Escorts, Carrier, Fighters Pt 2 - Fighters - UNOFFICIAL

Finlos said:
Yes, ADDs work quite nicely on fighters. The only downside was that when fighters were in ADD range they were close enough to hurt your ship. No sacrifice, no victory & all that...

Cool. I also meant can we mount ADD on fighters to represent, what were they called, type VI drones or something as well? I know only the really heavy fighters had actual ADD in SFB (F-111) but I think it would be a neat mechanic to make fighters good against other fighters or drones but not so threatening to ships.

Probably just the "really good" drone fighters (F-14/F-15 for example) should actually have anti-ship drones on them. If every single fighter is going to have anti-ship drones its going to be too much to deal with.

Massed Ph-3 that can actually maneuver into killzone is enough of a problem for ships.
 
Completely misread the question then. My SFB stuff is stashed away somewhere but I believe the info you're after is that later drone fighters have several type-VI drones which are essentially smaller drones effective only against drones and other fighters.

Others will undoubtedly correct / add info I've missed.
 
AdmiralGrafSpee said:
Finlos said:
Yes, ADDs work quite nicely on fighters. The only downside was that when fighters were in ADD range they were close enough to hurt your ship. No sacrifice, no victory & all that...

Cool. I also meant can we mount ADD on fighters to represent, what were they called, type VI drones or something as well? I know only the really heavy fighters had actual ADD in SFB (F-111) but I think it would be a neat mechanic to make fighters good against other fighters or drones but not so threatening to ships.

Probably just the "really good" drone fighters (F-14/F-15 for example) should actually have anti-ship drones on them. If every single fighter is going to have anti-ship drones its going to be too much to deal with.

Massed Ph-3 that can actually maneuver into killzone is enough of a problem for ships.

I actually just abstracted away Type VI drones so there were less things to track. In SFB there were also Type VI drone sized RALADs (rail launched anti-drones). ADDs are good against fighters, but I've included the possibility of them missing (1 - miss and out of ammo, 2-3 - miss, 4-6 hit and 1 damage to fighter).

In SFB almost all the drone race fighters have two or more anti-ship drones. There are a handful of fighters that are pure interceptors.

Drones/plasma weapons/disruptors/photons/phaser-2s are the weapons for non-Hydran fighters in addition to a phaser-3 or two (or phaser-G on some Federation fighters).

Fighters will make overlapping formations important, but that leaves ships vulnerable to damage from explosions.

I got nothing done today in going over the fighter stuff, I was so horribly ill I didn't get out of bed till 12. I've got a hospital appointment tomorrow, I will hopefully get some stuff done tomorrow afternoon, hopefully I won't be too drugged up.
 
Finlos said:
Completely misread the question then. My SFB stuff is stashed away somewhere but I believe the info you're after is that later drone fighters have several type-VI drones which are essentially smaller drones effective only against drones and other fighters.

Others will undoubtedly correct / add info I've missed.

First fighter to use Type VI drones was the F-4 in Y167, which was the first Federation fighter to be used on carriers (the F-8 is also available in Y167 but was for planets and bases).
 
Hope you feel better soon Ben and thanks for all the work you have put in thus far - its appreciated :)

Finlos said:
Completely misread the question then. My SFB stuff is stashed away somewhere but I believe the info you're after is that later drone fighters have several type-VI drones which are essentially smaller drones effective only against drones and other fighters.

Others will undoubtedly correct / add info I've missed.

Any "Dogfight" drones can be abstracted away into the fighters dogfight score which I think Ben has done already
 
Been thinking some more on this one.

From the escorts thread there seems to be a number of questions popping up about the seeking weapons from fighters overwhelming a single target much as they could from ships until the 3 attacker limit was introduced.

Flights seem to be the method used for this but a don't like the idea of flights. They are more restrictive than the SFB or even FC versions of fighters and come in different quantities depending upon the carrier.

I was thinking that instead of limiting the number of fighters that can fire at a target due to interference, limit the range to point blank only. The drones are only in the air for a moment and won't interfere with each other. This then introduces a new set of rules needed for attack runs.

Defensive fire: each phaser may fire once at an attacking fighter. A hit nullifies the attack completely. Fighters may have a jink save or other such ability to dodge through the fire. Any weapon may be used in any arc, however if there is an arc with no phasers then fighters get a 4+ 'clear route' save against hits. (Fighters are the reason given for the rear arc PH3s on the romulan ships in the original SFB).
ADDs hit on a 5+ only but still run out on a 1.

