EW vs missiles - very large salvos and multiple EW attempts

[Nerhesi]

Both the Core Rule book, and the Multiple Warhead Incoming! section of High Guard indicate that EW is only the best attempt per Salvo. Should we be defining Max Salvo Size for HG style engagements? 300 Medium bays launching 4800 missiles is one salvo? Perhaps a simple maximum of like 100 missiles/torps per salvo?

Trying to think of the potential abuses or valid tactics around putting all your missiles in one egg, or splitting them up over several salvos. Am I overthinking it? thoughts?

 

[PsiTraveller]

Standard Salvo size will be whatever will overload the defence, and in playing with the numbers I think defence in big ships can handle a lot of inbound missiles, assuming that millions are spent in Core computers, turrets and software.

Assume an EW skill of 2, so send 6 missiles for that
EW Software 3 so send 9
Pilot Evade: 2 so send 6
Gunner Skill 2 so send 6 per turret
Assume all turrets at triple turrets giving +2, so send 6 missiles per turret.
Plus 36 missiles for the 2D roll

So 6 + 9 + 6 + 6 + 36: 63 missiles, plus 6 for every turret that might do PD against you.

So your 100 missiles would work pretty well.

The shortened flight times means EW will get rid of best case scenario, 12 (roll) + skill 2 + EW software 3 + pilot evade 2 + anything else: -8 Effect: 11 missiles a turn. That will be thirty-ish missiles in the 4 rounds inbound from very long range. (assuming last round does not get EW roll due to phases. )

Each turret could take out roll 12 + gunner 2 + software 2 + 2 for triple turret+ whatever else I forgot - 8 Effect equals 10 -12 missiles destroyed per turret. So 10 turrets could take out 100 missiles. So to overwhelm a 1000 ton ship send in 150 missiles. Assuming average rolls it will be 7 - 10 missiles a turret, but it shows they can handle a lot of missiles.

Screening ships with software can also EW and PD so it gets even worse. A big ship could have a couple of 1000 ton "turret ships" Designed to take out 100 missiles a turn of incoming missiles each. It depends on the amount of money you are willing to spend.

For small ship combat the 30ish missiles thrown away means that small scale combat will be problematic for missile throwers that cannot throw a lot of missiles. They may be forced to close with an enemy to get to shorter flight time range and then hope they PD does not take out the salvo. An 800 ton mercenary cruiser could be able to PD 40 - 60 missiles after a single EW attempt takes out 10 missiles. So a small ship will need to throw over 80 missiles to hope to get anything through.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

For large salvoes EW becomes irrelevant, hence one less thing to roll in large scale combat. I even think this is considered and intended by Matt?

 

[Nerhesi]

That could be.

Or it could be that there is a simple way to just roll it up and determine it.
I'm not opposed to a roll for EW.
I'm opposed to many EW rolls. Heck it could be just simpler to add all modifiers of EW affecting that salvo from the main ship, plus perhaps a +1 for each aiding ship/ew drone and you're done. Remove that many missiles.

TL15 ship with military sensors: +6
sensor operator crew skill or characteristic+start: +4
5 Destroyers providing aid, 15 EW small craft; +20

Remove 30 missiles, thanks.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There is currently no aiding. One EW roll / salvo / round, so lots of rolls, unless you fire 1000 missile salvoes and EW becomes irrelevant, hence no roll.

 

[Nerhesi]

There is currently no aiding. One EW roll / salvo / round, so lots of rolls, unless you fire 1000 missile salvoes and EW becomes irrelevant, hence no roll.

Yes - currently there is no aiding.

But as countless posts have indicated, there is interest in larger EW options and "making sense". Perhaps this is capital combat only.

Regardless there is a logical discrepancy now as you point out.
1000 missile salvos - 1 ew roll.
10 adjacent ships firing a 100 missile salvo each. 10 ew rolls.

I don't mind making ew strong or weak, just not... "weird"

 

[PsiTraveller]

I keep thinking along the lines of EW remove X percentage of missiles, so it is diminishing returns: Assume 20 percent success and you have a 100 missile silo being reduced
100-20: 80 left
80-20%= 16 = 64 left
etc etc.

The remaining missiles are getting a lock and heading in. You remove more at longer range and fewer as they come in. Your success may vary (make a roll each attempt), but you are removing a percentage of remaining missiles. There will always be some left. (That PD will hopefully handle)

Dunno, not finished hashing it out yet

 

[phavoc]

For missiles attacks, allow the attacker to group them up, and the defender to group defending rolls up as well.

OR

Only the ship being targeted can use EW against a missile salvo directed at it. You can physically cover with point defense fire if your ship is assigned as an escort, but that's it.

And I like the idea of diminishing returns per EW attempt on a salvo.

Do keep in mind that once the first wave is out, there is the second, and then the third, etc. So while your valiant attempts have defeated the first wave of 100 missiles, there are two more behind it and your enemy continues to fire. At that point it will be a test of the EW rules and wether or not you can get hits with a missile salvo.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Warship EW is pretty strong. You need to fire very large salvoes to overcome it.

E.g. A warship with a good sensor operator (+5), MilitaryCM (+6), EnhancedSP (+4), and possibly software (+3) has a total EW DM +18, killing on average 16 missiles per EW action.

At Distant range and advanced missiles taking 7 rounds to target we can kill 112 missiles per salvo. If we launch a few thousand missiles that is not a problem, but if we launch a few hundred missiles it is crippling.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Both the Core Rule book, and the Multiple Warhead Incoming! section of High Guard indicate that EW is only the best attempt per Salvo.

Only _one_ attempt, whether it is good or not!