Fleet Battles: Where?

[dragoner]

Solution is a pre-emptive strike to cripple the opposing (interstellar) mobile forces.

The objective wouldn't actually be the planet, but any warship capable of interstellar travel.

There will be intelligence as to where the fleets are, and to which where they are going. Systems will have strategic points, similar to regular battlefields, where the fighting will most likely occur. Surprise is always good, but it is not something one should count on, maskirovka is better.

Yes, fleet anchorages, and static stations and such will always be known. But where the fleet, or portions of it, are going to be will always iffy for the most part. The Japanese had expected to take out the US carriers at Pearl Harbor and had to make do with sinking battleships. Their intelligence had thought they were going to be in port, or at least 1-2. Fog of war is always a bitch.

Though making a series of strikes on an opposing system to cut down their forces does make for some potential good tactics. The only problem is that the attacking ships would need to be coming from a very close position and have enough fuel to jump in, attack, then jump out. They might get away with doing a refueling run one time, but probably not twice - assuming the defenders had the ships to properly defend refueling sources in the system. By the books it's not supposed to take a fleet of SDB's to run someone's day when refueling. How exactly all that works has never been made clear.

Had the Japanese attacked the fueling facilities at Pearl, it would have had a greater effect than even taking out the carriers, which were neutralized at Coral Sea and Midway anyways; but greater production would carry the day.

Harry the enemy, yes.

Ultimately, it will be logistics, it always is.

An organized program of deception is easier to control than hoping for surprise, which may or may not come.

Planets and gas giants, those will be the objectives, where ever a fleet jumps in. A defending fleet also might jump away if it finds itself outmatched, before the battle. Planets might hold out if they can.

 

[Reynard]

Just looked at the Fifth Frontier rules and there is a sequence for system space combat which seems to represent Traveller combat. When an invasion force enters the system (and is detected), combat between capital squadrons and fleets occurs first. When that is resolved, there is a subsequence between the invading fleets and SBDs. If the invading fleet destroys or causes disengagement of the SDB squadrons then Surface bombing and troop transfer begins. This all occurs over a week's time.

This says SDBs are held in reserve close to defendable targets to act as a final line against, hopefully, damaged targets and will include attacks on fleet refueling operations.

 

[F33D]

Just looked at the Fifth Frontier rules and there is a sequence for system space combat which seems to represent Traveller combat. When an invasion force enters the system (and is detected), combat between capital squadrons and fleets occurs first. When that is resolved, there is a subsequence between the invading fleets and SBDs.

Chuck it out the window. Who says that the order of battle has to be thus?

 

[Reynard]

It was a bit of actual Traveller information describing how the authors of Traveller assumed combat works. There has also been information I've found in several sources, such as JTAS magazine, articles over the decades describing the strategic and tactical use of the SDB but this particular source pinpointed SDB use and general spaceship warfare. It was one answer, based on Traveller canon to a previous inquiry. At least I made an attempt rather than just dismissing such research offhand for no reason.

 

[dragoner]

IIRC, Invasion Earth had similar rules for SDB usage, such as a close support or planetary defense.

 

[Reynard]

This is why fleets on either side employ scout squadrons with the best sensors taxpayer money can buy. They patrol the most likely tactical points and routes for enemy vessels then report back at light speed. This would be similar to pre-satellite aircraft coastal and ocean reconnaissance.

 

[Condottiere]

The SDBs may concentrate on the harassing the flanks.

Technology has evolved, and in some cases even gone a revolution, in the last forty years, which changes our perspective as how it would be employed.

The prevailing construction and combat rules drive tactics and operations.

 

[dragoner]

The SDBs may concentrate on the harassing the flanks.

Technology has evolved, and in some cases even gone a revolution, in the last forty years, which changes our perspective as how it would be employed.

The prevailing construction and combat rules drive tactics and operations.

Technology evolves, but tactics often don't, the Egyptian chariots probably harassed the Canaanite flanks at Megiddo, 3500 years ago.

Another thing to consider is RoE, depending on who is fighting who, it could be different.

 

[phavoc]

It was a bit of actual Traveller information describing how the authors of Traveller assumed combat works. There has also been information I've found in several sources, such as JTAS magazine, articles over the decades describing the strategic and tactical use of the SDB but this particular source pinpointed SDB use and general spaceship warfare. It was one answer, based on Traveller canon to a previous inquiry. At least I made an attempt rather than just dismissing such research offhand for no reason.

Thank you for the information. That's what I was looking for. There's always been the inference that a handful of SDB's stationed at a gas giant can be potentially devastating to a fleet attempting to refuel, with the SDB's conducting hit and run raids and then disappearing into the clouds. Which suggests ships are quite vulnerable, and also which is where the term 'high guard' was supposedly coined. But even with what you've dug up it's not saying much as to how or why, just that it is.

As far as the sequence of events, the literature talks about SDB's being held to engage vulnerable supply ships, or conducting hit and run raids. Even armored 400 ton ships would be meat to the grinder attacking fully-fledged multi-thousand ton cruisers and up. A LOT of them could cause a lot of damage, but they'd not be useful in engaging capital ships. Of course spinal mounts would be kind of useless in return. Then again, taking on ships like this is what escorts are supposed to do.

I've got the entire JTAS series that GDW put out in print, guess I could pull them out and see what I can find. Though I think someone put together a summary over all the issues at one time didn't that? I need to look for that.

 

[F33D]

It was a bit of actual Traveller information describing how the

No, it was a tactic turned into a game rule. Done by someone who didn't know the difference. Chuck it as a RULE.

