0.53 3.05856E-06 0 km 1 km/sec
52 665,600 0.52 2.08962E-06 0 km 1 km/sec
51 652,800 0.51 1.41711E-06 0 km 0 km/sec
50 640,000 0.5 9.53674E-07 0 km 0 km/sec

 

[Reynard]

....I think you just reinvented Stutterwarp.

Calculating information fore and aft would be a matter of interpreting the red and blue shifting. Explains the size of those ship computers again. You don't fight or explore in warp, you get from here to there with flexibility! Warp does allow starting and stopping (and turn on a dime, give you nine cents change) at any time though there's usually a whole lot of hydrogen and dark matter between systems so you need some real good reason to pull over.

Coming close to a destination, sensors pick out the macros to determine navigation as far in before encountering gravitational hazards at which point maneuver drive kicks in. Charted systems make calculating warp depth into a system easier right up to the 100D of a destination.

The old 'micro-jump' would be standard in system as long as you're outside the various grav wells including the star(s). And last, communication during warp is still a bitch because of vast distance and the speed of light.

There's your differences and similarities.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Technically there would be no red or blue shifting, since when the warp is on you are cut off from the universe, and when it is off your ship is not moving much at all. It works by destroying 20,000 km of space in front of the ship and creating 20,000 km of space behind the ship, amd this is easier to do with space that is empty. One main difference between this an stutterwarp, is that if there is a significant object in the path of the ship the ship stops. Minute bits of matter such as hydrogen get converted into energy, if there is a rock or asteroid, this slows down the warp ship as it can't warp space and convert an asteroid into energy, the ship basically waits for the asteroid to move out of the ship's path and then continues. Curved space, such as within the gravitational well of a planet is also harder to warp, so the distance traversed is less, the warp drive becomes ineffective at half the warp limit, which for Earth is about twice the distance from the Earth to the Moon, at this point a maneuver drive is required. The warp limit officially is proportional to the cube of the mass of the object, which happens to be 100 diameters in the case of Earth and other objects with the same density as Earth, for the Sun its less.

 

[Reynard]

Okay, we're describing two different concepts of a warp drive. I used the description in the ship design rules for warping space while remaining in real space. You are describing something closer to rapidly repeated micro-jumps without the time issue. In some ways we're describing the two Star Trek warp systems, the old warp engines were continuous space warping while the trans-warp engines move the ship by actually teleporting the ship repeatedly while also warping.

Time to agree to disagree what warp means so we don't confuse each other's descriptions on this thread.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Okay, we're describing two different concepts of a warp drive. I used the description in the ship design rules for warping space while remaining in real space. You are describing something closer to rapidly repeated micro-jumps without the time issue. In some ways we're describing the two Star Trek warp systems, the old warp engines were continuous space warping while the trans-warp engines move the ship by actually teleporting the ship repeatedly while also warping.

Time to agree to disagree what warp means so we don't confuse each other's descriptions on this thread.

It depends on whether a ship in warp can interact with the universe while in warp. I would still say that if you could see out of a warp envelope, the universe you would be seeing would be out of date. If you could study a star system ahead of you as you traveled toward it, you would see the planets rapidly revolving around their star as if in a movie played fast forward. You would no know where the enemy warp ship was, the enemy warp ship would not know where you are so long as you are at warp. A lot of scenarios in Star Trek depend on a FTL sensor system and communications systems. They intercept a distress signal while traveling at warp for instance, they detect Klingon battle cruisers pursuing them for instance. One way to detect something is to send a warp probe ahead of the starship, and then have it warp back to report.

One problem, how does the warp missile find the ship that sent it so it can report back? It would be necessary for the warp ship and the warp missile to both drop out of warp at a preselected time and space so both can communicate and exchange messages. Maybe design the warp message missile to travel 100 times as fast as the warp ship, so it can communicate with Earth and send probes out to where it is heading. Probably the warp missile will have to be tough to withstand the gravitational stresses that it would undergo while warping at such a high velocity, a human would be torn apart under the same circumstances, otherwise the warp ship would travel that fast in the first place.

