Fleet Combat System - Movement

[AnotherDilbert]

Attack range; we have three cases:
1 Target in adjacent Sector
2 Attacker is closer to the fixed point than the target
3 All other attacks

Examples:
Both attacker and target is in sector B4VL: Case 3, Range is Very Long.

Attacker is in B2M, defender in B1L: Case 2, Range is Very Long.
Reverse, Attacker is in B1L, defender in B2M: Case 3, Range is Long

Defender is in B1L, attacker is a fighter. No case offers less than Medium range, the fighter cannot attack.


I think the range system need a little work.

 

[Nerhesi]

Do you have a proposal? I haven't had time to look at the range chart yet.

We do need to address any weirdness that arises (such as ships being abnormally closer or further)

I would think we want an option for attacker in the same quadrant (aka fighters) which immediately indicate it is "dog fight range" - so that way they could attack.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Something like this might work:

Same Sector: The range is Adjacent.

Adjacent Sector: The range is the lowest Range Band either ships is in.

All other attacks: The range is the highest Range Band either ship is in.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Since we have changed to an absolute coordinate system, fighters will not be able to close in on an enemy, unless they lose the initiative. E.g. a 9G ship in any Medium sector can move to any Close or Medium sector with a 8 Gturn move, a fighter who wins the initiative must move first and anticipate which sector the ship is going to move to (and the ship will move to some other sector).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It will be difficult to snipe with missiles from Distant range. It you are in a Close sector and the enemy lurks in a Distant sector, you can move to any Very Long sector adjacent to the enemy with 16 Gturns.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

What does "adjacent sector" mean in this system, secrets that share a side or sectors that share a corner?
E.g. Are A1C and B2M adjacent?

 

[Nerhesi]

So I'm looking at some examples, and adjacent sector works fine in most cases (still an abstract).

I think over-all, I have 3 big concerns:

A) We need something for "adjacent" range - which seems easily defined as "anything in the same quadrant".

B) Unless ships are adjacent. Different quadrants should increase range band by +1 as well (see below).

C) While range is okish, movement will be a bit of an annoyance. Take two targets at long range but in opposite quadrants, according to RAW the range is Long. However, the thrust needed to close is probably double what the base rules state. I think this is fixed by the above point (b).

Thoughts?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

C) While range is okish, movement will be a bit of an annoyance. Take two targets at long range but in opposite quadrants, according to RAW the range is Long. However, the thrust needed to close is probably double what the base rules state. I think this is fixed by the above point (b).

Thoughts?

Actually to move from B2L to C2L (or any other Long sector) is 23 Gturns, quite close to the basic system, where it took 18 Gturns to move from Long to Adjacent, much less than the 43 Gturns to move from Very Long to Adjacent.

So if both ships are in a Long sector, the range should probably be Long.

It's very cheap to move outward, from Close to Long is only 6Gturns. This makes it difficult to keep the range high and snipe out of the enemies range.

 

[Nerhesi]

If we take A4VL to B1VL - 1 ship closing with another that isn't changing quadrants.

Weapon Range: Very Long (In base game, 25G)
Distance to close: Long + Medium + Close + Close + Medium + Long + Very Long= 10 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 5 + 10 + 25.

32G needed to get right next up to the target (adjacent quadrant). The entire time you're closing, your firing range is Very Long - except when you finally make it into the adjacent sector where the range becomes Long. Normally, spending 32G is more than enough to get you right into Adjacent range...
57G needed to get into the same quadrant.

If we take A1L to D1L - as above just closer starting range:

Weapon Range: Long (In base game, 10G)
Distance to close: Medium + Close + Close (maybe +Close again depending on what adjacent sector is as you point out) + Medium + Long = 5 + 1 + 1 + 5 + 10

12G needed to get right next up to the target (adjacent quadrant). The entire time you're closing, your firing range is Long - except when you finally make it into the adjacent sector where the range becomes Medium. Normally, spending 12G is more than enough to get you right into Adjacent range...
22G needed to get into the same quadrant.

Based on the above numbers showing how much "Gs" are required to "reach" the other target, I WOULD say it is only logical that "All other attacks" also use the same rule to make firing distance equal to the Highest Range Band +1.

The problem here is that then while you're closing.. the entire time.. it's basically super long range, then BAM you're adjacent.. (of course that BAM is a 10 or 25G bam.. but still)..

Hrmmm.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You expend Gturns to leave a sector, not to enter a sector.