If the fighter completes the attack run then it lands it's payload on target and runs! If it fails it may be destroyed or just the weapons it launched.
You could also give fighter phasers the weak trait so that they cannont hurt ships with active shields.
Drones could also be scaled down for damage. Ship drones of polaris or trident size would pack more wallop than a fighter mounted hellfire or tomahawk size.
After its attack run a roll could be made to see if the fighter escapes to rearm. say a 2+ roll with a -2 if nullified by a phaser and -1 for every 12" from the carrier it is going to rearm at. If it makes the roll bring it straight back to the carrier to rearm. If it doesn't then remove it from the game. Less massing around and record keeping.

Dogfighting remains as is and fighters can protect ships from attack runs.

Fighter stats may look like:

F18
Speed: 12"
Turns: SM
dodge: 5+

Weapons
Phaser 3, range 6, AD2, Precise killzone 2 weak
Drones, range 0, AD3, Multi hit D3 Devastating seeking

A10
Speed: 12"
Turns SM
Dodge 4+

Weapons
Phaser 3, range 6, AD2, Precise killzone 2 weak
Drones, range 0, AD2, Multi hit D3 Devastating seeking
Photon, range 0, AD1, Multihit 4 devastating

What do you all think?

Geoff
 
Now this is interesting.

Instead of drones essentially they become bombs or like the WWII dumbfire rockets.

I did toy with lower warhead strength, but in SFB ironically late war fighters can carry even bigger drone warheads than ships (the Type IV drones, which would translate as multihit 2d6 in ACTA).

However with phaser, disruptor, photon and plasma fighters running around, it would put the drone races at too much of a disadvantage.

What do people think about drastically shortening the range on seeking weapons?
 
I just had a mental image of fighter pilots dodging and weaving getting close to the target before firing their missiles and peeling off before they hit the shields!
 
Been thinking on this and in a system where a AntiDrone could kill every target in range the ideal of a dive bomber won't work. In FedCom the push to limit fighters was driven by drone counter clutter a problem direct fire drones in ACTASF does not have. If people want to limit weapons on Fighters thats fine but the trade of is range and speed. As was stated fighters that match the time period that most ACTASF ships are set in are fast and nimble there is no reason they should not be speed 12 or even higher. Also if a ship can kill a fighter at range 16 (Phaser-1 range) then a fighter should be able to hit the ship in return.
 
Therin lieth the problem!

Write rules so they work as in SFB they will totally dominate the game. Tone them down with limitations and you have to start record keeping something chronic. Leave them out and a realyy great concept that does exist in the SFB universe is missing along with all of the escorts, carriers and many versions of battleships and dreadnoughts.

How fighters work for ACTA SF will need alot of braing crunching and chewing through lots of ideas. The more of us on it the better the end result will be, but the more work it will take to get there! We should probably explore every idea possible and see what fits and works but a clear design brief is needed to start nailing it down.

Both the long range stand off and the close in attack can fit into the same rules set. For example long range fire could be limited in its effectiveness but preserve the fighter whereas a close range 'bombing' attack run could be more effective at causing damage but the fighter is more at risk.

This could be explained with limited targeting systems and electronic jamming.
Ships use powerful remote systems to guide in their seeking weapons but fighters only have limited capability in that respect. Fighter drones could simply have a reduced to hit roll on their drones and plasmas compared to ship mounted ones but if attacking from very close they are much more likely to get a clear lock and avoid having seeking weapons shot down or guidance systems jammed.
This also give tactical choices to the players. Close for the kill but risk the fighter or stand off safely but do little damage.

Geoff
 
While fighters are significantly smaller than ships (less mass) they also have comparatively cheaper engines. Engines built for disposable units by the cheapest bidder and all that. The best fighters in SFB, the Stinger-2 and F-15 (to name but two) have a max speed of 15 which would translate to 7"-8" in ACTA. Being Super Maneuverable and moving after ships are two significant advantages which should not be forgotten.

What I mentioned about engines above would equally apply to targeting computers with respect to range and targeting capabilities.

