Escorts, Carrier, Fighters Pt 2 - Fighters - UNOFFICIAL

[AdrianH]

@Da Boss: Thanks for that. They seem to be a really basis for SF, having most of what's needed, but with only minor tweaks (Hull/to hit 4-6, etc).

• Groups: great. Remove fighters from a group as damage is removed is a possibility to show them weakening to help cut down record-keeping

• I'm not sure what you mean here, but if you mean removing one from the group of six in a flight, it doesn't work like that. If a flight is hit, the whole flight is destroyed. You don't remove pieces from a fighter base, and you can't remove anything if it's a counter rather than a base with six miniature fighter models.
  
  To some extent the fact that it is a flight rather than a single fighter is depicted by the "Fleet Carrier" trait. Among the nice things this does for fighters is that when a fighter flight is destroyed, the carrier gets to roll and on a 5+ the flight is re-spawned - some of the flight survived, made it back to the carrier and is regrouped to make a new flight.
  
  

  [*]Short range weapons: fine. See the E4's and F5's disruptors as well as the shorter-ranged plasma's (after AD have been deducted). Fighter weapons, having limited power, could be even shorter. The individual weapons still have _their_ traits, after all.

  Anti-fighter is range 2". So are most fighter weapons. Fighters therefore need to take their chances against anti-fighter before they can fire. Some heavier fighters have longer range weapons, very few have ranges over 4", and fighters with weapons like this tend to be slower, poorer in dogfights, and poorer at dodging - they'll still fire before capital ship weapons but they'll be less likely to survive for long when the capital ship fires back.
  
  

  [*]Anti-Fighter weaponry: Phaser-G's = Advanced? Perhaps all Phaser-3s are automatically
  Advanced Anti-Fighter. It strikes me that phasers and some other weapons should be able to target fighter groups, too.

Advanced Anti-fighter means you add 1 to the attack roll, same as the Accurate +1 trait for ACTA:SF weapons. With everything having effectively Hull 4 in ACTA:SF, there's no real reason for the distinction - against a fighter with Hull 4, ordinary Anti-fighter will hit on 4+ anyway in B5:ACTA. The real significance is whether the fire control of those phasers is designed to attack small, fast, dodging fighters. Anti-fighter represents small, fast-firing weapons which can harm fighters but do nothing against capital ships - if you want a WW2 analogy, think of 20mm AA guns.

The previously mentioned Dodge may work ok against major weapons and drones, but not in a dogfight

Yes, Dodge works against weapons, not in a dogfight and not against Anti-fighter. And also not against Accurate weapons - in B5:ACTA, "Accurate" simply means "can not be dodged". Earlier versions of B5:ACTA had no Anti-fighter ship trait, "Anti-fighter" was a weapon trait which meant "can not be dodged" - it was renamed to "Accurate" in version 2 when the ship trait was introduced. Such weapons still fire during the capital ship firing phase, after all fighters have finished attacking. Perhaps this definition of "Anti-fighter" would work on phaser-3's.

 

[Da Boss]

Thanks Adrian - I should have clarified a few points

As SFU seems to be closer to NA in terms of number of fighters may just swap flights for single fighters and keep all other rules as is - still 1 damage point each (really big fighters could have two) and no rules for formations - IMO way too complicated.

you could easily give Phaser 3's and similar the Accurate trait to ship based guns (and maybe even the odd fighter - which is a nasty trick

I would just go with something like this: I am guessing the fighters are straight rip offs of the US fighter jets of the same name. This would allow a good number of the fighters in a game but are unlikely to be completely dominant.

F18 Fighter
Speed: 12", Turns: SM, dodge: 2+, Damage :1 Dogfight +1,
Phaser 3, range 2, AD2, Precise
Drones, range 6, AD1, Multi hit 2 Devastating seeking(*)
(*) you may swap your drones for dogfight drones at the start of a game loosing this weapon but gaining +2 to your dogfight - so a F-18 would have +3 total.

