Evolution and samurai era
- Thread starter tneva82
- Start date
Armydillo978
Mongoose
Excellent, that's what I'm looking for. Throw out a workable model and fine tune it with input. 
Now, I"m not up on Asian bow types. Did the Japanese/Chinese warriors have more than one type? Long bow, short bow, middle bow?
Bow / 24 / 1d6+2 / Piercing 1, Prone
Now, I"m not up on Asian bow types. Did the Japanese/Chinese warriors have more than one type? Long bow, short bow, middle bow?
Bow / 24 / 1d6+2 / Piercing 1, Prone
i see it like this for bow weapons..
short
6" damage D6
12" damage D4
traits: Volly, quick.
meduim
6" damage D8
12" damage D6
24" damage D4
traits: volly, snipe, burning arrows
long bow (not used in samuri)
12" damage D8
24" damage D6
36" damage D4
Traits: volly, snipe, burning arrows
traits
quick, if a ready action is performed following shoot action may fire 3 shots these canot be aimed and must all be at same fire zone and unit may not split its fire when using this trait, this maybe combined with volly.
Volly
ready action is taken and arrows recieve the Auto trait and range is doubled and entire unit can fire at a target in view of its other units. this canot be done from a prone position nor may it be performed from withinside buildings or woods.
Snipe.
ready action is performed befor each shot and damage is at +2 with piercing 1
burning Arrows
a ready action is taken and subsequnt shots count as burning, if unit moved they loose the ability for rest of game. a unit benifiting from burning may fire only volly shots and normal shots, first point of cover is ignored and cavalry are at +1 to damage, buildings and ocupants suffer D10 damage representing the fire spreading in a building..(not fortifications) yes thats right burning arrows allow you to destroy buildings and all those inside with ease...
as you can see they need a spit and polish, but the idea is to keep it so the game fairs the agressor, any one trying to play modern tactics of hiding in buildings can be eliminated,, buildings can be destroyed by bow men !!!! and i hope help recreate the tactics used back in those times... your probably notice ive based this on medievil rather than subject title but as a basis i feel its a good place to start then work it into samuri.. rather than later on do it the other way arouns.
short
6" damage D6
12" damage D4
traits: Volly, quick.
meduim
6" damage D8
12" damage D6
24" damage D4
traits: volly, snipe, burning arrows
long bow (not used in samuri)
12" damage D8
24" damage D6
36" damage D4
Traits: volly, snipe, burning arrows
traits
quick, if a ready action is performed following shoot action may fire 3 shots these canot be aimed and must all be at same fire zone and unit may not split its fire when using this trait, this maybe combined with volly.
Volly
ready action is taken and arrows recieve the Auto trait and range is doubled and entire unit can fire at a target in view of its other units. this canot be done from a prone position nor may it be performed from withinside buildings or woods.
Snipe.
ready action is performed befor each shot and damage is at +2 with piercing 1
burning Arrows
a ready action is taken and subsequnt shots count as burning, if unit moved they loose the ability for rest of game. a unit benifiting from burning may fire only volly shots and normal shots, first point of cover is ignored and cavalry are at +1 to damage, buildings and ocupants suffer D10 damage representing the fire spreading in a building..(not fortifications) yes thats right burning arrows allow you to destroy buildings and all those inside with ease...
as you can see they need a spit and polish, but the idea is to keep it so the game fairs the agressor, any one trying to play modern tactics of hiding in buildings can be eliminated,, buildings can be destroyed by bow men !!!! and i hope help recreate the tactics used back in those times... your probably notice ive based this on medievil rather than subject title but as a basis i feel its a good place to start then work it into samuri.. rather than later on do it the other way arouns.
indeed... but from the training and lectures i whent to a bow man used 3 main types
you normal bolt designed to do a job of going up in a tragectory and to then return to earth in a shower of death.
a penetration bolt used to get through enemy armour and out the other side (dont forget it was preferable for the bolt to stick in the enemy rather than go in and out the other side) i for this used the sniper shot idea. as effectliv they wehre also used to snipe with.
and chemical arrows, for this i did burning arrow.. as what was often done was a few fires where lit around the bowmen as in theory it could also be a deterant to enemy cavalry, and was on hand for men to fix bows if needs must, and for arrows to be dipped in to ignite for the flaming death, not all arrows were dipped but they all used chemical arrows idea was splash from some arrows would be ignited by the burning arrows causing evan more devistation.
obvously there are as many schools of though on tactics used in those times as there where years.. as it contantly got tinkered with and evolved...
