Foreshadowing and Fate points

[Trodax]

When Conan 2nd edition came out, I dutifully bought it. However, since that time I have not had the opportunity to play any Conan, so I've never tried out any of the small rules changes in play.

One new thing in 2nd edition is that there are now some more uses for Fate points, and there is a Foreshadowing mechanic, which is a way for characters to regain Fate points. I have two questions regarding this:

1) For those of you who have tested Foreshadowing in play, how does it work out? I like the general idea behind the mechanic (that players can leave some input on what they want the game to focus on), but I think the implementation feels a bit wonky. My concern is that, since Fate points are so sweet to get, players might be encouraged to Foreshadow events that are very likely to happen ("I get attacked" as opposed to "My lover betrays me and runs off with my best friend"). Also, it seems to me it might have been cool if you only received Fate points when something bad happened to your character ("I loose my magical sword" as opposed to "I find a magical sword"), with the number of Fate points depending on the severity of the event. This would let the players make a trade-off instead of just getting freebies for something beneficial happening to their character (Spirit of the Century does something like this, if you are aware of that game). Don't know, though, Foreshadowing might work out better than I think in play.

2) It seems that Fate points are now meant to be much more common in 2nd edition (because Foreshadowing lets you renew them). Has this changed how players spend them? Are any of the uses of Fate points other than Left For Dead more common? (In my 1st edition games, Left For Dead was always the only thing Fate points were ever used for.)

 

[Majestic7]

I haven't tested it - but it was the thing I liked the least about the Second Edition, along the awful poison rules. (I didn't buy the book since it doesn't seem to give anything worth the cost since I have Atlantean Edition.) The example of Foreshadowing, with Conan in the Tower of the Elephant, seemed very trivial at least. I think every player with half a brain could make that kind of guesses for each episode of the game and be right at least once, thus gaining one FP per game.

The trouble with new uses of Fate Points in the Second Edition is that they are outright worse than the old uses. Destiny and Left for Dead are simply so much better than a reroll or ignoring Terror that there is really no point in using those if you have only a few Fate Points. On the other hand, if Fate Points are abundant, then you can have players _always_ getting out of everything alive. Just spend a FP to Left for Dead, another for Destiny that a tribe of friendly nomads finds the dying character and treats him or the like.

Hero Points in the Acheronian Edition use pretty much the "secondary" use options for Fate Points. Since every character usually has one Hero Point per scene or week of downtime, they will actually use them for stuff like ignoring Terror or rerolls instead of hoarding them as extra lives.

 

[Trodax]

Your thoughts on this are pretty much identical to mine, Majestic7 (and I liked the Hero points in your Acheronian edition). Anyone else who has tried Foreshadowing in play and liked it (or hated it)?

 

[Krushnak]

One thing that alot of people dont seem to get is that the foreshadowing is for an entire adventure, not just one session.

"i get attacked" is too vague, they have to be a bit more specific than that. something like "i get attacked by a blood mad lion".

The idea is that the players will use up the fate points they get during the adventure.

 

[Supplement Four]

The foreshadowing thing is, in my opinion, one of the few weak game rules in Conan. It's just..er..silly.

A good GM has his finger on the pulse of his game. He knows what the players want--what they like. A mechanic is not needed to force it. And, like a good book that you can't put down but don't know where it's taking you, many players really don't know what they want--they just know if they like what they see. It's exciting when the delivery is more than what they were expecting.

So, yeah. I think that foreshadowing rule is trash and should be placed in said can.

 

[flatscan]

I've used Foreshadowing successfully in my campaign since 2e came out. Before the start of the adventure, I have my players write the 3 things they want to occur. For the last adventure, one of my players wrote, "encounter a fencing master." He wrote that because he wants his character to start trying some of the Fencing styles the game has in it. Knowing this, I gave one of the villains who was already described by the stats I was using as a great Finesse sword fighter, a fencing style. The encounter happened, the villain had a couple more tricks up his sleeve than he would have had otherwise and my player got the Fate Point, plus the Stygian character had now seen a Fencing style in action. Now, not everything my players put in the foreshadowing occurs. Some things don't fit the adventure I'm running, so I pick and choose and don't let the foreshadowing "force" anything. But it adds some additional flavor to my encounters that causes the players to get excited when it comes up. It also allows me to see what type of encounters the players are wanting. I have my finger on the pulse of my game, but sometimes the barbarians in my group want to try a specific type of social encounter. I weave this kind of input into my existing adventure plan and IMO it benefits my game. YMMV.

