Fleet Carrier in campaigns

[stepan.razin]

The Drakh have something far worse, however, for replacing their lost Raiders: sending back a ship to the home bases.

When you do this, you get to replace the entire compliment of Raiders for free. This is huge. You can, for free, get 12 Skirmish ships every 2 turns (if you do this with the Amu.)

Yes, it's a huge pain in the butt --- you lose the services of an Armageddon-level ship to pull this off. However, the rewards are SO worth it; in the endgame, a Drakh fleet may be able to get 3 War per turn, free, simply by cycling 3 Amus back and forth. It's a lot of work to get your fleet to 12 Battle, but far from impossible.

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I do agree with Da Boss. Gaim total replacement is outright exploitable. How to use it?

Attack a target.
T1: Keep your fleet behind terrain, and disgorge all your fighters.
T2: Fighters begin attack runs, Cruisers pop out long enough to bomb enemy flights and escort ships (if extra firepower is available).
T3: One Gaim ship creates a jump point. Fleet prepares to exit. Fighters perform first suicide run.
T4: Gaim either All Stop to stay or leave through Jump Point depending on tactics. Ships that stay bomb again. Fighter suicide runs complete.
T5: Gaim ships leave, fighters finish suicide runs.

Concept: the point that he gets for winning a fight don't begin to pay for fleet repairs and replacement light ships that are killable by the suicide fighter runs. You, on the other hand, lost almost nothing -- all your fighters come back!

You don't care if you won the fight or not. You don't care in the slightest! You'll just win by attrition. Forget the terrain -- you only care that your fleet will continue to grow, and his won't.

This is a major campaign balance flaw.

Would you even need to bring an Amu to the battle? can just send the 'contents" into the battle.

 

[katadder]

you can only replace the ships on the Amu though and unless Amu is destroyed you cannot seperate its cargo from it to add to your fleet list.

 

[Taran]

So much for that idea...

 

[CZuschlag]

Given that you pretty much have to lose a campaign battle just to get the benefit of the contents --- that's a very very expensive price to pay. With the old Campaign pricing, it's totally worth it. Now, not so much.

 

[stepan.razin]

I do agree with Da Boss. Gaim total replacement is outright exploitable. How to use it?

Attack a target.
T1: Keep your fleet behind terrain, and disgorge all your fighters.
T2: Fighters begin attack runs, Cruisers pop out long enough to bomb enemy flights and escort ships (if extra firepower is available).
T3: One Gaim ship creates a jump point. Fleet prepares to exit. Fighters perform first suicide run.
T4: Gaim either All Stop to stay or leave through Jump Point depending on tactics. Ships that stay bomb again. Fighter suicide runs complete.
T5: Gaim ships leave, fighters finish suicide runs.

Concept: the point that he gets for winning a fight don't begin to pay for fleet repairs and replacement light ships that are killable by the suicide fighter runs. You, on the other hand, lost almost nothing -- all your fighters come back!

This is a major campaign balance flaw.

Not sure if that would actually work in practice. What is the other fleet doing for 5 turns? Especially when the Gaim ships pop out to take a shot. What if the terrain is not what you expected?

Depending on the opponent's fleet, those fighters may or may not do any significant damage by themselves. Isnt there a rule now about how may fighters can ram a single ship in 1 turn?

You could always attack a Gaim player.. if he leaves, he looses 15RR. Also, this tactic will almost always backfire as players will get pissed off and start attacking Gaim.

Anyways, if this rule doesnt exist, then the Gaim are not playable in the campaign until they are reworked once again.

 

[Ike]

The Drakh have something far worse, however, for replacing their lost Raiders: sending back a ship to the home bases.

is there some post some where that state lose of fighters and 'auxillary' craft is considered damage

we dont have this problem anymore becuase the guy that played drahk is more into flames of war but honestly the rule states "it will be returned to your fleet roster as normal fully repaired of any damage."

then there is a whole section on buying fighters for replacements, but thats definitely under the REINFORCEMENT section not the repair section

 

[JTL109]

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I do agree with Da Boss. Gaim total replacement is outright exploitable. How to use it?

Attack a target.
T1: Keep your fleet behind terrain, and disgorge all your fighters.
T2: Fighters begin attack runs, Cruisers pop out long enough to bomb enemy flights and escort ships (if extra firepower is available).
T3: One Gaim ship creates a jump point. Fleet prepares to exit. Fighters perform first suicide run.
T4: Gaim either All Stop to stay or leave through Jump Point depending on tactics. Ships that stay bomb again. Fighter suicide runs complete.
T5: Gaim ships leave, fighters finish suicide runs.

Concept: the point that he gets for winning a fight don't begin to pay for fleet repairs and replacement light ships that are killable by the suicide fighter runs. You, on the other hand, lost almost nothing -- all your fighters come back!

