Fighters - version 1.1

Ben2 said:
I've had another read of Module K, which has refreshed in my mind why so many people absolutely hate PFs. Interceptors I could happily convert over and I've got some ideas for them, but PFs have the firepower of a frigate in something that would have 6-8 points of damage and would be substantially cheaper.

I've just about finished my personal run at PFs and Interceptors, got the rules pretty much settled, and most of the stats out. I did some tweaks to see how things worked but I have a full flotilla of PFs running around 250-300points and despite that there are downsides I've put in....

Interceptors as you say are fragile things....
 
SneakyPete said:
Hoping that fighters NEVER make it into the official rules.

..and this is where we differ. One reason is my choicie of race is Hydran, but the second is that for me ACtA is the right system to make fighters work easily.
Ive played too much B5 for that not to be possible - when a game still plays well with 40-50 fighter tokens on the board with a dozen ships then the system is doing something right.
They have to be done right as too much SFU simulation will introduce all the extra workload tha made them so hard to deal with in a casual SFB game....but big fleet action IS the right scale to be having a carrier about - SFB and FC run at singles to squadron size best and that is not the right place for a wing of a CVA - the rules run them but the players have to invest crazy amounts of time.

I will say right now, that I think that if fighters do not get abstracted some down to 'flights on a base' the system would risk re-introducing with too many maoeuvre units and so the worst of those issues we hoped to avoid. It will not provide an 'SFU sim under ACtA rules' that way, but it will provide an 'SFU average under ACtA style'.
 
The Fast Trait is reserved for units which have a movement advantage on the strategic map in Federation and Empire; since gunboats do not have this ability elsewhere, they should not be considered as Fast in ACtA:SF. (I don't think they'd need it, frankly.)

In terms of units per base, I would think that the one-craft-per-base system used over in ACtA:NA should work well enough; so long as the actual choice of fighters to be ported into the system is kept to a reasonable level, things should still be manageable enough.

And as for Hydrans, I wouldn't be surprised if the actual number of Stingers per ship was kept more in line with the reduced numbers seen in FC, relative to how many you'd see in SFB. (Many of the Hydran ships have the same amount of fighters in SFB and FC, but a few here and there have a couple less.)
 
I'd be tempted to cut dogfight drones down to only being used in dogfights - possibly make it a trait with a countdown value - or even eliminate it altogether and when working out fighter stats, just add one point to the dogfight rating of those fighters whose standard load included them.

Eliminating it as a weapon line does make it easy, leaving it as a trait is a halfway house allows you to do things like make Dogfight drone tests at short range for killing enemy fighters or drones a la B5 anti-fighter rating - possibly at a cost of the rating as well as the expend for +1 dogfight idea. Bit more bookkeeping, a closer sim of the SFU but works best on multifighter bases IMO.

In terms of limiting fighter types in play, I would suggest that the fighter loadout for a base, pod or ship actually be prescribed - to a lesser or greater degree but there's nothing wrong with offering standard loads - its not like players cannot go and then tweak things for their own games but standardise as, well, standard.

I am concerned that Aegis doesnt really offer what I considered the main benefit I saw in SFU and that was multiple stabs at defensive fire. The defensive fire rules already allow sequential use of various defenses like ADD, tractor and phasers and drones you know the result - so I'd be tempted to have Aegis have as its prime function let you fire your phasers one by one and see the effect rather than declare use up front - with any non-used still being available for offensive fire - rather than being an extended free IDF. You could always let it add ADD in an IDF as a further bonus.

Oh and while I realise you have cut fighter drones to range 12, the fluff comment is heavy drones are shorter ranged - might I suggest they should be made shorter effective range as well...

Just my 0.02
 
If the game ever degenerates into what deciding what mix of fighter model gets what mix of weapons load out at the individual fighter level, I'll pass.

I would hope that at worst, each race gets a fighter, a fighter bomber and maybe a bomber and that one base of fighters equals one squadron with each squadron having a defensive value, an attack value in AD and a range for that value or a series of stepped values by range. Each squadron would be treated as a single ship going crippled at X damage and disappearing after X+ is reached.