 

[flatscan]

The trouble with new uses of Fate Points in the Second Edition is that they are outright worse than the old uses. Destiny and Left for Dead are simply so much better than a reroll or ignoring Terror that there is really no point in using those if you have only a few Fate Points. On the other hand, if Fate Points are abundant, then you can have players _always_ getting out of everything alive. Just spend a FP to Left for Dead, another for Destiny that a tribe of friendly nomads finds the dying character and treats him or the like.

My game may have more Fate Points flying than yours (I allow Foreshadowing, I offer a Fate Point for anybody that brings food or beer to the table). The reroll gets used, but generally only on REALLY important rolls. Ignoring Terror has been used as well, because when a Black Fiend is glaring down at you and you're already hurting from past fights, you REALLY don't want to be a deer in headlights. And they always save a single Fate Point for Left for Dead. :wink:

 

[Style]

I offer a Fate Point for anybody that brings food or beer to the table

I don't play D20, but I do this with "Bennies" in the Savage World game I'm running.

 

[Trodax]

I've used Foreshadowing successfully in my campaign since 2e came out.

Cool! Could you give some more examples of stuff your players have Foreshadowed (other than the fencing master)? Do they sometimes Foreshadow stuff that is specifically positive or negative for their character ("I find a horse" versus "I get swindled out of my horse in a card game"), or is it mostly neutral stuff (like meeting the fencing master)?

Now, not everything my players put in the foreshadowing occurs. Some things don't fit the adventure I'm running, so I pick and choose and don't let the foreshadowing "force" anything.

One concern I have with the mechanic is that it doesn't really specify what you get to Foreshadow. Consider for example that I have one player how is lazy and mostly Foreshadows rather simple stuff ("I get ambushed"), and another player whose Foreshadowing is much more elaborate ("the powerful noble gets spiteful as he covets a girl who has the hots for my hunky barbarian"). The things Foreshadowed by the lazy player might be very easy to weave into an adventure, or they might be things that would happen regardless, while the Foreshadowings made by the player who put a lot more work into it are trickier, and may not fit the adventure at all. So in the end it may turn out that the lazy player is receiving more Fate points, when I think, if anything, it should be the other way around.

So how have you handled this? Do you try to make sure all players get roughly equal amounts of Fate points, no matter what they Foreshadow?

My game may have more Fate Points flying than yours (I allow Foreshadowing, I offer a Fate Point for anybody that brings food or beer to the table). The reroll gets used, but generally only on REALLY important rolls. Ignoring Terror has been used as well, because when a Black Fiend is glaring down at you and you're already hurting from past fights, you REALLY don't want to be a deer in headlights. And they always save a single Fate Point for Left for Dead. :wink:

Out of curiosity, how many Fate points get spent in a typical session of yours? And how commonly is Left For Dead used in your game? Is it like one or more PC's is Left For Dead after almost every combat, or does it only happen occasionally?

I'm contemplating trying out a more abundant use of Fate points for my next Conan game. My concern is that the players might feel very safe, as they know they can always be Left For Dead no matter what happens. The countermeasure to that would be to ramp up the opposition, so that fights are very tough and Fate points are really needed, but I think things could get a little silly if people are Left For Dead all to often.

 

[Ichabod]

We don't use the foreshadowing rules because, as said, while they sound like an interesting concept, the implementation is wonky. What value they have could be done without bothering to mechanicize. Just simply talk to the GM about what you want to see in adventures.

I'm big on narrative stuff, but I just don't see how to formalize the foreshadowing. As said, different players will do wildly differing things.