You don't care if you won the fight or not. You don't care in the slightest! You'll just win by attrition. Forget the terrain -- you only care that your fleet will continue to grow, and his won't.

This is a major campaign balance flaw.

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In a compaign setting you will lose the battle/target for a total loss of
25 RR points. How many times could you repeat this and have any
chance at all in the compaign? In a one-time fight just how will
you guarentee something to hide behind, how will you make you
enemy not come after you? Your tactics are operating in a void,
without an enemy to deal with.

 

[Da Boss]

CZG stated that he was talking about when a Gaim player attacks a target not when defending - loosing a battle in this way means a +5 RR bonus to your opponent and non loss to you - it depends on how much damage you inflict with your expendable drones.

Also in some scenarios - fighters can claim wins on their own.

In some ways its a bit like the Shadows / Vorlons - often killing the enemy is more efficent that winning locations - except they can't affford to die due to replacement costs being doubled. They can afford however to survive a battle on 1 damage pt left 8)

 

[l33tpenguin]

CZG stated that he was talking about when a Gaim player attacks a target not when defending - loosing a battle in this way means a +5 RR bonus to your opponent and non loss to you - it depends on how much damage you inflict with your expendable drones.

Also in some scenarios - fighters can claim wins on their own.

In some ways its a bit like the Shadows / Vorlons - often killing the enemy is more efficent that winning locations - except they can't affford to die due to replacement costs being doubled. They can afford however to survive a battle on 1 damage pt left 8)

Watching Shadows rip into your fleet then just out before you can kill them is a real pain in campaigns...

Of course, it is very fitting for the shadows, not as much the vorlons, as they favored hit and run terror tactics during the war

 

[Lokai]

what exactly is the reasoning behind shadows/vorlons paying twice the RR for fighters? i understand it with the ships as they are completely repaired every campaign turn which can prove to be a real pain to deal with if you just barely don't destroy a ship. i'd figure it simply wouldn't be worth buying fighters for either race.

I suppose if a shadow player has enough ships he could just cycle young/ancient ships back and forth to replenish fighters for free, however this option isn't available to vorlons unless they get motherly traits in abundance on single ships.

 

[Grunvald]

This was mentioned in another post that we could arguee the fact that vorlon and shadows fighters dont get AA or SR and so why should we be paying double for them!

Personally i cant see the point myself!

And where does it say that a vorlon or shadow ship replaces its fighters at the end of a campaign turn ??

You repair all damage but have to replace all lost fighters, even if you have got the maternal ability!!!

 

[Lokai]

was refering to the sending it back to base option, while they don't need it for repairs i suppose they could opt to not have the ship available for action, send it home and it will come back as new (with fighters). i don't recall anything saying that shadow/vorlons can't utilize this option. but the fighters would be the only reason to do so, and then only if you actually had enough ships that you could do without the ship itself. It'd be nice if they made it so the fighters are normal cost as they do in fact not benefit from the racial abilities that DO warrant the ships costing double in campaigns.....hoping for the best, just have to wait and see what comes when they put up more changes

 

[Grunvald]

Only cause i got the rule book open on the scenario section in front of me!!!
P85 Repairs

ships with Self-Repairing trait will automatically recover all lost Damage points (though not Crew or Critical Hits) before their next battle.

Damage does not include fighters!!!

 

[Lokai]

mmm now where did i get that idea...although based on previous posts I'm not the ONLY person operating under the assumption that it also refills fighters so i feel a little less retarded

 

[Da Boss]

In a Campaign Gaim get ALL their craft back

Any ship with the Carrier trait gets 2 flights of fightrs back

Ships with Self repair get all damage back and repair all criticals

 

[Ike]

I still want to know how 'fully repaired of any damage' constitues I get my figthers/huge hanger craft back if I send it home

 

[Da Boss]

er yeah see what you mean the campaign section does not seem to say that - but we have always played that = maybe its faqed / rulemastered

waits hopefully for more knowledgable friends to pop in

 

[Ike]

well its definitely not in the offical faq

and the only rulemaster stuff I found before I got bored all pretty much said the same thing
"Well in 1stEd..."

are we perpetuating a 1stEd rule just cause we didnt read the 2nd ed rules well enough?

 

[Greg Smith]

I don't think it has been rulesmastered or FAQed.

It does seem to be common sense (a dangerous phrase I know) that a ship that is fully repaired also has lost fighters replaced. I can only imagine that fighters would be in short supply only in the times of all out warfare.

 

[Grunvald]

I would agree that a ship sent back home for repairs would have its fighters replaced as well, but to send a ship back with huge hangers and get those ships replaced as well seems way wrong!

I never played 1st ed so i cant comment on it being a carry over rule but from reading the wording on p85 of the rule book id say that if you got your fighters back in 1st ed then you have carried a rule over!

Unfortunately the wording on p85 doesnt say you get your fighters back!!!