It's worth repeating that I want to see fighters in ACTA as a viable option but not a superweapon
 
Rambler said:
Been thinking on this and in a system where a AntiDrone could kill every target in range the ideal of a dive bomber won't work. In FedCom the push to limit fighters was driven by drone counter clutter a problem direct fire drones in ACTASF does not have. If people want to limit weapons on Fighters thats fine but the trade of is range and speed. As was stated fighters that match the time period that most ACTASF ships are set in are fast and nimble there is no reason they should not be speed 12 or even higher. Also if a ship can kill a fighter at range 16 (Phaser-1 range) then a fighter should be able to hit the ship in return.


We know that the fighter rules for ACTA work - i think that should be the starting point - and then how can they have small adaptions to make them fit to a certain degree SFU - with all the apparently huge issue that have already arise for those games.

We know fighters work with short ranged and limited weapons - balanced by speed and agility.

I don't see why a fighter should be able to fire back at a ship if we follow the previous successful iterations - they can dodge and weave to get close enough to fire as suggested and as represented by a dodge save.

ACTA did (does?) have a problem with drones and defences - if we add drone fighters to the mix - the problem comes back.
 
I have a different suggestion for fighters. Make them like drones without any counters. Give them a range of 8 to 16max (spd 15 in SFB), a weapons strike value that would be similar to what they carried and could do. This would be a special weapon that only carrier capable ships would have. EX: F18 carried 2xph 3 + 4x drones, with a speed of 15. So a 6 pack of F18's could possibly do 12x ph3 damage (12AD to 6") and 4x 1AD with drones. Now most of the time the defense of the individual ships would take out around 1/2 of the fighters so maybe give an attack value of 6AD with maybe 4AD for drones. 10AD with a double reload penalty to reuse the fighter attack value. This would avoid the excessive amount of ships in play, extra note taking (to be avoided for sure), and the messing up of "no more than 3 ships targeting 1 ship rule", and would simplify the inclusions of carriers in the battle. Also you could have 1/2 the attack dice if you put the range from 8-16" like most heavy weapons to simulate a greater loss of fighters due to being shot at more. If you have escort ships within 6" of the carrier you could drop 1 of the double reload penalties to allow it's ability to handle fighters more efficiently. I would be very open to suggestions on how to modify the values to be realistic but not drag the game into a mire of too many ships to move and shoot with.
 
So I proposed making fighters a new weapons system rather than an individual ship/squadrons. I did a bit of research and found that a FFV from SFB would come out somewhat like this:

95points + 60points for fighters. Use the SFB sheet for the weapons, hit boxes and so on. Then you add the fighter value to the ship which is 6x F18 (2xph3+4xdrones, spd 13, and cost -8bpvx1.25 =10 points). So 2x ph3=2 AD, add 4x drones (3AD average hits= 12AD) for a total of 14AD. Give it a range of 8-13max (=speed) at half AD and full AD at range 1-7. The cost of the 6 fighters would add 60points to the 95 point ship making it a total cost of 155points in CTA. It will have the double reload penalty and the damage would be a "T" value to simulate the arcs not being restricted.

It may be the attack dice values are too low for the point cost of the ship. We will have to play test it a bit. The alternative to this is to cut the cost of the "fighter" weapon system in half. So the previous ship would cost around 125 with fighters if that was done.
 
The problem with making them a weapon system is fighters are capable of independent strikes without the carrier present. There are a half dozen scenerios involving a significant number of attrition units (Fighters and Gunboats) attacking fleet units without any capital ship support of there own.

Any rule that is made for fighters needs to account for these situations as well.
 
I think abstracting them that much is going a little far.

I will complete a revision of the fighters stuff on Monday. I've just not been well enough this weekend.
 
I haven't seen a post where anyone describes how fighters work in that other ACtA universe. That might be useful, and as suggested, a good place to start.
 
as requested ACTA B5 fighter rules - Noble Armada is similar

Using Fighters
Fighters are represented as flights in A Call to Arms, using either a single counter or base (if you are using miniatures). Though counters and bases show six separate fighters, the entire flight is treated as a single entity in the game, much like a ship. In fact, a flight of fighters is treated as a ship for all purposes, unless otherwise mentioned below.

All ranges for Fighters are measured from the edge of their base or counter, rather than the centre. Note that fighters do not have Crew Quality scores.

Deployment
Unless otherwise stated by the scenario, all ships carrying flights of fighters may deploy one flight before the game begins. This flight may be placed anywhere in your deployment zone, and may even be left in hyperspace if those rules are being used.

Flights purchased separately from ships are deployed normally.