as for the samuri long bow that would be an equivelent to a meduim bow i would say, a long bow was a beast and currently in the uk there are only 3 or 4 people that can actualy fire one at full poundage... you have to have a mutated body to fire them ie extraudinaraly strong on the draw arm with an easy to lock fore arm. the lecture i was at on these was fasinating and they would not evan allow any one to try pull the string on a long bow due to the forces envolved... dam H & s lol,,
but i agree a little more needs doing and the humming bolts i did totaly forget about,, many thanks.
you normal bolt designed to do a job of going up in a tragectory and to then return to earth in a shower of death.
a penetration bolt used to get through enemy armour and out the other side (dont forget it was preferable for the bolt to stick in the enemy rather than go in and out the other side) i for this used the sniper shot idea. as effectliv they wehre also used to snipe with.
and chemical arrows, for this i did burning arrow.. as what was often done was a few fires where lit around the bowmen as in theory it could also be a deterant to enemy cavalry, and was on hand for men to fix bows if needs must, and for arrows to be dipped in to ignite for the flaming death, not all arrows were dipped but they all used chemical arrows idea was splash from some arrows would be ignited by the burning arrows causing evan more devistation.
obvously there are as many schools of though on tactics used in those times as there where years.. as it contantly got tinkered with and evolved...
as for the samuri long bow that would be an equivelent to a meduim bow i would say, a long bow was a beast and currently in the uk there are only 3 or 4 people that can actualy fire one at full poundage... you have to have a mutated body to fire them ie extraudinaraly strong on the draw arm with an easy to lock fore arm. the lecture i was at on these was fasinating and they would not evan allow any one to try pull the string on a long bow due to the forces envolved... dam H & s lol,,
but i agree a little more needs doing and the humming bolts i did totaly forget about,, many thanks.
The Diakyu was every bit as long as the Longbow and depending on your bias was as good or better than a yew longbow (Daikyu is a laminate construction etc.).
If the system has to have a "medium" bow, I suppose an argument could be made that the Mongol/Khergit deep recurve bow would best fill that niche.
very different was the samuri long bow.
"Longbows were difficult to master because the force required to deliver an arrow through the improving armour of medieval Europe was very high by modern standards. Although the draw weight of a typical English longbow is disputed, it was at least 360 N (80 lbf) and possibly more than 650 N (143 lbf) with some high-end estimates at 900N (202 lbf). Considerable practice was required to produce the swift and effective combat shooting required. Skeletons of longbow archers are recognizably deformed, with enlarged left arms and often bone spurs on left wrists, left shoulders and right fingers."
the english one was 6 foot and the arrow was brought right back the samuri one was designed to amke the bowmand job easier as it was a composit design the arrow was not brough back as far and dont for get samuri on average where alot smaller than and english bow man at the time, many english powme where over 6 foot wich at the time was huge... and it was a family tradition from birth to become a long bowmen its like comparing 2 engines one was more economic the other (english) was a mussle machine that requires alot of mussle and fuel to supply...
im not arguing im trying to allow peopl to see whats special about the long bow, at presnet you or i or anbody reading this board could fire a shot from oriental long box,, but at the same time with an english long bow we probably wouldnt get it further than our own height.. wed posably draw the string back an " per foot of height.. but a long bowman who trained up from the smallest long bow as a child (any thing over 80lbs) for 15 to 20 years would have the power to draw that same string back around 3 foot for a 6' tall guy.. alot of that was due to a distorted length of arm on the arrow side..
cross bow was more popular as you could give it to 20 men who never seen a bow befor and get them shooting and aiming in a day.. wich is why the longbow was phased out in time...
going back to the samuri they also had repeating cross bows, these where as weak if not weaker than a short bow, but again so simple to train in thier use...
the thing we need to take into consideration as well in bows is the lb is all dependant and multiplied by the bow length and draw distance,, for example if you got any bow and draw the string back 5" would the arrow go as far compared to drawing the string back 2 foot ? its very hard to get info on a english long bow as said there are about 3-4 people in england that have trained and built up the body to fire them,,, but at the same time we dont know how well they would compare to the profesional soldiers of the day who made their money at this art.. for them it was a living and a birthright not a hobby..
i think bows to do well in a game need discusion it maybe an idea if we have any players here from the leeds area, if they could pop in the royal armoures and have a chat with them as regards differnet bows, and differences...and of course training.