Lets say a warp ship can travel 1 parsec in a week 168 hours now a warp message or probe missile that can travel 100 times as fast but can't carry any human occupants could cross that distance in how much time? 1.68 hours I believe or 1 hour, 40 minutes, and 48 seconds. So lets say Mission control wants to stay in relative contact with the IXS Enteprise while it explores Alpha Centauri. The message missile would take 3.36 hours to make a round trip and would need to spend time at both Earth and Alpha Centauri communicating with both the ship and Mission Control. So each message missile would be 3.36 hours out of date, the message missile would play its message and receive instructions at high speed before it warps out again. Messages would be stored on the ship's and Mission control's memory buffers while it waits for the message missile to appear again. The messages would be played back to Mission Control at normal speed so people can understand it, while an AI program would scan the messages much more quickly in case their are any emergencies that needed to be fast forwarded to and dealt with, by sending another warp ship for instance. Most of the public would see a continous video of the FTL astronauts exploring the Alpha Centauri System with a 3.36 hour time lag, the message missiles would go back and forth as the buffers play back what the astronauts are doing at normal speed for the public to digest. that is my FTL communication system.

Most battles would take place within 50 diameters of a planet's surface, where warp drives do not operate. FTL combat is practically impossible.

 

[Reynard]

It's usually referred to as warping because the effect compresses space fore and expands aft to move the ship a greater distance in shorter time and the Traveler description says you are still in real space. For most stories and games time isn't so distorted as to remove al references outside the warp affect. It seems fair you would experience spatial and maybe time shifting. Everything is till there but distorted and the right receivers and programming could correct such errors on macro scales. This is why warp travel is best in open and deep space plus gravity messes with warp effects horribly, same effects as jump failure while within 100D. That's a lot of rolls not to fail!ou still have no reason to send or receive messages in deep space because you'll arrive long before the transmission does.

Once in a system you want data as accurate as possible and that's why sub-warp maneuver is essential besides not having a serious engine failure from all those grav wells. And again, Traveller isn't too cool in game mechanics with jump or warp missiles are a non-issue there. All other weapons would be a bitch to use in warp too. Sub-light battles my friend, sub-light.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

It's usually referred to as warping because the effect compresses space fore and expands aft to move the ship a greater distance in shorter time and the Traveler description says you are still in real space. For most stories and games time isn't so distorted as to remove al references outside the warp affect. It seems fair you would experience spatial and maybe time shifting. Everything is till there but distorted and the right receivers and programming could correct such errors on macro scales. This is why warp travel is best in open and deep space plus gravity messes with warp effects horribly, same effects as jump failure while within 100D. That's a lot of rolls not to fail!ou still have no reason to send or receive messages in deep space because you'll arrive long before the transmission does.

Once in a system you want data as accurate as possible and that's why sub-warp maneuver is essential besides not having a serious engine failure from all those grav wells. And again, Traveller isn't too cool in game mechanics with jump or warp missiles are a non-issue there. All other weapons would be a bitch to use in warp too. Sub-light battles my friend, sub-light.

I was thinking of a warp probe, it basically has two or three components.
1) is the Warp Message missile, it warps to and from the ship returning back to the ship every 3.5 hours.
2) then their is the buffer probe, it basically sits at the 100 diameter limit collecting data from the surface probe.
3) The surface probe explores a planet sends data to the buffer probe.

When the warp message missile arrives the buffer probe sends the data it has collected to the warp missile and when the data upload is complete the warp missile warps to prearranged coordinates to meet up with the starship and transfer data.

 

[Reynard]

Since the Beta High Guard 2e hasn't included alternative drives or engines, I'm waiting for the finished product to see if the IXS Enterprise will rise in the new edition. I find it interesting to have a Warp Traveller Universe that actually enables 3D plotting of systems.

