Favored terrain + 5

[treeplanter]

Just want some tough from other poeple. While a Borderer or Nomad have +5 in a specific terrain, they can use the Hide skill even when being observed. Readed like this, il look like a quite powerful talent, but how would you guy use it in game term?

The only use I could think of is an Archer could Snipe then Hide immediatly at no penalty (Normally you take a -20 penality after a snipe attemp, but that is assuming the target actually check where you are).

Other than that, every other use of that power seem rather almost supernatural. It's almost like the character can disapear. I guess we can't expect less from a 16th level power

 

[Clovenhoof]

Essentially it's Hide In Plain Sight, and requires a good amount of Suspension of Disbelief to play it by the rules.

You don't even need to snipe, you can also sneak up to some guy, attack in Melee, and HiPS again before his buddies can get back at you. Rinse and repeat. Of course that would be most useful if you had extra damage sources, like Sneak Attack, which Borderer and Nomad don't get. But in Conan, you can achieve similarly devastating effects with Power Attack.

It won't do much good against Barbarians (Uncanny Dodge). But should be quite awesome against the usual grunts.

 

[treeplanter]

well played like this even against barbarian, he still can't really counter attack but still get his defense...

so basicly the only way to stop that would be having a bigger spot

 

[Sourcerer]

Actually Hide in Plain Sight isn't that powerful.

Obviously you have the first strike, but if you don't kill your target or there are additional enemies, you have a problem.
After the (single) attack you have to use your move action to hide again and you aren't able to change your location.
That means your enemies know exactly where you are, even though they can't see you (but they saw you attacking).
So you are not safe from attacks in return, you only gain a 50% miss chance of those attacks due to your total concealment.

It gets worse: Hiding you would be unable to dodge or parry any incoming attacks, so your enemies would roll against a whopping DC of 10.

So a higher Spot skill might be helpful, but the ability to survive the first strike should be enough to slay the sneaky attacker.

 

[Demetrio]

That means your enemies know exactly where you are

Only with metagaming knowledge of how the feat works. The npcs involved would have no such knowledge and thus would not know exactly where the pc was. They might strike out blindly but they would not know the exact location of the character. And they would as likely think he sorcerously removed himself, surely?

 

[Sourcerer]

They might strike out blindly but they would not know the exact location of the character.

Agreed and that would result in a 50% miss chance due to total concealment.
Being hidden surely shouldn't be superior to true invisibilty.

And they would as likely think he sorcerously removed himself, surely?

Invisibility sounds a lot more convincing than teleportation, but either way trying to "strike out blindly" sounds like a good idea, even if its only an act of frustration.
There is no metagaming knowledge necessary for that.

 

[Demetrio]

So you'd play that a thief hidden (by normal Hide skill) in combat should be allowed to be struck via Concealment rules?

 

[Krushnak]

you still need cover and/or concealment to be able to hide with the +5 favoured terrain bonus it only means you can hide while being watched.

It gets worse: Hiding you would be unable to dodge or parry any incoming attacks, so your enemies would roll against a whopping DC of 10.

where the hell are you getting that from? nothing in the hide skill says you lose your defense while hiding. infact it would be improved as your likely to be in total cover to have hidden at all.

 

[treeplanter]

Yeah but the +3 bonus of favored terrain is that you can use the hide skil even if the terrain do not grant cover or concealment...

So in the end I guess you have to use some logic. I would have no problem with the character sniping then hiding again at no penality in a forest. However I would not allow someone in a low grass plain or a sand desert do hit-and-run and still hide again...

In any case, I don't really like the +3 and +5 feature with the hide skill. I really like however the bonus granted at +2 and +4.

 

[Sourcerer]

It gets worse: Hiding you would be unable to dodge or parry any incoming attacks, so your enemies would roll against a whopping DC of 10.

where the hell are you getting that from? nothing in the hide skill says you lose your defense while hiding.

Dodging and Parrying imply rapid motions just like attacking, running or charging.

It is practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

I wouldn't disallow to dodge or parry, but that would imply the -20 penalty.
In such a situation it would be smarter not to dodge or parry, stay hidden and hope for the 50% miss chance.

infact it would be improved as your likely to be in total cover to have hidden at all.

Hiding grants concealment, not cover.

Cover makes a target harder to hit by introducing an obstacle between an attack and its destination.

Hiding can't magic such obstacles into existence.

So you'd play that a thief hidden (by normal Hide skill) in combat should be allowed to be struck via Concealment rules?

Yes, if the opponents somehow have knowledge or a hunch where the thief might be (aka pinpoint his location).
Having attacked just a second before suffices for me.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment and a 50% miss chance.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the Player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally.

I just apply the rules of invisibility to unseen aka hidden.
Hiding shouldn't be superior to invisibility.

 

[kintire]

Dodging and Parrying imply rapid motions just like attacking, running or charging.

That's a pretty wild assumption. Why? Dodging can be a metter of moving a few inches, and parrying the same.

I would have no problem with the character sniping then hiding again at no penality in a forest. However I would not allow someone in a low grass plain or a sand desert do hit-and-run and still hide again...

What bonus do you give people with favoured terrain plain or desert to make up for this?