"Longbows were difficult to master because the force required to deliver an arrow through the improving armour of medieval Europe was very high by modern standards. Although the draw weight of a typical English longbow is disputed, it was at least 360 N (80 lbf) and possibly more than 650 N (143 lbf) with some high-end estimates at 900N (202 lbf). Considerable practice was required to produce the swift and effective combat shooting required. Skeletons of longbow archers are recognizably deformed, with enlarged left arms and often bone spurs on left wrists, left shoulders and right fingers."
the english one was 6 foot and the arrow was brought right back the samuri one was designed to amke the bowmand job easier as it was a composit design the arrow was not brough back as far and dont for get samuri on average where alot smaller than and english bow man at the time, many english powme where over 6 foot wich at the time was huge... and it was a family tradition from birth to become a long bowmen its like comparing 2 engines one was more economic the other (english) was a mussle machine that requires alot of mussle and fuel to supply...
im not arguing im trying to allow peopl to see whats special about the long bow, at presnet you or i or anbody reading this board could fire a shot from oriental long box,, but at the same time with an english long bow we probably wouldnt get it further than our own height.. wed posably draw the string back an " per foot of height.. but a long bowman who trained up from the smallest long bow as a child (any thing over 80lbs) for 15 to 20 years would have the power to draw that same string back around 3 foot for a 6' tall guy.. alot of that was due to a distorted length of arm on the arrow side..
cross bow was more popular as you could give it to 20 men who never seen a bow befor and get them shooting and aiming in a day.. wich is why the longbow was phased out in time...
going back to the samuri they also had repeating cross bows, these where as weak if not weaker than a short bow, but again so simple to train in thier use...
the thing we need to take into consideration as well in bows is the lb is all dependant and multiplied by the bow length and draw distance,, for example if you got any bow and draw the string back 5" would the arrow go as far compared to drawing the string back 2 foot ? its very hard to get info on a english long bow as said there are about 3-4 people in england that have trained and built up the body to fire them,,, but at the same time we dont know how well they would compare to the profesional soldiers of the day who made their money at this art.. for them it was a living and a birthright not a hobby..
i think bows to do well in a game need discusion it maybe an idea if we have any players here from the leeds area, if they could pop in the royal armoures and have a chat with them as regards differnet bows, and differences...and of course training.
I don't think I agree with the logic of that line of thought.
Are there any surviving longbowman skeletons apart from those on the Mary Rose? Is there sufficient evidence to assume that all longbowmen were thus deformed? Did the men at Agincourt have such deformations a century earlier? At Crecy 2 centuries before that? Edward the III didn't even renew the Assize of Arms until after Crecy and draw weight is no part of the edict.
Or is it a case - more likely - that the men stationed on the Mary Rose (Carew's flagship) were the "best of the best" and this is a converse fallacy of accident (an exception is being assumed to be the norm)? Similarly, the Mongols that fired the 160+ lb. Khergit were exceptions and not the rule.
I don't dispute that the longbow is an icon of England and that the English longbow was an especially potent weapon, I dispute the logic of assuming that because the skeletons from the Mary Rose and the draw weights of the surviving Renaissance bows were thus ... that all longbows and all longbow archers were always thus.
Are there any surviving longbowman skeletons apart from those on the Mary Rose? Is there sufficient evidence to assume that all longbowmen were thus deformed? Did the men at Agincourt have such deformations a century earlier? At Crecy 2 centuries before that? Edward the III didn't even renew the Assize of Arms until after Crecy and draw weight is no part of the edict.
Or is it a case - more likely - that the men stationed on the Mary Rose (Carew's flagship) were the "best of the best" and this is a converse fallacy of accident (an exception is being assumed to be the norm)? Similarly, the Mongols that fired the 160+ lb. Khergit were exceptions and not the rule.
I don't dispute that the longbow is an icon of England and that the English longbow was an especially potent weapon, I dispute the logic of assuming that because the skeletons from the Mary Rose and the draw weights of the surviving Renaissance bows were thus ... that all longbows and all longbow archers were always thus.
Rick
Mongoose
Hmm, just done some research online and things are getting mukier rather than clearer. First of all, the draw weight of a daikyu appears to be in the 35-90 lbf range, and is referred to as a "longbow" in often the same sentence as the English/Welsh longbow. However, the methods used to make the daikyu evolved over hundreds of years, eventually becoming the final design around 1600. Therefore, depending on when the rules are set, you could have a daikyu at the lower end of the range, if you have early samurai, for example.
I thought it looked just too simple! :shock:
I thought it looked just too simple! :shock:
Armydillo978
Mongoose
Rick said:
Nothing is ever simple. Not even death. Just wait till I bring up the thoughts on various armor types the Samurai and regular warriors had and will different sword types (if there were) may change the stat types.
So much stuff. And what about pikes? Or spears?
Get cracking people.
Rick
Mongoose
Okay. Specifically, the "Samurai" era appears to be around 1600, the era of the big battles, gunpowder and foreign trading/meddling, leading to the Tokugawa shogunate.
I think the "bushi" era would cover from about the genpei wars to just after the Mongol invasions, sort of pre-gunpowder, early Samurai (even though that term wasn't in use then).
The term "mononofu" would cover the period from about the founding of the Imperial house by Jinmu Tenno up to almost the Genpei war time.