 

[F33D]

This is why fleets on either side employ scout squadrons with the best sensors taxpayer money can buy. They patrol the most likely tactical points and routes for enemy vessels then report back at light speed.

No need. You can spot a fleet all the way across the star system. You might need a couple remote sensors at long distance polar North South of the system disk to cover gas giant blind spots...

 

[Reynard]

"I've got the entire JTAS series that GDW put out in print, guess I could pull them out and see what I can find."

JTAS No. 9, page 32. System defense boats.
I thought I saw another article somewhere else. Might have been Challenge or one of the other Traveller magazine collections I have.

 

[phavoc]

JTAS No. 9, page 32. System defense boats.
I thought I saw another article somewhere else. Might have been Challenge or one of the other Traveller magazine collections I have.

Nothing in the article that hasn't already been touched on over the years (though it probably all originated in the article). The highlights:

1) ton-for-ton ships without the need for jump drives or fuel can take on a ship twice their size

2) defense of a system is in layers. First layer is basically engage the enemy as soon as they arrive and before they get to refuel. The underlying premise here is that attacking fleets are weak and piecemeal when they arrive (using the philosphy of ships having random arrival times from jump space). This tactic is not possible with the fleet jump tactics, or, failing that, a fleet that arrived far enough from a gas giant to allow for it to regroup before any defenders could arrive.

3) stage two is continue to harass auxillary vessels while ignoring major combatants. Other SDB's would defend planetary targets and assist with defense forces. It makes mention of ships stationed in gas giants to attack refueling enemies. To quote the article, "The boats station deep with the gas giant lie in ambush waiting for ships to refuel; they are most vulnerable then, and a large percentage of casualties are inflicted on the enemy during fueling operations." Again, much is alluded to here, but never an explanation of why, or how a 10,000 ton ship needs to fear a 400 ton SDB (even a half dozen of them) while refueling. The ship should have more than enough firepower to swat them from the sky.

4) As part of stage two the SDB is also capable of providing fire support for ground troops while defending a planet. Except the SDB is vulnerable to orbital fire from capital ships, so it's lifespan may be quite short.

5) stage three is a bit more amorphous. It's basically "when the cavalry arrives" hidden SDB's and remaining forces rise up/join the reinforcements to pound the enemy.

So all in all it's nothing that hasn't been mentioned before. The "ships are vulnerable when refueling" idea with nothing to back it up.

On a more positive note, this JTAS issue was the first one to have the 4518 Lift Regiment detailed out.

Actually I see this even more complex. Given the limits of Traveller strategic mobility I expect the main "fleet anchorage" aka Depots to be a few J4s behind the lines and the systems leading to it to be well patrolled by light units.

Depots are always deep behind lines, often weeks to get there from supposed enemies (the one located on the way to the Marches is an exception, only because of how thin the corridor is. The depots would not be the only fleet anchorages. For example Jewell has a very strong naval presence as well as very heavy orbital and planetary defense bases.

 

[Condottiere]

Basically, you could screen the refueling ships with fighters in Low Guard, feeding targetting data to the capital ships in High Guard.

 

[Reynard]

As to fighting in a gas giant, the concept was large ships would have to suffer from the gravity and turbulence both fighting and trying to climb out if attacked. In Mongoose terms, SDBs will often have superior maneuver drives able to deal with the conditions giving advantage. Remember most capital ships are standard or displaced hull with automatic negative DMs to pilot check in an atmospheres. Maybe it's would only be fluff but fighter should be at great hazard in such atmospheric conditions. I would also say there should be penalties to ships in high guard orbit firing into a gas giant's atmosphere whereas SDBs suffer less due to close proximity to targets.

SDBs also travel in packs chasing the most vulnerable and important, tankers and auxiliaries. Not the most defensive of military vessels. The only reason to attack something actually dangerous would be they are at a tactical advantage.

 

[Infojunky]

I have been watching this conversation to and fro, for a whiles now. And not one of y'all has mentioned ore considered the Engagement Envelope. Looking at the breath of Traveller for examples I find that Fleet rules tend to have a Envelope that is multiple Light Seconds across, while smaller ships tend to have a envelope of a around a light second.

 

[F33D]

I have been watching this conversation to and fro, for a whiles now. And not one of y'all has mentioned ore considered the Engagement Envelope. Looking at the breath of Traveller for examples I find that Fleet rules tend to have a Envelope that is multiple Light Seconds across, while smaller ships tend to have a envelope of a around a light second.

That is a possible tactical deployment model. What are its strengths and weaknesses vs. many other possible deployment models?

 

[Infojunky]

I have been watching this conversation to and fro, for a whiles now. And not one of y'all has mentioned ore considered the Engagement Envelope. Looking at the breath of Traveller for examples I find that Fleet rules tend to have a Envelope that is multiple Light Seconds across, while smaller ships tend to have a envelope of a around a light second.

That is a possible tactical deployment model. What are its strengths and weaknesses vs. many other possible deployment models?

Consider this, if Close Range is 8 Light Seconds, it puts the entire Earth Moon system and 100 diameter limit within close range of a fleet sitting in orbit.

 

[F33D]

Consider this, if Close Range is 8 Light Seconds, it puts the entire Earth Moon system and 100 diameter limit within close range of a fleet sitting in orbit.

But, in Trav that isn't Close range. So, that isn't an answer to my question.

 

[Condottiere]

What is ideal is the game's equivalent of cross the tee. Or broadside.

A missile reliant doctrine might make commanders only interested in exposing their ships in a very short window, and either close it by either being out of the envelope ASAP, or overwhelming opposition through sheer firepower.