Make them generic, make them an aggregated single squadron entity and keep it simple. It should be fast and painless and if we treat each squadron/wing/flight as a single entity/ship then the mechanics can stay consistent with the current system. If we absolutely must, we could even create different ship/squadron stats for F-type X versus F-type Y but adding different floors of drone should be avoided and at worst case, treated like the various plasmas.
 
McKinstry said:
If the game ever degenerates into what deciding what mix of fighter model gets what mix of weapons load out at the individual fighter level, I'll pass.

Primary reason to cut the dogfight drones in my mind...equally loads should be standard - we don't have drone selection in the main ships and do not need it for fighters and I would go so far as to suggest we do not want it for fighters. The comment about differentiating heavy from normal drones was due to the fact Ben has put them in on fighter types. In some respects I'd be inclined to just abstract them away to being more AD of drones.

I would hope that at worst, each race gets a fighter, a fighter bomber and maybe a bomber
The variety for an Empire should be driven by the needs of the race not a simple design cut off which would be a kludge in the system and as bad as having every man and their dog decide how many F-6 fighters they are taking today. For example, the Feds have a large number and even if you get rid of the extraneous bits you still want the opportunity to give them higher variety....others Empires can have less. The three types you mention will cover a lot of Empires and is not an unreasonable design start point, I think but I would rather the design end point be led by SFU not hard limits.

Standardise the fighter mix on a ship, sure - I think that would help a lot in cutting the numbers down in play at one time which is the main issue for playability. B5 ACtA simply gave you the fighters on board a ship and limited chance to change it (I think a couple of ships varied based on time period but other than that, maybe one or two ships in the game gave the player any flexibility).
You can get a few more fighter types out there without too much difficulty - half a dozen would be perfectly workable for a high variety race if needed, 2 for a race which doesnt do a lot. I think considering the General War time period would also allow you to cut out a lot of types - just take the standards available for the races - again using standard fleet mixes will go toward this.

B5 works fine with a lots of fighter types in my experience, although it is in the level of variety you are hoping for as a maximum. I would want to avoid the B5 thing of being able to buy loose wings of fighters - require them to be with a support vessel (carrier/base). Again keeps them reasonable.

and that one base of fighters equals one squadron with each squadron having a defensive value, an attack value in AD and a range for that value or a series of stepped values by range. Each squadron would be treated as a single ship going crippled at X damage and disappearing after X+ is reached.

I have done a basic run at fighter rules myself, and started with a 3 fighter/base strategy. I ditched any idea of crippled options - it was boom or bust, the token is there and functional, or it is dead ideally with only one damage point (I went for a save mechanism to give averages for numbers of fighters per base) with a possible exception or two but that was my aim - that came from a B5 battle with a bunch of shielded shadow fighters taking too much time just for recording shield level - PITA.
 
Getting rid of "loose fighters" has already been done over in A Call to Arms: Noble Armada; as handled in a line from Fleets of the Fading Suns:

In addition, fighters may no longer be purchased without a carrier.

Also, FotFS added in a set of "standard" fighter complements for each carrier currently available in ACtA:NA. A handful of fighters have a discounted cost listed for swap-ins, while others would have to be paid for using the standard point values in the various fleet lists.

-----

To give one example of this change, House Hawkwood originally had two fighter types available to them in the core ACtA:NA rulebook; the Fitzhugh-class fighter and the Kestrel-class torpedo bomber. At the time, their carriers started off with their hangar bays empty; so you had to pay for each additional fighter (10 points for the Fitzhugh, 20 for the Kestrel) to fill them up yourself.

However, as of FotFS, all Hawkwood carriers now get a standard complement of Fitzhughs for free; while the upgrade cost of swapping each one for a Kestrel is now +5 points. (The new fighter type added in the second module, the Aurora stealth fighter, is +10 points.)