These 3 periods cover the whole historical timeline of Japan through the period we're interested in. Before this is the Bronze age "Yayoi" culture and it's close ties to china, after this period comes the Commodore Perry incident and opening up of Japan to the west, with the culture clash seen in "The Last Samurai".
Whew, hows that? Japanese Samurai History 101!! Gives 3 main era's to concentrate on. I daresay the last 2 will be the main ones people will want to concentrate on, being the most well known.
I think the "bushi" era would cover from about the genpei wars to just after the Mongol invasions, sort of pre-gunpowder, early Samurai (even though that term wasn't in use then).
The term "mononofu" would cover the period from about the founding of the Imperial house by Jinmu Tenno up to almost the Genpei war time.
These 3 periods cover the whole historical timeline of Japan through the period we're interested in. Before this is the Bronze age "Yayoi" culture and it's close ties to china, after this period comes the Commodore Perry incident and opening up of Japan to the west, with the culture clash seen in "The Last Samurai".
Whew, hows that? Japanese Samurai History 101!! Gives 3 main era's to concentrate on. I daresay the last 2 will be the main ones people will want to concentrate on, being the most well known.
Rick
Mongoose
Personally, given that the plastic 20mm figures available are from the "Samurai" period, I think that the rules should be set in the "Sengoku Jidai", the age of warring states; This is a period which offers the most variation in troop types and possible opponents, as well as being probably the high point of the development of armour and weapons.
I think you could have a few different Samurai army styles, relating the army commanders style to troop types, some religious commanders might bring more warrior monks, other christian commanders, more access to european weapons, as well as late Chinese and Korean army lists for Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea.
I think you could have a few different Samurai army styles, relating the army commanders style to troop types, some religious commanders might bring more warrior monks, other christian commanders, more access to european weapons, as well as late Chinese and Korean army lists for Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea.
Armydillo978 said:So much stuff. And what about pikes? Or spears?
Pole arms would add a Reach/X" trait (I've already added this for other mods I've done) to allow the target to reach farther than their base Lethal Zone based on Size (i.e. a Reach/1 would allow a Size 1 to attach enemy's 1" further away from their normal LZ).
Warlord, a different system allows polearms to add a +1 to attacks by friendly models directly in front of the polearm as the pikeman stabs his spear forward to limit the enemy's movement/ability to dodge.
Dealing with formations is a little beyond the normal scope of BF:Evo but may or maynot be needed if you want to take the game to a higher level.
You could lead the charge.Armydillo978 said:
Armydillo978
Mongoose
Paladin said:You could lead the charge.Armydillo978 said:
Move along, Sir. Nothing to see here.
I'll leave that mission to the original poster. I'm just the big-mouth you stirs the pot.
n815e said:
Good suggestions.
I'm one of those who kinda like to have a universal system, so that would be my reason for doing mods like this. When I was younger it was easier to kept track of all the different things, but now, it's easier on my old joints.......brains to use as few as possible.
Wolfhound said:
its not an asumption its a military fact !!! the long bow in the true english sence was a beast.. it would be like you trying to pull a lorry with a 50cc scooter... long bowmen where bred from the day they could hold a bow they had draw weights incresed, a 10 year old child could use effectivly a standard bow... better than a your average peasant.... true investors in people lol.
i could go on for ever but the bottom line is the long bow was extreemly hard to use, mostly due to draw weight over length, you and i could not do it !!! the chest was deformed the head was deformed as for examples of the sleleton the military do hold a few as example of the extreems the human body can be mutated by breeding and extreem training...
and then think about this ,these guys stood and fired an arrow atleast once every 15 second... doesen't sound much but try do the motion for 3 hours ? not easy... these guys were machines and if the concept was around in those days they would of probably been nicknamed cybermen lol...
life was cheap back then you made people into what you needed like we make computer programs.. never underestimate the longbowman, they may not have been posh and covered in armour but in thier time they where very desicive and the elites of the elites evan if the knoblemen had to look down on them for effectivly peasents they got paid very well indeed, but it took them 15 years of training to get that income. and to think any one could just turn up and use a long bow is like saying any one can pick up a gun and gear and use it to its full effect after running 3 miles.. it takes less training to become a modern profesional soldier than it takes to become a long bowman.. warhammer is a big part for alot of young gamers non understanding on what a long bow truley was,
never disrespect the longbowmen of the past its like saying the SAS are untrained militia !!!!!!... its easier to be a memeber of the sas in modern times than it is to fire a long bow !!!! obvously back then it was eisier to become a longbowman than to join the sas lol.
I am not sure how this went in Japan but surely formations played much larger part in the time's military doctrine than today? I mean if you have an equivalent of infantry squad and you can move the minis in WaW an in MC pretty freely I would force the minis at that era to move in certain formations. Probably certain formations would be more efficient against other formations and vice versa.
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