A10 Attack Ship
Speed: 12", Turns SM, Dodge 3+, Damage 2, Dogfight -1,
Phaser 3, range 2, AD2, Precise
Drones, range 6, AD1, Multi hit 2 Devastating seeking(*)
Photon, range 2, AD1, Multihit 4 devastating
(*) you may swap your drones for dogfight drones at the start of a game loosing this weapon but gaining +2 to your dogfight - so a A10 would have +1 total.

 

[AdmiralGrafSpee]

F18 Fighter
Speed: 12", Turns: SM, dodge: 2+, Damage :1 Dogfight +1,
Phaser 3, range 2, AD2, Precise
Drones, range 6, AD1, Multi hit 2 Devastating seeking(*)
(*) you may swap your drones for dogfight drones at the start of a game loosing this weapon but gaining +2 to your dogfight - so a F-18 would have +3 total.

A10 Attack Ship
Speed: 12", Turns SM, Dodge 3+, Damage 2, Dogfight -1,
Phaser 3, range 2, AD2, Precise
Drones, range 6, AD1, Multi hit 2 Devastating seeking(*)
Photon, range 2, AD1, Multihit 4 devastating
(*) you may swap your drones for dogfight drones at the start of a game loosing this weapon but gaining +2 to your dogfight - so a A10 would have +1 total.

Da Boss - I like this format. Just a few thoughts:

1) Speed - do all fighter need to move 12" to be effective? Should some be faster and some slower? Good starting speed though.
2) Dodge scores of 2+ and 3+ seem really high to me.
3) Perhaps if weapons are significantly different they should have new names so as to not confuse people.
4) I think ALL phasers/drones/ADD/PL-D should be anti-fighter. You can only fire them once - make it count!

-Tim


2)

 

[Da Boss]

Speed 12 is not fixed at all - in fact speeds in B5 were IIRC 8 through to 17 - not sure about NA but likely similar....

Dodge 2+ means that you have to try and kill a fighter if you want it dead with either the right weapons or another fighter - this coupled with its resonable but IMO not overpowered weapons mean they can take their place on the field but not be too awesome. Just another option for a Admiral Also remember as soon as the fighter fails a save its dead!

You could easily rename them Phaser 1, 2 and 3F (fighter) etc

Personally I would be tempted to make Phaser III's and Plasma Ds accurate (ignore dodge) - means that if you come after ships they can swat you but if not its hard to get a decent lock onto a agile target. I would not do Drones as accurate

 

[Da Boss]

Klingons and Romulan Suggestions - and the other two Fed fighters

Edited to remove dodge

Z-1 Assault Fighter
Speed: 6, Turn: SM, Dogfight: 0, Damage: 2, Traits: Fighter
Phaser-2F Range 6 1AD Accurate+1, Precise
Phaser-3F Range 2 2AD Precise
Drones Range 6 1AD Seeking, Devastating +1, Multihit 2,

Z-2 Superiority Fighter
Speed: 8, Turn: SM, Dogfight: +1, Damage: 1, Traits: Fighter
Phaser-3F Range 2 1AD Precise
Drones Range 6 1AD Seeking, Devastating +1, Multihit D6, One-Shot

Z-V Superiority Fighter
Speed: 12, Turn: SM, Dogfight: +3, Damage: 2, Traits: Fighter
Phaser-3F Range 2 1AD Precise
Drones Range 6 1AD Seeking, Devastating +1, Multihit D6, One-Shot

Gladiator I Assault Fighter
Speed: 10, Turn: SM, Dogfight: -2, Damage: 1, Traits: Fighter
Plasma Torpedo Range 8 2AD Devastating +1, Multihit D6, Seeking

Gladiator II Assault Fighter
Speed: 12, Turn: SM, Dogfight: 0, Damage: 2, Traits: Fighter
Phaser-3F Range 2 1AD Precise
Plasma Torpedo Range 8 2AD Devastating +1, Multihit D6, Seeking

Gladiator F Superiority Fighter
Speed: 8, Turn: SM, Dogfight: +4, Damage: 1, Traits: Fighter
Phaser-3F Range 2 1AD Precise
Plasma Torpedo-D Range 2 2AD Devastating +1, Multihit 2, Seeking