Movement Phase
A fleet with fighters moves all its ships in initiative order as normal. Once all the ships of all the fleets involved in the battle have been moved, the player who won the initiative must then choose whether to move his fighters first or force his opponent to do so. Once this decision has been made, then all the flights of fighters in a fleet are moved at the same time. Then the opposing fleet does the same with their fighters. This is done to reflect the relative freedom of movement small craft have in battles involving huge warships and also keeps things quick and easy in battles featuring many flights of fighters.

Anti-Fighter Weaponry
Many warships mount highly specialised point defence weaponry, developed to pinpoint small, fast-moving fighters and knock them out of the sky before they can launch a devastating attack.

Ships with the Anti-Fighter X or Advanced Anti-Fighter trait automatically roll against any fighters within 2” at the end of the Movement Phase. They will roll as many dice as their Anti-Fighter trait score indicates, splitting this between multiple flights if they desire. Any dice that equal or exceed the Hull of a flight will automatically destroy it, ignoring any Dodge trait the fighter possesses.

Anti-Fighter rolls may not be made against flights involved in dogfights. However, some special fighters may also have the Anti-Fighter trait, which may be used just before a dogfight is initiated, as enemy fighters move into contact (if opposing fighters have the trait, they are resolved simultaneously). Once the dogfight has started, the trait may not be used.

It should be noted that the Anti-Fighter and Advanced Anti-Fighter traits are not counted as weapons for the purposes of these rules and will not be affected by a ship being Crippled or under Special Actions, nor will they be affected by traits on fighters, such as Stealth. However, as traits, they can be lost as normal when the ship is Crippled.

Attack Phase
Though the bigger guns mounted on warships are designed to hit other large vessels and not small fighters, there is always a chance that a flight can be hit and destroyed by these huge discharges of energy.

A flight may be attacked in the same way as a ship. Any successful hit that equals or exceeds a flight’s Hull score will automatically destroy it, but the flight may use any Dodge trait it possesses as normal.

(Hull score is the to hit number so SF ships are effectiovely Hull 4, in B5 fighters ranged from 3-6)

Fighter Attacks
Fighters make their attacks in the Attack Phase, before any other ships may fire. The player who won the initiative for the turn attacks with all of his flights first, followed by his opponent. Simply nominate targets for each flight and then resolve their attacks, just as if you were nominating targets for a ship’s weapon systems against different targets – in effect, all of your flights act as a single ship in the Attack Phase, with each flight being one weapon system.

Flights attack as normal, though you will usually find their weapons have a very limited range. You may fire on other fighter flights, treating their attacks as if they were ships, as described above. However, you will find fighters are far more effective at destroying one another in dogfights.

Any number of flights may attack a single ship in any one Attack Phase, and you are free to place them on top of a ship’s counter or base, though you may not stack flights upon each other. Flights that are in contact with a ship’s base or counter may ignore its Stealth trait, if present.

Dogfighting
Though most fleets rely heavily on Anti-Fighter weaponry for defence against hordes of fighters, there is only one sure way to effectively clear the skies – send your own fighters to destroy the enemy’s, so you are free to attack heavier warships without interference.

Once you move into base contact with an enemy flight, you are considered to be dogfighting and so follow these rules. Fighters may only conduct dogfights against other flights, not ships. A dogfight starts automatically once two or more flights are in contact with one another and no flight involved may move until the enemy has been destroyed – you will soon find it is very important to retain the initiative when fielding large numbers of fighters!

Every flight has a Dogfight score, as found in the Fleets of Babylon 5 section and the Fleet Lists book. This is a reflection of a fighter’s potential to move into position and destroy its enemy.

You resolve all dogfights your flights are involved in when you nominate your fighters to attack in the Attack Phase. When two opposing flights are engaged in a dogfight, both players roll one dice and add the Dogfight scores of their flight.

Add +1 to your dice roll for every extra flight you have in base contact with the enemy flight you are dogfighting. A Flight may support any number of dogfights in this manner but a flight supporting a dogfight may never initiate a dogfight itself. Other than this, it is up to you how you arrange your dogfights for the best advantage!
You may occasionally come across a situation where several flights have all jumped into a mass brawl where every flight is touching another. In cases such as this, working out who is dogfighting who can be confusing!

There is an easy way to resolve fights like this. Simply remember the following.

