Empty Jump Hex Solutions: comments critiques and rants
- Thread starter captainjack23
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kristof65 said:
It's explicitly in the rules of Imperium.
I prefer to go by what is made explicit, than from inferences or implications.
Imperium predates CT, does it not?
Or they just forgot to mention it in CT. There's a lot they don't mention in CT that could have been made a lot clearer, after all - that's why these arguments over canon rage, because things were so ambiguous or unclear.
There are three games listed there - Mayday, Snapshot and AZH. Imperium is not listed there. While we can't take this list as an authoritive list of canon at the time, the distinct lack of mention of Imperium - which predates the three games mentioned - is rather telling, don't you think?[/quote]
JTAS 7 is way before the list from the reprint volumes. I distinctly recall seeing Imperium listed there. Since Marc wrote that list, you should probably blame him for the revisionism
. Was it ever not ridiculous?
Of course, the one time that most of it got swept away (TNE), most people made a huge fuss about it. And the most recent attempt at correcting part of it (ie. Avenger and the MGT Spinward Marches book) got stomped on by Marc. So it seems we can't really avoid it.
I used a similar event in my non-OTU setting to explain why the starshipscaptainjack23 said:
of the Solar Federation now use only the extremely expensive hyperdri-
ves bought from a neighbouring alien species instead of still using the
much cheaper jump drives they had been using for centuries.
Well, the new flagship of the Federation Fleet and its escort of cruisers
went on a mission to show the Federation's shining new flag along the
frontier. The squadron jumped into an empty hex, a routine task done
hundreds of times before. All seemed fine until the Admiral realized that
one ship was missing, the old fuel tanker that accompanied the capital
ships - it had misjumped.
The squadron had reactor fuel and provisions for three months, so the si-
tuation did not yet seem desperate, because someone would realize that
the ships were missing and start a rescue mission much earlier.
In fact there were several rescue attempts over those three months, but
an empty hex is a lot of empty space, and without the precise jump co-
ordinates it proved impossible to find the squadron in time.
When it was finally discovered, the ships were drifting powerless in space,
the crews dead, most having committed suicide before the life support
systems failed. The diaries and the messages to the families were publi-
shed and gave an impression of what had happened on the ships during
those three months of waiting for rescue or death.
Not long afterwards the Federation signed a trade agreement with the Pa-
shi, began to import their hyperdrives, and refitted all starships with hy-
perdrives. Jump drives were not outlawed, but people had started to fear
them because of the tragedy, and passengers refused to travel on ships
with jump drives - the jump drive disappeared within few years, except
on very few of the free trader ships out on the frontier.
Well, and if there had been no alternative to jump drives, at least jumps
into empty hexes would have ended for good with the desaster.
Perhaps something as simple as this story explains why the Vilani in the
OTU stopped to jump into empty hexes.
Imperium, as a game, works well. It's all solidly J2.
As the history of the 3I, not so well; it gives a starting state for the first of a series of wars.
Marc hasn't been talkative in available sources about how close the 1974 Imperium back-history is to the 1977 Traveller, nor the somewhat different 1981 Traveller, nor the 1984 Traveller system; nor has he discussed publicly that I have seen the growth of the imperial setting in the Traveller line.
Since it shows up on the canon list, and the information matches closely to AM Solomani, we know that some form of base was used for getting to/from barnards, that the drive was J1, and that, for whatever reason, they needed a station at midway.
We also know that the Vilani are extremely conservative. It is likely that they had EHJ's prior; it is also likely that they didn't have sufficient shipping volume, if we use CTHG as the model, for carrying 2J2 in the Nth IW period.
Let's see, TL 11, that's 3xPP%= 6% PP, 3% JD, 20% JF, 2% PF... about 35% for drives and fuel. 55% for 2J2... that's why no DSJ's. Biggest ships possible with the computers are 50KTd... smallest spinal is 5KTd..., plus another 5KTd for 50 bays... or 20%... plus max armor 36% of hull, plus 2% controls...