Gladiator SF Superiority Fighter
Speed: 12, Turn: SM, Dogfight: +4, Damage: 2, Traits: Fighter
Phaser-3F Range 2 2AD Precise
Plasma Torpedo-D Range 2 2AD Devastating +1, Multihit 2, Seeking

F-4 Fighter
Speed: 8, Turn: SM, Dogfight: -1, Damage: 1, Traits: Fighter
Phaser-3F Range 2, 1 AD Precise
Drones Range 6 1 AD Seeking, Devastating +1, Multihit 2,

F-15 Fighter
Speed: 15, Turn: SM, Dogfight: +2, Damage: 2, Traits: Fighter
Phaser-GF Range 2, 4AD Accurate +1, Fighter killer (ignores Dodge),
Drones Range 6 1AD, Seeking, Devastating +1, Multihit 2 (*)
At the start of the game you may swap this weapon for dogfight drones adding +2 to the dogfight rating - giving the F-15 Dogfight +4 total.

 

[Captain Jonah]

The problem with all of these is the Dodge.

What you have here is a situation where to kill a fighter takes a fighter, which forces people to field carriers just in case the other guy is fielding carriers.

If you don't have a carrier then suddenly if the fighters come in with the enemy ships you either ignore the fighters and shoot down the Incoming or ignore the Plasmas/Drones and go for the fighters.

A dirt cheap fighter with dodge 4+ takes two Phaser 1s to kill since it will likely dodge one and you need Phaser 1s to kill if before it gets into range.

A fighter with dodge 2+ is taking the Phaser firepower of a cruiser to stop. :shock:

Drop the whole dodge thing. Fighters should not be able to challenge Cruisers head on.

Give the Carriers the Carrier or Fleet Carrier Trait, give them a CQ check for each fighter lost to recover that fighter either by breaking out a reserve or by the damaged fighter limping back to the carrier at full speed.

Don’t make the fighters so tough that any fleet without fighters cannot stand against a fleet with them. That way leads to the madness of late war SFB.

 

[Greg Smith]

Dodge in B5 worked because ships had lots of AD on their guns. It won't be the same in SF.

To an extent fighter spam is a potential problem in NA because of the lack of guns on ships.

 

[billclo]

How about dropping Dodge versus enemy ships/fire, but leave it in place for dogfighting other fighters?

 

[Da Boss]

Thanks Greg I had forgotton how few guns you get on SFU ships ;(

Suggest in that case drop the dodge score completely and just keep the -1 to hit as with shuttles. I have amended suggested entries for them. However we might then complaints from people that they are too easy to kill............

I would not bother with it for dogfighting - its a straight roll to see who wins and who is eliminated.

 

[AdmiralGrafSpee]

This is a great discussion guys. My random thoughts:

1) Like NA - keep fighter movement AFTER ship movement - and no need for "squadron rules"
2) Like NA - have fighters attack at the in the attack phase like ships - but unlike it have them attack at the same time their carrier attacks (instead of all fighters on one side)
3) No dodge rating for fighters - just use the -1 to hit like shuttles - some fighters can have multiple hits to represent that they are tough (although 3 hits should be reserved for the likes of A-20's and F-111's which we may never see)
4) No special "defensive weapons" that react to a fighters movement or whatever - you only get to attack fighters in the regular attack phase
5) dogfighting is cool and I like it
6) I like the different fighter weapons too - I think they should be similar to the phasers they represent - except half range with (but no range penalty for firing over half of their new reduced range) and no kill zone - so a Ph-2f would be: range 6, accurate +1, precise, no rang mods
7) Fighter drones - I don't think the damage should be reduced below 1d6 - if the fighter has enough drones to be a real threat give it 1 AD of drones (with reduced ranges) but keep it at d6 damage - anything less it becomes too painful to try to shoot them all down and it messes with the drone limit rules - I also think the drones should auto hit at those ranges.
8) Drone limits - I'd say give two options. 1) each fighter counts as a single ship for drone limits. OR 2) a carrier can coordinate the drone attacks from its fighter against ships. In this case a ship may be attacked by any number of fighters as long as they are all from the same carrier. No other drones (from other carrier's fighters or other ships) can target a ship attacked in this way.
9) I like the dogfighting drones as Da Boss presented - just gives a fighter a bonus to dogfighting - very simple - very good
10) Let ADD systems attack fighters in the attack phase. A ship gets to attack one fighter per ADD rating within 4". Roll the die 1- miss and lose a rating, 2-3 miss, 4-5 one damage, 6 two damage. The ADD maybe be used defensively later as well (or earlier).