To give these figures some context, the two main fleet carriers that House Hawkwood currently has available are the Malcolm light carriers and the Osprey heavy carriers. The Malcolm and Osprey have Craft scores of 8 and 18 respectively; plus Carrier traits of 2 and 6 to cover how many they can launch from their bays in a single turn.

Each Malcolm costs 150 points, while an Osprey clocks in at 490; given how many fighters they can carry, the new rule changes make taking them considerably cheaper points-wise than they had been hitherto. (A fully-loaded Osprey had cost 670 points just with Fitzhughs, and even more if you took one or more of the more powerful fighter types instead.)

And they aren't even the most fighter-heavy faction in the Fading Suns universe; that honour goes to the Kurgans.

And yet, despite these changes made in order to make carriers more viable to use, and despite that setting going with a one-fighter-per-base model (as opposed to the flights from the B5 days), it still seems to hold together well enough.

-----

If a similar concept were to emerge in ACtA:SF, one could take the sample BoM Fed CVS and make similarly streamlined choices; yet ones which are still considered to be valid (pending formal publication, at least) by ADB.

So, a conversion of the BoM strike carrier would be said to have F-18s as standard; specifically, F-18s based on the version you see on the playtest Ship Card (two phaser-3s, two drones, and nothing else). The F-15 and A-10 (again, strictly based on the BoM samples; two phaser-3s and a photon for the A-10, and one Phaser-G and four drones for the F-15) would be available as upgrades; but the fighters themselves would not have any of the more intricate loadout or upgrade options from SFB. (Save them for a Star Fleet Universe port of Blue Shift.)

If the goal is not to make carriers overly cheap (the way they currently are in ACtA:NA) then you would still oblige a player to pay for each F-18 the ship comes with, and then insist on a premium for swapping one or more out for an A-10 or F-15.

Over on the Klingon side of things, something similar could be doen for the D7V; stick with Z-Ys and Z-Ds (again, based on those shown on the sample Ship Card; two phaser-3s and four drones for the Z-Y, and one phaser-3 and a disruptor for the Z-D) and state which fighter type the ship carries as standard. (I forget which off the top of my head.)

And for the Kzintis, their playtest BoM carrier has only one fighter type anyway; I think they are more or less based on the TAAS, but I'm not 100% certain on that.

Oh, and accccording to the playtest BoM fighter/carrier rules, no more than one drone can be fired from a fighter per turn; it might be wise to keep that rule here, too. (Doing this would mean that the F-15 upgrade buys you more turns the fighter can stay on the board as an effective unit before it has to come back to its carrier for re-arming; but doesn't actually give you a heavier drone throw-weight over the F-18 in any given turn.)

On the otherr hand, since ACtA:NA has dogfight rules, and modifiers, already, keeping the SFB digfight ratings would make sense; though, as with BoM, I would sooner see dogfight drones skipped altogether.

-----

Actually, I did a sample of what an Omega equivalent of this setup might look like over in the other thread, with a Mæsron space control ship offered along with representative fighter and PF types.

All in, my first shot at the units involved has the SCS, plus fighters and gunboats, come to 910 points, just with the standard squadron and flotilla compositions; that should give an example of how much of a player's allocation points they would have to assign to take even one of these units into battle.

(Granted, much of that additional cost is from the gunboat flotilla; but a standard 8-4-2 squadron as used by the Mæsron Alliance would still add 240 points to the cost of a given fleet carrier, even if the ship had no gunboats to worry about.)

-----

If you stick with charging a player for each fighter his carriers are obliged to take, the overall costs of fielding fighters add up pretty quickly; which, in and of itself, would help put a natural brake on numbers used, and make sticking with the same kind of single-fighter bases seen in ACtA:NA not overly much of a hassle... so long as the fighters themselves go through a "Borders of Madness filter" rather than have all of their bells and whistles ported straight over from SFB.
 
I'm going to go over the additions to fleet lists for fighters and add the fighter costs and optional fighters in to all the carriers, but it'll take a while.

However it'll make it simpler.
 
Back
Top