36% Drives & Fuel 1J2, 4wk
36% max armor
2% Bridge
10% spinal mount
10% bays
====
94%... rest is crew... crammed in, no less. You already sacrifice armor or weapons to fill crew. Knocking 20% more off to fit a second jump makes the ship unarmed or lightly armored.(AV 4) , or lighly armed with low-midling armor (AV 7), instead of AV 11...
J2 is about the last point you can really max out a design in multiple areas, and it's likely that Vilani J1 warships (under HG) are carrying 2J1...since they can afford to... but 1J2 due to having maxed out the hull capacities.
As for the 1JX limit... Bk2 didn't allow for not using your full max jump fuel when jumping less than max jump. I don't recall if jump fuel governors were in Bk5 or Adv 5.... but you always arrived JTanks dry; later additions allowed demountable and collapsible tankage, and drop tanks, and jump fuel governors so that you only burned fuel for the jump done...
As the history of the 3I, not so well; it gives a starting state for the first of a series of wars.
Marc hasn't been talkative in available sources about how close the 1974 Imperium back-history is to the 1977 Traveller, nor the somewhat different 1981 Traveller, nor the 1984 Traveller system; nor has he discussed publicly that I have seen the growth of the imperial setting in the Traveller line.
Since it shows up on the canon list, and the information matches closely to AM Solomani, we know that some form of base was used for getting to/from barnards, that the drive was J1, and that, for whatever reason, they needed a station at midway.
We also know that the Vilani are extremely conservative. It is likely that they had EHJ's prior; it is also likely that they didn't have sufficient shipping volume, if we use CTHG as the model, for carrying 2J2 in the Nth IW period.
Let's see, TL 11, that's 3xPP%= 6% PP, 3% JD, 20% JF, 2% PF... about 35% for drives and fuel. 55% for 2J2... that's why no DSJ's. Biggest ships possible with the computers are 50KTd... smallest spinal is 5KTd..., plus another 5KTd for 50 bays... or 20%... plus max armor 36% of hull, plus 2% controls...
36% Drives & Fuel 1J2, 4wk
36% max armor
2% Bridge
10% spinal mount
10% bays
====
94%... rest is crew... crammed in, no less. You already sacrifice armor or weapons to fill crew. Knocking 20% more off to fit a second jump makes the ship unarmed or lightly armored.(AV 4) , or lighly armed with low-midling armor (AV 7), instead of AV 11...
J2 is about the last point you can really max out a design in multiple areas, and it's likely that Vilani J1 warships (under HG) are carrying 2J1...since they can afford to... but 1J2 due to having maxed out the hull capacities.
As for the 1JX limit... Bk2 didn't allow for not using your full max jump fuel when jumping less than max jump. I don't recall if jump fuel governors were in Bk5 or Adv 5.... but you always arrived JTanks dry; later additions allowed demountable and collapsible tankage, and drop tanks, and jump fuel governors so that you only burned fuel for the jump done...
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
So, without stoking a fresh round of canon-ades, here it is:EDG said:
from the reprint volume of short adventures, on the page with the canon list.
Games translate elements of the Traveller universe into traditional, board and piece games. They allow adventure to continue with no GM.
This isn't an exact quote; I left the book at home. But I'm pretty sure the first sentence is close to verbatum.
So, I make that to mean that the games are already abstracted to some degree and seconndary. But, YMMV.
RandyT0001
Mongoose
In the Traveller Reprint series on the page before Book 0(zero) on the first column bottom paragraph it says:
"The Traveller Canon is defined as the set of Traveller materials published by GDW as Classic Traveller materials. This list details the titles which are properly included in the Traveller Canon."
Towards the top of the next column the game Imperium is listed as part of Traveller Canon.
"The Traveller Canon is defined as the set of Traveller materials published by GDW as Classic Traveller materials. This list details the titles which are properly included in the Traveller Canon."
Towards the top of the next column the game Imperium is listed as part of Traveller Canon.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
AKAramis said:
Actually, to cross a J2 gap, you only need fuel for J2+J1. So, even with a J2 capable ship, you gain 10% more although one might argue that an old J1 cannot underjump with less than full fuel; so make it a J1x3 ship - its pushing the duration, but doable.