• The player who nominated his fighters to attack chooses which of the enemy flights will be attacked by each of his own flights, and which of his remaining flights will be supporting.
• If the defending player has any flights not directly engaged, only then may they support.
• No flight may both dogfight and support!
• Each separate dogfight will destroy just one enemy flight, no matter how many flights are supporting on each side.

Launching and Recovering Fighters
A few ships are able to carry a squadron or two of fighters. Other ships act as full-blown carriers and may have many such squadrons on board. Fighters act as point defence for larger vessels and are able to deliver precision attacks that, while light, can still cause a large amount of damage to an enemy.

A ship that has not performed a Special Action may launch one flight. At the end of the End Phase, place the flight anywhere within 3” of the ship. In the next turn, the flight is free to act.

Recovering a flight also requires a ship to not use any Special Actions, and for flights to be moved into contact with it. A ship may recover any friendly flights, even those belonging to other ships. However, it may only do so if it has less flights already on board than are listed in its Craft score on its roster. A Hyperion cruiser, for example, could not recover a wandering Starfury flight unless it had already launched its own.

Unless otherwise stated by a scenario or special rule, a ship carrying flights may deploy just one of those flights at the start of a battle, representing a routine combat space patrol as the ship searches for the enemy.

Supporting Ships and Flights
Most fighters are used to launch fast strikes at enemy ships or provide a long-ranged screen to stop such attacks. However, fighters are also adept at providing close escort for ships and other fighters, protecting them from any sudden attack.

Up to four flights may be moved onto the base or counter of a friendly ship, and one may be moved in contact with another flight. When this happens, the flights are automatically considered to be supporting the ship or flight and will be moved whenever the ship or flight is moved (though they will be forced to leave its base if the ship or flight travels further than their Speed). Flights may also be placed on the base of a ship before the battle starts.

Whenever an enemy flight attempts to attack the supported ship or flight, one or more supporting flights may be immediately moved in base contact with it, starting a dogfight. Whatever the result of the dogfight, the attacking flight may not go on to attack the ship or flight, even if it destroys all supporting flights. All defending flights that survive the dogfight may be returned to the base of the ship in the End Phase (even if they are locked in the dogfight).

If a supporting flight is not involved in a dogfight, it may attempt to shoot down incoming attacks aimed at the ship it is protecting. Each supporting flight adds +1 to the ship’s Interceptors trait (or temporarily grants it the Interceptors trait if the ship does not possess it). However, if any dice roll a 1, then a flight is automatically destroyed. A flight acting as an Interceptor must do so for a whole turn – you may not choose to withdraw it in the middle of the turn.

Any flight that only has weapons with the Weak trait may not be used to add to a ship’s Interceptors, as its weapons are simply not strong enough to repel heavy attacks

Example Fighters

Razik, Dedicated Interceptor - Centauri
Move 12", Hull 3, Dogfight +3, Dodge 2+,
Particle Gun Range 2" 1 AD,

Sentri, Multi-role - Centauri
Move 12", Hull 4, Dogfight +2, Dodge 2+
Particel Guns Range 2" 3AD

Rutarian - advanced stealth fighter - Centauri
Move 12", HUll 5, Dogfight +2, Dodge 2+, Stealth 4+
Particel Guns Range 2" 3AD TL (re-roll misses)
Ion bolt 2AD, Range 4" Precise, Double Damage
 
@Da Boss: Thanks for that. They seem to be a really basis for SF, having most of what's needed, but with only minor tweaks (Hull/to hit 4-6, etc).

  • Groups: great. Remove fighters from a group as damage is removed is a possibility to show them weakening to help cut down record-keeping
  • Short range weapons: fine. See the E4's and F5's disruptors as well as the shorter-ranged plasma's (after AD have been deducted). Fighter weapons, having limited power, could be even shorter. The individual weapons still have _their_ traits, after all.
  • Dogfight value: a Trait of +1, +2, etc - even +0 or -1 shows it could take part in a Dogfight but at a penalty.
  • Anti-Fighter weaponry: Phaser-G's = Advanced? Perhaps all Phaser-3s are automatically
    Advanced Anti-Fighter. It strikes me that phasers and some other weapons should be able to target fighter groups, too.
  • Hull: putting it to 4 puts it in line with the rest, as you said, Da Boss

The previously mentioned Dodge may work ok against major weapons and drones, but not in a dogfight.

Thanks again. :D
 
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