As for FPs in our play, we have extremely high variance in their use. Quite often, none get spent. Then, some session is ridiculously lethal and they get burned out like crazy. Though, we also have a system for one-shot bennies for bringing food, doing writeups, and whatnot that give rerolls or +2's to rolls, and those get burned out all of the time, usually their use prevents the need for LFD.

 

[flatscan]

Cool! Could you give some more examples of stuff your players have Foreshadowed (other than the fencing master)? Do they sometimes Foreshadow stuff that is specifically positive or negative for their character ("I find a horse" versus "I get swindled out of my horse in a card game"), or is it mostly neutral stuff (like meeting the fencing master)?

The Foreshadowing varies from player to player. It can be as simple as "I will meet another Hyrkanian," but something like that only gives a Fate Point if you're in a place like Ophir as opposed to Hyrkania. It can also be detailed such as, "I will have to defend my right to be commander of the mercenary company." I've told my players whatever they foreshadow will involve an encounter. So in the instance of meeting another Hyrkanian it could either be a social situation about trading goods and trying to haggle the best price or meeting another Hyrkanian whose clansmen had been killed by the PC and he wants revenge. Same for the mercenary company, although blood is likely to be shed in that type of situation during the Hyborian Age. And yeah, the player may get something good out of it like equipment, which again will be an encounter. A weapon or horse can be taken from a fallen foe, stolen from a shop, etc. Now, my players know that it'll never be an easy encounter when Fate Points are on the line, I'll either send superior numbers or levels of foes or make some circumstance where the odds are against them like being in prison, unarmored, and weaponless. The PCs will have to earn the Fate Point.

One concern I have with the mechanic is that it doesn't really specify what you get to Foreshadow. Consider for example that I have one player how is lazy and mostly Foreshadows rather simple stuff ("I get ambushed"), and another player whose Foreshadowing is much more elaborate ("the powerful noble gets spiteful as he covets a girl who has the hots for my hunky barbarian"). The things Foreshadowed by the lazy player might be very easy to weave into an adventure, or they might be things that would happen regardless, while the Foreshadowings made by the player who put a lot more work into it are trickier, and may not fit the adventure at all. So in the end it may turn out that the lazy player is receiving more Fate points, when I think, if anything, it should be the other way around.

So how have you handled this? Do you try to make sure all players get roughly equal amounts of Fate points, no matter what they Foreshadow?

That vagueness in description of what can be Foreshadowed can be a GMs best tool. Sure, they can Foreshadow just about anything, but I interpret how that will be turned into an encounter. It adds another level of player input, and provides an encounter that the player who Foreshadowed it will get excited about when he sees the object or situation of his desire.

I don't worry about divvying up Foreshadowing FPs equally. I look at each one and try my best to make an encounter out of it. I have the whole adventure to work those encounters in so I place them where I think it will best fit with the pace of the adventure. Some Foreshadowing can't be fit in and so I'll ask the player to write another one.

Out of curiosity, how many Fate points get spent in a typical session of yours? And how commonly is Left For Dead used in your game? Is it like one or more PC's is Left For Dead after almost every combat, or does it only happen occasionally?

Fate Points get spent at about 1-2 FP per player per 6 hour session. The majority of FP spent per session is typically on critical Rerolls first, Left for Dead next, then Max Weapon Damage, Terror Saves, Get an Idea, then the others. Left for Dead happens 1-2 times per 6 hour session total. But of course, it can't be spent on being beheaded or some other no-way-in-hell anyone could survive that situation.

I'm contemplating trying out a more abundant use of Fate points for my next Conan game. My concern is that the players might feel very safe, as they know they can always be Left For Dead no matter what happens. The countermeasure to that would be to ramp up the opposition, so that fights are very tough and Fate points are really needed, but I think things could get a little silly if people are Left For Dead all to often.

See above about no-way-in-hell anyone could survive situations. My players don't feel safe because of the Fate Points they have. They know they'll be challenged, as can be evidenced during game play and in their character reflections, like this PCs, And I don't consider the use of Fate Points silly. This is a Sword & Sorcery GAME for Crom's sake! The point is for everyone at the table to have fun. Losing a character is rarely fun and besides REH didn't lose Conan in his fiction. Remember, the PCs are the stars of your chronicles.