Lose the spinal mount, you have a very decent heavy raider/frigate/demicruiser. 10% on bays means 50 100 ton bays (assuming 50K ship). a 5K raider is more likely, and still has a nasty bite -especially with complete surprise.
And then, there's tankers, which do exist in Imperium.
Along with the standard J2 warship, jump a 50K J1 milch cow with to the empty hex. It holds 2xJ1 + J2. Transfer fuel to injumping 50K J2 warship.
Tanker jumps back (J1), warship jumps to earth. War ends.
It does take a coordinated jump, but fleets already can do that. Its a bit risky, but worth the prize. Besides, if the tanker goes missing, the warship can still jump back (it only jumped J1 presumably).
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
RandyT0001 said:
And below that list, on the same page of the version, towards the bottom, column 2, I have is a note describing how each type of material is used.
Its clearly part of the same information.
Is it omitted in other versions than mine, perhaps ?
captainjack23 said:
If that's what it actually says (though Randy's quote is what I recall of it), then that's not really helpful at all: the statement "Games translate elements of the Traveller universe into traditional board and piece games" is a very general statement that doesn't really tell anybody anything about what specifically is translated at all.
Here's the exact quote from the Classic Books reprint - captianjack got the gist right:
Above that, the games list specifically gives a G1 - G6 two digit code for six of the eight games listed - Dark Nebula and Imperium have no such code listed. My assumption is that the six with listed codes are available in the reprints book, the other two are not. I don't have the Games reprint book, I'd love to see what it has to say about them in it's introduction.
Basically, it's vague enough that the whole thing can be interpreted either way, thus fueling further arguments. For me, based on the use of the word translate, and other references like the list of Traveller games in JoTAS #7, it looks the original intention was that Imperium was a second cousin to Traveller with it's own unique viewpoint. Or Traveller was the second cousin who became more popular. When Marc did up the canon list, Imperium had enough material to make it a valuable source of information, therefore he added it. With the sheer amount of infomation available, he may not have even remembered the inconsistancy was there.
Frankly, the only way I see any of the canon stuff being resolved is for Marc to publish a book outlining each of the inconsistancies, and how they were intended, and how he views things now. I seriously doubt that will ever happen. I honestly don't worry about it - I've never ran a Traveller game with a player more knowledgable of the Traveller universe than I - maybe someday I will, but I'm more likely to be a player in their campaign, in which case they call the shots. The only way I see little problems like this being a major issue is if some organization like the RPGA steps and starts running "Living" Traveller events.
Above that, the games list specifically gives a G1 - G6 two digit code for six of the eight games listed - Dark Nebula and Imperium have no such code listed. My assumption is that the six with listed codes are available in the reprints book, the other two are not. I don't have the Games reprint book, I'd love to see what it has to say about them in it's introduction.
Basically, it's vague enough that the whole thing can be interpreted either way, thus fueling further arguments. For me, based on the use of the word translate, and other references like the list of Traveller games in JoTAS #7, it looks the original intention was that Imperium was a second cousin to Traveller with it's own unique viewpoint. Or Traveller was the second cousin who became more popular. When Marc did up the canon list, Imperium had enough material to make it a valuable source of information, therefore he added it. With the sheer amount of infomation available, he may not have even remembered the inconsistancy was there.
Frankly, the only way I see any of the canon stuff being resolved is for Marc to publish a book outlining each of the inconsistancies, and how they were intended, and how he views things now. I seriously doubt that will ever happen. I honestly don't worry about it - I've never ran a Traveller game with a player more knowledgable of the Traveller universe than I - maybe someday I will, but I'm more likely to be a player in their campaign, in which case they call the shots. The only way I see little problems like this being a major issue is if some organization like the RPGA steps and starts running "Living" Traveller events.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
EDG said:
I only recalled randy's quote, also, which is why it stood out when I was looking for somthing else....for me, a useful example of gypsycomet's observations about rules and memory.
But yes. It suggests stuff to me, but that's me. And, in any case, it doesn't really effect a non canon exclusive discussion.