A4VL to B1VL:
25 + 10 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 5 = 47 Gturns to get to the adjacent sector (Long Range).
25 + 10 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 5 + 10 = 57 Gturns to get to the same sector as the target (Adjacent Range).

Basic: From Very Long to Adjacent:
25 + 10 + 5 + 2 + 1 = 43 Gturns
Basic: From Distant to Adjacent:
50 + 25 + 10 + 5 + 2 + 1 = 93 Gturns.

57 Gturns is closer to 43 than to 93 Gturns.


Consider the case with Force A in A1C and Force B in A5D. Same quadrant, range is Distant.
Force A now expends 1 Gturn to move to B1C. Different quadrant, range is Very Distant? Not good.

 

[Nerhesi]

Thanks for reminding me of expending thrust to move out of a hex

Hrmmm..... so with both targets at VL range in opposite quadrants - We have two weird scenarios:

a) I start at weapon range Very Long - this is fine. Both ships are in the VL band but on opposite sides.
b) Now my attacker moves in closer to the target... and then the range increases?? Because the attack will be made at 1 range band higher than the highest range? So by moving closer.. my range goes to Distant?? That is a big problem...


Other scenario:

a) I start at weapon range Very Long - this is fine. Both ships are in the VL band but on opposite sides.
b) I expend 25 thrust and I still remain at Very Long
c) I keep expending thrust and I'm always at Very Long?
d) Right up until I expend that 47G to get to the quadrant next door.. then I'm only at long?


I think we need a much simpler way of doing this. Perhaps:

Different Quadrants = Range is highest band +1

Same Quadrant = Range is highest band?

Adjacent = Range is lowest band?

Is this ok?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Hrmmm..... so with both targets at VL range in opposite quadrants - We have two weird scenarios:

a) I start at weapon range Very Long - this is fine. Both ships are in the VL band but on opposite sides.
b) Now my attacker moves in closer to the target... and then the range increases?? Because the attack will be made at 1 range band higher than the highest range? So by moving closer.. my range goes to Distant?? That is a big problem...

Yes that is ridiculous, hence:

Something like this might work:

Same Sector: The range is Adjacent.

Adjacent Sector: The range is the lowest Range Band either ships is in.

All other attacks: The range is the highest Range Band either ship is in.

Never add to the range.

Other scenario:

a) I start at weapon range Very Long - this is fine. Both ships are in the VL band but on opposite sides.
b) I expend 25 thrust and I still remain at Very Long
c) I keep expending thrust and I'm always at Very Long?
d) Right up until I expend that 47G to get to the quadrant next door.. then I'm only at long?

Yes, if the enemy lurks in a Very Long sector, the range will be Very Long, Long, or Adjacent (same sector). This is almost a necessary consequence of the varying scale of the Fleet Manoeuvre Chart.

I think we need a much simpler way of doing this. Perhaps:

Different Quadrants = Range is highest band +1

Same Quadrant = Range is highest band?

Adjacent = Range is lowest band?

Is this ok?

Never add to the range, it leads to the ridiculous situation in your first case.

 

[Nerhesi]

Never add to the range, it leads to the ridiculous situation in your first case.

But I'm only adding to range if they're in different quadrants? Or are you of the mind that "eff that scenario" and treat it all is one.. therefore:

Range = Highest Range Band

Only 1 exception, Adjacent = Lowest Range Band

I feel if we do this we stress long range weapons EVEN more...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Something like this might work:

Same Sector: The range is Adjacent.

Adjacent Sector: The range is the lowest Range Band either ships is in.

All other attacks: The range is the highest Range Band either ship is in.

Ignore the quadrants, it's easy to move between the quadrants through the centre.

It's easy to close the range from the centre, but if the enemy insists on staying in a Distant sector the range can only be Distant, Very Long, or Adjacent. You can always catch up with the enemy from a shorter range.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If anything it makes short-ranged weapons like Ortillery more viable. Even without an acceleration advantage you can always catch up with the enemy and go to Adjacent range.

 

[Nerhesi]

I'm in agreement then. Sum up what the range-finding rules are then?

Adjacent = Lowest Range band
Anything else = Highest Range band?

Concur?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Agree.

And Same sector is Adjacent rangeband.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Well, I have enacted this... but I am not really happy with it

My basic problem is that same sector = Adjacent. If you are both in the same Sector but at Distant, you are in a HUGE area of space...

 

[Nerhesi]

Yeah Matt - I think with the nice radial fleet movement system, there is going to be some sacrifices unfortuantely. we ran through many scenarios but this is the best fit