-Tim

 

[Da Boss]

1) Like NA - keep fighter movement AFTER ship movement - and no need for "squadron rules"
Agreed
2) Like NA - have fighters attack at the in the attack phase like ships - but unlike it have them attack at the same time their carrier attacks (instead of all fighters on one side)
Could do - I prefere the old style of seperate phase but not a major thing for me
3) No dodge rating for fighters - just use the -1 to hit like shuttles - some fighters can have multiple hits to represent that they are tough (although 3 hits should be reserved for the likes of A-20's and F-111's which we may never see)
Happy for that
4) No special "defensive weapons" that react to a fighters movement or whatever - you only get to attack fighters in the regular attack phase
Ok if fighters firing in normal phase that works
5) dogfighting is cool and I like it
Its evocative and works
6) I like the different fighter weapons too - I think they should be similar to the phasers they represent - except half range with (but no range penalty for firing over half of their new reduced range) and no kill zone - so a Ph-2f would be: range 6, accurate +1, precise, no rang mods
Pretty much what I have but I wuld keep the weapon range down to about 6"
7) Fighter drones - I don't think the damage should be reduced below 1d6 - if the fighter has enough drones to be a real threat give it 1 AD of drones (with reduced ranges) but keep it at d6 damage - anything less it becomes too painful to try to shoot them all down and it messes with the drone limit rules - I also think the drones should auto hit at those ranges.
Drones are the bggest pain in the game - that and defensive fire - they are still seeking so autohit at anything upto and including 18".
8) Drone limits - I'd say give two options. 1) each fighter counts as a single ship for drone limits. OR 2) a carrier can coordinate the drone attacks from its fighter against ships. In this case a ship may be attacked by any number of fighters as long as they are all from the same carrier. No other drones (from other carrier's fighters or other ships) can target a ship attacked in this way.
As previous answer - its a pain with drones - I don't really want to track fighteers from specific carriers. If they are still multihit D6 I would go with your option 1.
9) I like the dogfighting drones as Da Boss presented - just gives a fighter a bonus to dogfighting - very simple - very good
Thank you - I think a few simple rules like this can make them both fun and evocative
10) Let ADD systems attack fighters in the attack phase. A ship gets to attack one fighter per ADD rating within 4". Roll the die 1- miss and lose a rating, 2-3 miss, 4-5 one damage, 6 two damage. The ADD maybe be used defensively later as well (or earlier).
Seems OK to me

-Tim[/quote]

 

[Myrm]

The problem with all of these is the Dodge.

Drop the whole dodge thing. Fighters should not be able to challenge Cruisers head on.

All depends on how you use Dodge - its still going to be a useful tool for having a fighter model represent a wing of 2-6 fighters - that to me is the only reason to include a dodge rating, to allow abstraction of ultiple fighters and their drone loads down to reasonable numbers in AD terms while retaining alevle of survivability - having used high Dodge fighters in B5 ACtA the wrong set of roll still blats your fighter wings. It represented in B5 the survivability of multiple fghters who could get their weaponr on target despite losses and incoming firepower.

If you are having fighters definitively as a single SFU fighter then don't even think of including a Dodge figure is my advice.

If you are insistent on it then I would suggest that a) ships be allowed to use defensive fire against fighters within a certain range (as for Antifighter rating in B5 ACTA) and make that ignore dodge and/or b) give Aegis (limited or full) the ability to ignore Dodge.