So. Vilani. What is up with those knotheads ?
kristof65 said:
He could do that in T5... at least for the rules governing jumps. If he unambiguously and explicitly states that ships equipped with jump drives can and always have been able to jump into and out of hexes without large masses there, then that would clarify things from T5 onwards. So if people want to stick to what Marc says then they'll have that at least.
I would really hope that he makes an effort to finally clarify all the things that people have been arguing about over the years in Traveller - this is his one chance to fix what's been broken or ambiguous in Traveller for ages. I guess it's up to the people on the private forum to raise these points and make sure he does something about them.
At this point, while explicitely stating things like this in T5 would clarify things for many people, for many others it won't change things. As you pointed out earlier (at least I think it was you), TNE attempted to fix certain things like making spaceships and space travel more 'realistic', and was met with derision by many.
I hope he takes the opportunity to in T5 as well, not that it will change things IMTU at all.
I hope he takes the opportunity to in T5 as well, not that it will change things IMTU at all.
Well yeah. If he does clarify it in T5 then at least the people who hang on every word he says will be satisfied, but the rest of us won't care a jot. But at least there'd be something concrete written there, unlike the current state of affairs.
I have to admit that I don't really get what the aim of this thread is anymore though... haven't we already got a bunch of suggested solutions to the "problem" from various people in this and the various other threads on the subject? If so, what else are we trying to figure out exactly?
I have to admit that I don't really get what the aim of this thread is anymore though... haven't we already got a bunch of suggested solutions to the "problem" from various people in this and the various other threads on the subject? If so, what else are we trying to figure out exactly?
Or here 
- assuming SJG hasn't jiggled around the website anyway, I'm not on JTAS anymore so I can't check:
http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?549
As qstor says though, you need a subscription to see any of it. They used to have a thing where you could see the first few hundred words but not anymore apparently
.
- assuming SJG hasn't jiggled around the website anyway, I'm not on JTAS anymore so I can't check:http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?549
As qstor says though, you need a subscription to see any of it. They used to have a thing where you could see the first few hundred words but not anymore apparently
.Wasn't it just to be a place for those suggested solutions? It got side tracked by the whole issue/canon argument it appears. I'll admit to being partially at fault for that - I wasn't around for the original discussions. I should have left my original post at just my suggested solution, rather than getting sidetracked on it. For the record, here's my suggestion again:EDG said:
Code:
The easiest solution is probably to consider how entering/exiting jump space works, and use the 100d limit. Perhaps one of the early design problems with J-drives wasn't getting INTO j-space, but getting OUT of it. The easiest way to counter that little technical issue at first is to make sure you attempt to jump to within 100d of a star or planet, knowing it's gravitational mass will eject you early. Now you're on target, so to speak, without having solved that particular technical problem.
Using this you can still technically jump into an "empty" hex with a BD, but if you combine it with computational accuracy issues, it becomes very difficult to do at lower tech levels - bright glowing stars and their 100d limits are relatively easy to aim for when compared to a BD and it's 100d limit. Miss getting that relatively small sphere and your ship may not come back out of j-space. or by the time it does, the crew and passengers are dead, dying and/or stark raving mad. Throw in rust's previous explaination for the Vilani reluctance, and it begins to make sense.
Then later on some genius figures out a simple way to exit j-space easily that's cheap and easy to retro fit to existing drives, and you no longer have to worry about the problem. Gives all sorts of interesting possibilities to model future history as well - IE, one of the Vilani's subjugated races figured out the trick long before hand, but withheld the secret while planning on using it for their rebellion. Or the IISS runs across a minor race who's reverse engineered an ancient Vilani J-drive that didn't have that particular trick. If the race is agressive, they withhold the secret; if they're friendly, they give it as a gesture of goodwill.If in doubt, post a quote from the original Book 2 Classic Traveller rules:
So the original canon Traveller banned Empty Hex Jumps; you were only allowed to jump between star systems. However, that prohibition wasn't stated explicitly, and so when some clever designer came up with the idea of dismountable tanks for the 'Traveller Adventure', everybody said "Cool!" rather than "Hey, that contradicts some things we've already written!" Sadly, that sort of thing seems to have happened quite a lot in the early days of roleplaying. :wink:
As for a solution, the one presented in GT:IW works perfectly well for me, and I'm not sure why people are struggling so hard to re-invent the jump precipitation wheel.