Might make it a project to build a history revolving around the first extra stellar exploration mission and what lead up to it.

 

[AndrewW]

Since the Beta High Guard 2e hasn't included alternative drives or engines, I'm waiting for the finished product to see if the IXS Enterprise will rise in the new edition. I find it interesting to have a Warp Traveller Universe that actually enables 3D plotting of systems.

The High Technology section includes Hyperdrive, Space Folding Drive, Time Drive and Warp Drive,

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

I find it interesting to have a Warp Traveller Universe that actually enables 3D plotting of systems.

The Rhombic Dodecahedron is your friend... voxels for the win, yo.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Since the Beta High Guard 2e hasn't included alternative drives or engines, I'm waiting for the finished product to see if the IXS Enterprise will rise in the new edition. I find it interesting to have a Warp Traveller Universe that actually enables 3D plotting of systems.

Might make it a project to build a history revolving around the first extra stellar exploration mission and what lead up to it.

I think we definitely could use a second Traveller setting that uses the warp drive and dumps the usual star trek assumptions and expectations. With Star Trek, the warp ships, are big capital vessels and the small ships are the equivalent of space going row boats, that is the big ships have warp drives, the smaller ones have less efficient warp drives or impulse engines only, so the big ships are the fastest, but this doesn't work for Traveller so much, where you want independent small parties of PCs.

 

[Reynard]

Star Trek needs big ships 1) Because most of the action happens on the ship so you need a lot of locations and 2) 400+ people means you have a variety of talent pools, support personnel and enough red shirts for any occasion. Traveller focuses on a few daring individuals in their own talent pool. It would be the bridge crew of a Federation cruiser operating together on a ship built for them.

The reason I'm thinking a warp alternative is twofold, we keep dreaming about a working 3D mapping system which really doesn't work with the highly discreet jump and hexes. The warp is an analog that can deal with star systems Omni-directionally and any distance. It definitely allows for real universe maps. Along the same chain of thought comes several articles speculating on conjectural possibilities for a warp drive, working highly efficient motive systems and superior power system. The point is a 'what if'. What if these weren't speculative? What if Earth today actually discover these things are real and producible? It does have the makings of a new series still Traveller but not the normal Traveller.

I'm still amazed we don't hear other's making use of the alternates in FTL, motive and power. They've been around for a few editions.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

I would recommend this book by Travis Taylor then. I think it has a very realistic treatment of warp drives. Warp drives are used for several things, to go faster than the speed of light, as shields, and as a cloaking device. In fact Taylor's warp ships don't need any other form of propulsion, they can go slower than light speed or faster, they can hover above the ground within an atmosphere, and they can produce their own internal gravity. In fact in this book, a colony is planted on the Moon under a force field created by a warp drive.

Dr. Neal Anson Clemons, brilliant physicist and martial arts expert, was born at the very moment that men first landed on the moon, and his dream had always been to find a way to travel to the stars. And now he and his team have achieved a breakthrough, both in building a warp drive, and finding a new energy source powerful enough to make the drive more than an interesting theoretical concept. With the help of a beautiful Air Force Major and astronaut, Tabitha Ames, the US Government has funded the project, including assembly in orbit of the first faster-than-light probe. Unfortunately, forces working behind the scenes have much darker dreams, and they do not hesitate to blow up a space shuttle, attempt to kill Neal and Tabitha, and use the stolen warp technology to start what they expect to be a short victorious war with the United States. But Neal has ideas for using warp drive completely unsuspected by America's enemies, and repelling the all-out attack is only the beginning of a titanic struggle to reach the stars.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1369367.Warp_Speed

A little background on the author:

Travis S. Taylor
Website
http://www.doctravis.com/
Genre
Science Fiction & Fantasy, Nonfiction

Travis Shane Taylor is a born and bred southerner and resides just outside Huntsville, Alabama. He has a Doctorate in Optical Science and Engineering, a Master’s degree in Physics, a Master’s degree in Aerospace Engineering, all from the University of Alabama in Huntsville; a Master’s degree in Astronomy from the Univ. of Western Sydney, and a Bachelor’s degree in Electrical Engineering from Auburn University. He is a licensed Professional Engineer in the state of Alabama.