The only real hard rules I've added concerning Fate Points can be seen here.

 

[Trodax]

Thanks a bunch for you input, flatscan; it's of great value!

And I don't consider the use of Fate Points silly. This is a Sword & Sorcery GAME for Crom's sake! The point is for everyone at the table to have fun. Losing a character is rarely fun and besides REH didn't lose Conan in his fiction. Remember, the PCs are the stars of your chronicles.

Oh, I absolutely agree. And I think Left For Dead is really cool, because it can lead to cool twists in the story where a character gets knocked out and imprisoned or whatever. I just think it's best if there is a balance, so characters are Left For Dead occasionally, but you don't end up with: "Yawn, well I guess my character is Left For Dead again. Third time today, that is."

The only real hard rules I've added concerning Fate Points can be seen here.

Having a hard cap on the number of Fate points you can have sounds like a very good idea if Fate points are handed out more abundantly. I'll definitely use that if I go this route.

 

[flatscan]

Thanks a bunch for you input, flatscan; it's of great value!

You are welcome. Happy gaming!

 

[Violetsaber]

In my experience, the players I GM for use fairly decent examples of foreshadowing, such as "I see a whole group of ugly women", or "I catch a shark". We've joked that we should just write down something like: "I take a step forward", or the like, but everyone knows that's a rather silly cop-out, and I wouldn't allow it.

This use of foreshadowing actually helps me GM'ing. While I certainly am sure to arrive with a clear idea in mind, and a pile of NPC's to back me up, it can be alot of fun to try and figure out how to make certain events happen for my players. For example, the fellow who wanted to catch a shark was effectively a pit slave on a floating arena that catered to the noble class. Little did he realize that most of this session was going to be a grand melee between all the fighters, as requested by a rather corpulent and odious noble who wore women's robes and makeup. How would he possibly go fishing?

Well, he was swinging on one of the lanyards, and failed his roll. Therefore, the rope swung overboard and dropped him into the water. Little did he know that one of the bodies that had fallen overboard earlier had attracted a giant shark, which attacked the rope and began working it's way up to him. Therefore, not only did he catch a shark and gain a fate point, but I was able to complicate the massive battle even more with the inclusion of a shark!

Now, when it comes to players getting "lazy" or just figuring they'll throw in a fate point to save themselves, I don't worry too much. My players are fairly paranoid anyway, and good storytelling can keep players on thier toes, even if they do have a failsafe. I would also say, too, that Conan differs from other RPG's in that your players should kinda feel like a Conan-esque character. No matter how badly things LOOK like they're going, the glory of REH's work is that you always know he's going to escape. This doesn't detract from the stories, it makes you more excited to see how the hero survives.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[Der Rote Baron]

How many fate points do you give to your players. In my understanding fate points are a rather precious thing so that I don't give them out very easily or often. But the effect that that has is that they are usually only used for "Left for dead" - the last straw that a pc can grasp when his life is mostly over.
So virtually no "cool stuff"'s going on in my campaign using fate points.

Actually a little more help in the rulebook (or in an S&P article) would be nice.

 

[Der Rote Baron]

Here guys - came up with my own homebrew addtion to Fate Points and how to use them (with inspirational help by the old TSR Conan AD&D Modules, Warhammer Frp and Mutants & Masterminds):

CONAN: Fate & Fortune

Each player has Fate and Fortune Points - one Fotune Point for each Point of Fate. Fortune Points are regenerated by day, usually at daw, but any player defined time will be okay.

Use of Fortune-Points:
• Reroll (as per rules)
• + 5 to Dodge/ Parry (as per rules)
• Mighty Blow (as per rules)
• Extra Half Action – the character gains an extra move or
standard action
• Seize Initiative - +20 to Initiative

Use of Fate-Points
• Left for dead (as per rules)
• Resist Terror (as per rules)
• Repentance (as per rules)
• Make a Critical Save – the PC crits on a failed save (thus
surviving a decapitating blow or Death Touch spell)

I haven't playtested it yet but it should make for more heroic actions. The Option to critically save makes it possible to Death Touch characters without killing them because they rolled low on their save (and again on theit reroll). So, you can use them and "kill" theit Fate Points instead.