Calculating a jump from one gravity well to another is fairly easy. Remove the gravity wells from the equation and it becomes something that the entire computing power of a high-tech world would need months or years to solve. Then at some time during the Aslan-Solomani Wars, some unknown genius invented a new mathematical theory that allowed deep-space jumps to be calculated almost as easily as star-to-star jumps.
The neatness of the explanation is that it still allows the Vilani to have crossed 2-parsec rifts before the invention of J-2. If they really had to, the Bureaux could have found the money for a planet-sized network of computers working night and day for a year to calculate the coordinates for a deep-space jump. Once done, send a probe, and start shuttling J-1 tanker ships to the location to create a fuel base.
Or alternatively, strap grav motors to a huge rock and send it into deep space, wait 30 years, then jump to it and then jump across to the other side of the rift. You'll need to keep sending new rocks as the old ones drift out of range, so it's hideously expensive and requires planning in terms of centuries; but the First Imperium was good at that kind of thing. Once they had J-2 they could stop bothering, of course.
And if you want your Hindenburg-style disaster, imagine if one of those rocks had hit an inhabited planet. The trauma would be massive enough that the Vilani would regard the very idea of near-c rocks as being utterly unthinkable forevermore...
So the original canon Traveller banned Empty Hex Jumps; you were only allowed to jump between star systems. However, that prohibition wasn't stated explicitly, and so when some clever designer came up with the idea of dismountable tanks for the 'Traveller Adventure', everybody said "Cool!" rather than "Hey, that contradicts some things we've already written!" Sadly, that sort of thing seems to have happened quite a lot in the early days of roleplaying. :wink:
As for a solution, the one presented in GT:IW works perfectly well for me, and I'm not sure why people are struggling so hard to re-invent the jump precipitation wheel.
Calculating a jump from one gravity well to another is fairly easy. Remove the gravity wells from the equation and it becomes something that the entire computing power of a high-tech world would need months or years to solve. Then at some time during the Aslan-Solomani Wars, some unknown genius invented a new mathematical theory that allowed deep-space jumps to be calculated almost as easily as star-to-star jumps.
The neatness of the explanation is that it still allows the Vilani to have crossed 2-parsec rifts before the invention of J-2. If they really had to, the Bureaux could have found the money for a planet-sized network of computers working night and day for a year to calculate the coordinates for a deep-space jump. Once done, send a probe, and start shuttling J-1 tanker ships to the location to create a fuel base.
Or alternatively, strap grav motors to a huge rock and send it into deep space, wait 30 years, then jump to it and then jump across to the other side of the rift. You'll need to keep sending new rocks as the old ones drift out of range, so it's hideously expensive and requires planning in terms of centuries; but the First Imperium was good at that kind of thing. Once they had J-2 they could stop bothering, of course.
And if you want your Hindenburg-style disaster, imagine if one of those rocks had hit an inhabited planet. The trauma would be massive enough that the Vilani would regard the very idea of near-c rocks as being utterly unthinkable forevermore...
kristof65 said:
No, Stephen is dead right. The rules say what they say - if you're interpreting that to mean "but they can also go anywhere else" then you really are adding an interpretation that is neither explicitly stated nor implied in the rules.
And your example is flawed too - it's not like that at all. It's actually the equivalent of saying that sailing ships can travel anywhere they like, but they must dock at ports or leave from ports. The difference is though that we know that's nonsense - we know that sailing ships can anchor anywhere they like as long as the water's shallow enough. However, jump drives are fictional - we can't make similar assumptions there, so we have to go by what is actually stated in the rules that defines the technology. So if it says "you only go from star system to star system" then that's what the technology (as explained there) allows you to do - heck, even as it is it's actually an interpretative stretch to say that brown dwarfs count as "star systems".