Dr. Taylor has worked on various programs for the Department of Defense and NASA for the past sixteen years. He is currently working on several advanced propulsion concepts, very large space telescopes, space based beamed energy systems, future combat technologies and systems, and next generation space launch concepts. He is also involved with multiple MASINT, SIGINT, IMINT, and HUMINT concept studies.

He has published over 25 papers and the appendix on solar sailing in the 2nd edition of Deep Space Probes by Greg Matloff.

His first science fiction novel is, Warp Speed, and his second is The Quantum Connection published by Baen Publishing. He is also working on two different series with best-selling author John Ringo also by Baen Publishing. He has several other works of both fiction and nonfiction ongoing.

Travis is also a Black Belt martial artist, a private pilot, a SCUBA diver, races mountain and road bikes, competed in triathlons, and has been the lead singer and rhythm guitarist of several hard rock bands. He currently lives with his wife Karen, his daughter Kalista Jade, two dogs Stevie and Wesker, and his cat Kuro.

http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/122926.Travis_S_Taylor

 

[Reynard]

All very nice but the idea is to make this Traveller so use what Traveller gives. The warp drive is FTL. Every other system works as is and very well. At least for me, there's no need to completely reinvent the game.

 

[Skaran]

In my Core Worlds Campaign I make use of what the locals call a Hyperspace Translation Drive, basically a hyperspace driver capable of 1ly/day. Though the ships were designed using TNE's Fire Fusion and Steel I am toying with the idea of using HG2 and MT2 to redo this universe. The maps are also 3D.
You can find it at http://www.skaran.net

 

[Reynard]

Andrew, thank you for pointing out I had a massive brain[pass gas] and the High Technology section, which I have read several times, became the lost colony. Warp drive 2e is slightly different from 1e. Still, I will convert from 1e to 2e and see how it flies.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

All very nice but the idea is to make this Traveller so use what Traveller gives. The warp drive is FTL. Every other system works as is and very well. At least for me, there's no need to completely reinvent the game.

Well basically you have to limit warp drive to FTL speeds, but theoretically there is no reason to do that. An warp drive can also be used as a maneuver drive, and it can be used as a deflector shield, and also as a means to provide artificial gravity within a starship, that is what Travis Taylor was getting at.

 

[Reynard]

Finally have a chance to sit and really peruse the HG2e while converting the 1e warp drive ship. Going 'smoothly' and then I'm reading the Advance Technology drive section. Wow, Warp doing ship's thrust in parsecs per hour! That's Grandfather speeds. I shall invoke Traveller Rule Zero. As the advanced drive section states, you can downgrade the tech level of those drives by 8 to 10 TLs. Take from TL 17 to TL 9 which is a good starting point. The speed though might be great for a TL 17 but a bit ludicrous for this drive as a gameplay standard so let's go 1e and make the speed per week rather than per hour. When I next have time again to slap it all together, I need to see how Power points, power plant and endurance will affect this. Originally I used the fission plant which gave great endurance but since fusion begins at TL 8, we can say Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons were actually right about a form of cold fusion.

Still a good challenge to make it fit and work.

Historically, since grav vehicles come in at TL 8, I can see early gravitic science being well developed in the 1990a and 2000s leading to finally getting the theorized ship sized gravitic thrust system referred to as maneuver drive with concurrent development of field gravity compensation systems. The solar system can now be efficiently explored and exploited. Dr. Harold G. White's work on the White–Juday warp-field interferometer experiment will use the gravitic technologies already discovered and still developing to finally make a highly modified Alcubierre drive popularly called a warp drive. All this well before 2100 or, as the one photo shows, assembly and launch in 2086.