 

[Ichabod]

Resist Terror should be a fortune not a fate.

I've proposed to our group to take the +5 DV and the Terrorkill effects and have those be temp Fate Pointed. I'm leery of Mighty Blow being too easy, though. MB is fine for people who built their characters wrong, but it makes it even harder to balance against good combat characters.

Having an equal number of Fate and Fortune seems like it would cause people to hoard their Fate to build up their Fortune while punishing people for spending Fate except in desperation or for people who are just unlucky.

 

[Trodax]

Each player has Fate and Fortune Points - one Fotune Point for each Point of Fate. Fortune Points are regenerated by day, usually at daw, but any player defined time will be okay.

I totally agree with you that the game would benefit if it had some form of temporary points that could be spent on things more minor than Left For Dead. However, I'm not sure I like them being tied to Fate points like this (Fate/Fortune points work well in Warhammer FRP, but I'm not so sure for a Conan game). What it creates is a form of death spiral, meaning that characters who spend Fate points to survive get less Fortune points, which in turn means that they are even more likely to get in trouble and have to spend Fate points to survive. Also, because having those daily Fortune points is of such great benefit, I don't think players will ever spend Fate points unless they absolutely have to. In other words, they will only be spent on Left For Dead (this is basically how it works in Warhammer FRP, because there the only use of Fate points is a variant of Left For Dead). Instead, I think it would be better if Fate and Fortune points were just tracked separately, perhaps like Majestic7 did it in his Acheronian Edition (in the first post).

Anyway, regardless of that, here are some comments on the various uses of Fate/Fortune points:

• Mighty Blow (as per rules)

I think this is too powerful to be a temporary Fortune point. Maximum damage can be absolutely devastating if gained on the right attack, basically killing anything in the game (a critical hit with a two-handed weapon, or a high-level sneak attack). While this can be cool if played at the right moment in a story, I think it should cost more than just a point that you get back the next day (otherwise you'll probably see it being used quite often).

• Extra Half Action – the character gains an extra move or
standard action

This one would have to be defined a little bit more. Are you absolutely free to take any standard or move action (for example, could you make a full attack action, followed by a standard attack)?

• Seize Initiative - +20 to Initiative

Do you have to use this at the start of combat, or could you use it in the middle of a fight, changing the initiative order? (If the latter, that could let you take two turns in a row, which I'm not sure is a good idea.)

• Resist Terror (as per rules)

Like Ichabod, I definitely think this should be a temporary Fortune point, rather than a permanent Fate point.

• Make a Critical Save – the PC crits on a failed save (thus
surviving a decapitating blow or Death Touch spell)

Hmmm, this one creates a little weirdness because it means a character killed by massive damage could survive and still be in the fight if he used the Fate point on this instead of Left For Dead.

BTW, with the normal rules I would let a character who was killed by Death Touch be Left For Dead if he spent a Fate point (perhaps with a hand-shaped, black mark permanently scarred into his chest).

 

[Jotenbjorn]

One variant I've been contemplating for foreshadowing is keeping it secret from the DM. RAW, the DM decides who gets fate points by simply including someone's forshadowing into the game. Trying to accomodate everyone in the same adventure can just get silly, and trying to keep it even in the long run would require book keeping. Instead, each player writes down an event on a slip of paper before a session. If the event happens, and the GM considers it significant, a fate point is earned.

 

[Supplement Four]

One variant I've been contemplating for foreshadowing is keeping it secret from the DM. RAW, the DM decides who gets fate points by simply including someone's forshadowing into the game. Trying to accomodate everyone in the same adventure can just get silly, and trying to keep it even in the long run would require book keeping. Instead, each player writes down an event on a slip of paper before a session. If the event happens, and the GM considers it significant, a fate point is earned.

I really don't like the idea of the Foreshadowing rule at all.

But, your idea is quite good.



What I don't like about Foreshadowing is that it's gamey. It's not immersive at all. It adds nothing to the story or the characters. It adds nothing to combat.

I can find no reason to use it.