 

[treeplanter]

well whatever the terrain, as long as their is concealment I would allow this.

 

[Sourcerer]

Dodging can be a metter of moving a few inches

If I assume a normal attack to be aimed at the center of the body, then to move out of the way of the wepaon you would have to move at least one foot, if not two or three.
That coupled with the speed you would have to move with will definitely complicate hiding.
Maybe a penalty of -20 is extreme, but it should be a significant penalty.

and parrying the same.

Here you have to explain how that should happen.
How do you parry an attack without the attacker noticing you or the weapon you block his weapon with?

 

[Saeros]

Dodging and Parrying imply rapid motions just like attacking, running or charging.

That's a pretty wild assumption. Why? Dodging can be a metter of moving a few inches, and parrying the same. .

I believe the rules state that you can not dodge if you do not have a friendly or unoccupied 5' square next to you. That implies to me that during the dodging, the character might move into that space and then back.

 

[Krushnak]

you can still dodge you just suffer a penalty to your dodge defense for not having the room ( -2 i think).

How do you parry an attack without the attacker noticing you or the weapon you block his weapon with?

if im hiding and get attacked in melee im not caring about hiding anymore as ive obviously been spotted.

 

[Hervé]

re-reading the whole post just made me quote that old beatnik:

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing "

And you guys would try to convince me D20 is THE right system?... :roll:

 

[zozotroll]

Naw, not I. It just happens to be the published system that mostly works pretty well. I have given up years ago thinking I can actualy change somebodies mind about a game system, or a woman. All you do is piss them off in eiother case.

 

[kintire]

If I assume a normal attack to be aimed at the center of the body, then to move out of the way of the wepaon you would have to move at least one foot, if not two or three.

But this isn't a normal attack. Its blind. It might just as easily be aimed at a limb.

How do you parry an attack without the attacker noticing you or the weapon you block his weapon with?

Easy. Attacker rams his sword into an area you vanished. It bounces off something hard. How is he supposed to know whether it was a rock, treebranch, or shield?

re-reading the whole post just made me quote that old beatnik:

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing "

And you guys would try to convince me D20 is THE right system?

Ahh, yes. Another contentless drive-by from Herve. I was wondering where you'd got to.

And quoting Christ! Pompous scale rises! i didn't think it was possible...

By the way, I for one have never attempted to convince anyone that d20 is THE system. Just FYI.

 

[Sourcerer]

But this isn't a normal attack. Its blind. It might just as easily be aimed at a limb.

Maybe that might be the case, but the rules are there to cover all possible scenarios.

A dodging character needs at least one adjacent square to either be unoccupied or be occupied by friendly creatures to be able to dodge effectively. He need not necessarily move into the space as part of his dodge but he does need a certain amount of room to move around in.

This sounds a lot like you have to move more than a few inches to dodge effectively.

Easy. Attacker rams his sword into an area you vanished. It bounces off something hard. How is he supposed to know whether it was a rock, treebranch, or shield?

You are kidding, right?

You can see, hear and feel the difference.

And you guys would try to convince me D20 is THE right system?

There is no right or wrong, there is only like or don't like.
Every system has merits and flaws, but you can play with every single one and it might even be fun.

The merits of D20 are a consistent body of rules, that governs most situations, and a simple enough basic principle.

Most other systems don't give rules for such a variety of different situations and quiet often use very different method for task resolution.
The older D&Ds are especially prone to that weakness.

But I guess many don't mind, so I let them have their fun.
Each their own.

 

[Hervé]

Sourcerer wrote:

There is no right or wrong, there is only like or don't like.
Every system has merits and flaws, but you can play with every single one and it might even be fun.

True here.

The merits of D20 are a consistent body of rules, that governs most situations, and a simple enough basic principle. Most other systems don't give rules for such a variety of different situations and quiet often use very different method for task resolution. The older D&Ds are especially prone to that weakness.

While I agree that the basic principle of D20 are simple (and quite interesting actually) the avalanche of special rules makes it really clunky.

Actually D20 is exactly that: one special rule for every situation, every ability, feat and so on (even if in the end they all use a D20 roll, something that didn't exist in OD&D).

Too many rules lead to absurd situations and this very thread is quite a good example about it.

There are many systems that allow to handle such various situations with far less maths and using a common method for task resolution.

Actually, OD&D is quite an exeption about this, being more, as Malcadon stated in another post, a compilation of house rules than a real comprehensive system.

kintire wrote:

Ahh, yes. Another contentless drive-by from Herve. I was wondering where you'd got to.

Aaah.. kintire personal attacks... I was beginning to miss them. Notice again I'm criticizing the system, you're criticizing the person, as usual.

I said I'll try to stop ad hominem attacks, but also I said I won't stop ranting on D20.

Funnily, DD4 is regularly insulted and criticized on this very forum (and remember that Mongoose also publishes 4th ed products...) and I don't remember you dispensing your rightful justice on the blasphemers.

Could it be that you're not so objective?

And quoting Christ! Pompous scale rises! i didn't think it was possible...

This probably insults your godlike attitude. otherwise, it was just a joke...

Sourcerer wrote:

But I guess many don't mind, so I let them have their fun.
Each their own.

I guess you're the real wiseman among us, then. :wink: