Empty Jump Hex Solutions: comments critiques and rants

[EDG]

[noob question] So, empty hexes on the star map are actually empty (i.e. contain nothing but empty space) rather than being occupied by a star that lacks a useable system of planets? That would make it so that every star in a sub-sector had planetary bodies, which is perhaps a bit of a stretch.[/noob question]

I'm not sure if it's ever been made explicit anywhere that empty hexes are indeed completely empty (I don't have my books on hand right now to check). I can't recall offhand what CT says when you're rolling for system presence - whether a failed roll means that nothing is there at all, or just that there's no system that anybody is interested in enough to put on the map.

But one of CT's quirks is that by default if it is determined that a system is present in a hex, then it MUST contain planets (unless later on the rolls make it so that it's a multiple system that's ejected all the planets, or you get some weird combination of empty orbits filling up every available orbit). But you can't roll up a system that contains just the star(s) and no planets (not in book 3 anyway).

When it comes to astronomy and astrography, this is by no means the only thing that could be considered a "stretch" - for example, the proportion of habitable planets generated in Traveller is undoubtedly way higher than reality (current evidence indicates that it's pretty unlikely to get a habitable planet in the right orbit around the right type of star with the right kind of lifespan, and then you have to worry about jovians migrating inwards and disrupting the orbits of rocky planets too - put that all together and you get significantly reduced probabilities of habitable worlds).

 

[captainjack23]

If in doubt, post a quote from the original Book 2 Classic Traveller rules:

Once a starship moves to more than 100 planetary diameters from all worlds, it may activate its jump drive and move to another star system. Jump drives transfer ships from one star system to another in about one week per jump.

Well, without a page reference its hard to find. But, in the CT Big Black book edition of the rules, pg 49: interstellar travel, the quote now reads:

"Once a starship moves to a safe distance from a world, it may activate its jump drive.Jump drives are rated from 1 to 6:the number of parsecs which can be travelled in one week."

I can't find my LBB2 right now, so a direct comparison isn;t possible. But regardless, the above indicates nothing about an actual endpoint being in a star system.

I'll keep looking.

 

[Maedhros]

When it comes to astronomy and astrography, this is by no means the only thing that could be considered a "stretch" - for example, the proportion of habitable planets generated in Traveller is undoubtedly way higher than reality (current evidence indicates that it's pretty unlikely to get a habitable planet in the right orbit around the right type of star with the right kind of lifespan, and then you have to worry about jovians migrating inwards and disrupting the orbits of rocky planets too - put that all together and you get significantly reduced probabilities of habitable worlds).

I'm not so worried about "accuracy" - I just assume that by the time the Third Imperium rolled around a massive amount of terraforming had occurred, including perhaps some movement of planets within the system to more useable positions (etc.).

It's more of a practical question: Can a Jump-1 ship move through vast stretches of "empty" space by scavenging off of gas giants orbiting non-registered stars?

 

[rust]

It seems this thread is in the process of creating a new field of science or
theology, "RPG Exegesis" ... :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exegesis

 

[EDG]

I'm not so worried about "accuracy" - I just assume that by the time the Third Imperium rolled around a massive amount of terraforming had occurred, including perhaps some movement of planets within the system to more useable positions (etc.).

Doing that assumes that the technology level of the 3I is or has been much higher than it is declared to be. IIRC most terraforming shows up on the TL tables at TL 15+. If you're saying that everything has been pre-arranged to be in the right place though, then realism goes out of the window.

It's more of a practical question: Can a Jump-1 ship move through vast stretches of "empty" space by scavenging off of gas giants orbiting non-registered stars?

If it knows where they are, sure. But then if one assumes that the empty hexes are full of objects that can be easily located and jumped to and from, mains become irrelevant since every system is reachable by J1. The only difference between the drives then becomes how quickly it takes to reach a destination - does it take 3 weeks to cross a 3 hex gap using J1, or just one week using J3?

 

[captainjack23]

Okay, a quick search of the PDF version of the LBB (still cant find my hardcopy of the original)

From page 4 Interstellar travel:
Once a starship moves to a safe distance
from a world, it may activate its jump drive. Jump drives are rated from 1 to 6: the
number of parsecs which can be travelled in one week. [/quote]

This is the same as in the Big Black editions.


From p27 Combat under movement:

MOVEMENT
Ships move using their maneuver drives; use of the jump drive exits a ship into
interstellar space, out of the area of play.

Not particularly decisive, but a place to mention the endpoint being a planet.

From p39 Software definitions:

Jump is required to allow the ship to perform a jump through interstellar space.
The specific program for the jump distance required must be used. For example, a
jump-6 ship which is going to perform jump3 must use the jump3 program.

Same as above.

So, on the balance, it looks like the original quote was rewritten in later sources -and possibly the PDF is from a later print of the LBB2. So, on the balance, I think the original quote was likely changed because it was either misleading or ambiguous (as is illustrated above) or intentionally revised for continuity.

Either way, I don't think that the balance of what I've seen , (coupled with explicit early references in canon to EHJ) is definitive in showing star to star movement is required.

 

[EDG]

It's quite possible that the rules evolved over editions and that things changed, but I still don't think it precludes the idea of EHJs being impossible to do early in the setting, but being possible later on.

There's still nothing in the main CT rules (except for Imperium and GT:IW, where it explicitly says otherwise) that says that EHJs have always been possible. The lack of explicitness on that matter allows for the possibility of that idea.

 

[captainjack23]

EDG writes:

But then if one assumes that the empty hexes are full of objects that can be easily located and jumped to and from, mains become irrelevant since every system is reachable by J1. The only difference between the drives then becomes how quickly it takes to reach a destination - does it take 3 weeks to cross a 3 hex gap using J1, or just one week using J3?

YAY ! You've come around to my thinking on this point.

Exactly. And that solution ( jump requires a mass, any mass to operate) creates a very different scenario from what we see historically. So, back to the goal of this thread: to propose/discuss some aspect of the proccess of jump that produces the now-you-see-it, now-you-don't nature of Vilani (and early terran) travel patterns. Just Mass/Mass doesn't work, given that lots of mass exists between stars, or as has been demonstrated, can be moved there. And in any case, where are all those points now ?

 

[captainjack23]

It's quite possible that the rules evolved over editions and that things changed, but I still don't think it precludes the idea of EHJs being impossible to do early in the setting, but being possible later on.

There's still nothing in the main CT rules (except for Imperium and GT:IW, where it explicitly says otherwise) that says that EHJs have always been possible. The lack of explicitness on that matter allows for the possibility of that idea.

Sure, and as a rules discussion, this is valid, although many here support the idea that revisions should supplant original source. The balance of the evidence does suggest that EHJ issues have been considered, and revisons made to clarify that fact. Otherwise, why the changes ? MM is not exactly free and loose with system changes or clarifications that he doesn't support.

Besides, this level of rules lawyering is irrelevant to the overall discussion.

 

[EDG]

YAY ! You've come around to my thinking on this point.

Not quite . That's just an extreme of thinking about the consequences of having masses in every hex.

The contradiction in the setting exists right now - the fact that EHJs are known to be possible in the 1100s should be making everyone wonder why ships don't do that all the time. They don't even need to carry collapsible fuel tanks etc - all that needs to be done is to set up stations and calibration points in the empty hexes that have the fuel that ships will need, and they can jump to and from them and refuel there. If you can get the resources out there, and have people there to trade with, then what really is the practical difference between going to a space station in the middle of nowhere with a few hundred people on it, or to a desolate rockball with limited resources that orbits a red dwarf and has a few hundred people on it?

Evidently something is stopping people from doing EHJs all the time in the modern CT era, or they'd be doing it already.

Just Mass/Mass doesn't work, given that lots of mass exists between stars, or as has been demonstrated, can be moved there. And in any case, where are all those points now ?

Maybe the masses involved have to be greater than a certain limit - what if you can't jump to or from the vicinity of an object with a mass of less than around 50 Jupiter Masses - that would mean that only the most massive BDs (the 50-70 MJ ones) would be viable as jump targets. (and maybe jumping directly to and from small rocky planets orbiting stars isn't an issue here, since they're still close enough to a stellar-mass object to be viable jump targets).

 

[GypsyComet]

Money, conservative cultural effects, fear of "the unknown", and technical difficulty can all add up to why it is possible but not done much.

Posit: Jump calcs require a good navigational fix on both ends.

This can be done without a local gravity well/star/etc, but it takes longer and really calls for better astrogation software and sensors than most merchants are going to pay for. Doing this with default civilian electronics is *perceived* as riskier than the mortgage calls for by most people.

Posit: Empty space is frankly scary, even to those used to space travel. People LIKE being close to a star.

Posit: The First Imperium was even more of a commercial empire than the Third is.

As such, fleets are not "military" assets, but are part and parcel of the trade equations that run the Ziru Sirka. Risks are to be avoided; commerce is to be reinforced. Think of the end of THX-1138, and the Vilani staying out of empty hexes makes a bit more sense in this context.

Posit: Mass points are common, even in empty hexes, but sources of fuel are very rare off the established paths.

So now the ship has to be prepared with extra fuel as well. You aren't just jumping into the unknown, but into an unknown *desert*. This may be why the IW Terrans aren't jumping into the Black. They're at war, and can't afford to build ships that can double jump.

As noted offhandedly by someone a couple pages ago, drop tanks were not available during this period. With drop tanks having been introduced to the Spinward Marches nearly 3000 years *later*, we can assume that IW-era tech cannot solve some engineering issue that we 21st Century types have no idea exists...

 

[captainjack23]

Evidently something is stopping people from doing EHJs all the time in the modern CT era, or they'd be doing it already.

Well, actually, they are and can. The main limit is fuel. Way stations are one of those annoying issues, I agree. From a merchantile POV, multiple refuels over several hexes would probably be cost inefficient, but I could see great utility in having them to bridge gaps between mains or just extend them. On the other hand, J2 merchants can bridge them, and that kind of situation (jobs J1 traders can't do) is where they make their bread and butter, I've always felt.

There are two solutions to the modern situation I've always liked:
The first is a penalty to jumping into and out of an empty hex -say -2 per. A bigger computer could offset this (say cancel one minus per computer level above the normal requirement). This would be easily handleable by Military and exploration ships, and possibly prohibitive to merchants -either from the expense of the extra computing, or the added risk.

the second is that jump accuracy drops enormously (several orders of magnitude) when one isn;t jumping to a star. This would make rifters (double jump ships) feasable, as they carry their own fuel -but a supply point is more questionable....if you jump out and can't find the cache or station.......

Just Mass/Mass doesn't work, given that lots of mass exists between stars, or as has been demonstrated, can be moved there. And in any case, where are all those points now ?

Maybe the masses involved have to be greater than a certain limit - what if you can't jump to or from the vicinity of an object with a mass of less than around 50 Jupiter Masses - that would mean that only the most massive BDs (the 50-70 MJ ones) would be viable as jump targets. (and maybe jumping directly to and from small rocky planets orbiting stars isn't an issue here, since they're still close enough to a stellar-mass object to be viable jump targets).

One idea I found I had thought about in the other threads was the idea that a suitable mass has to be capable of supporting P-P fusion -that would rule out brown dwarfs and subjovians.

A different observation involves ignoring the pseudocanonical stellar designations for given starsytems. I simply note that the given density of local stars in a traveller map can be obtained by ignoring most M type stars in the real world (I think). The mass (or diameter) could be the important issue - below a certain size, the star doesn't effect jumpspace differently than empty space. This has the nice effect of limiting a class of stars that has a low probability of useful planets, and, if (as we know) diameter is an important variable, small high mass objects (neutron stars, remnants, etc) are also eliminated.

I don't have the info for this actual calculation, but could one exclude the top and bottom end of the stellar types to create a 1/3 to 1/2 distribution in real stars ? Say, assuming that O,B, A and M stars aren't particulalry useful for jump navigation , and that the traveller maps are just those F,G and K stars which are also most likely to be useful for habitation and useful jumping destinations ?

 

[captainjack23]

There are two solutions to the modern situation I've always liked:
The first is a penalty to jumping into and out of an empty hex -say -2 per. A bigger computer could offset this (say cancel one minus per computer level above the normal requirement). This would be easily handleable by Military and exploration ships, and possibly prohibitive to merchants -either from the expense of the extra computing, or the added risk.

the second is that jump accuracy drops enormously (several orders of magnitude) when one isn;t jumping to a star. This would make rifters (double jump ships) feasable, as they carry their own fuel -but a supply point is more questionable....if you jump out and can't find the cache or station.......

With regards to the main topic here, I note that the above two implementations above mesh nicely with Gypsy's post. I don't completely discount cultural issues - but cultural bias plus greater difficulty and danger I can imagine.

The computation issue would seem to be the best idea for a hard barrier to jump capacity, too. The Vilanii were tech 11 - the top limit for computing was pretty low - so any EHJ would be fraught with danger. And potential revenue loss....

 

[GamerDude]

Ok, let's look at the material being cited... Particularly the board game Imperium and GT: Interstellar Wars (GT:IW).

Imperium is a board game first, with the requisite "background" for the rules to make sense. The rules are there to make sense as a board game. Boardgames, by their nature, have more restrictive rules than say the same implementation as a miniatures game or an RPG. The basic background (along with other games) was the 'jumping off point' for the setting we now know as the "Official Traveller Universe" as well as Classic Traveller background itself. Originally listed in "cannon" newer official sources don't list it (including Marc Miller).

GT:IW is a licensed product, with conflicting opinions as to it's background being OTU or not. For those Marc has answered he says "no licensed material is cannon/OTU", and the opinions of high placed people at SJ Games is conflicted.

Toss into the mix the background/rules that state you can't be in jumpspace within 100 diameters of a singularity/gravity source/etc. You can't enter jumpspace that close to one, and if your course even accidentally brings you closer than that you will drop out at the 100d point. Nothing is said that navigating jumps must be from star to star.

Now, it makes a great deal of sense to jump from system to system, instead of trying to surrender cargo space to extra fuel to cross over "empty hexes", but if someone were to make that sacrifice, why couldn't they?

Why can't jumps be plotted based on some coordinate system? Stars move in different directions at different rates compared to each other, and you can't just "point and jump" to where you see the star in the current "sky". That's the light where it was however many years ago it left the star, strong gravity fields actually bend light (Einstein's theory that was proven decades ago during a solar eclipse which I don't have a reference to).

A coordinate system would not just make it possible to allow compensation for stellar drift and such, in fact it would almost be absolutely necessary to have such a system to make those allowances.

Overall, I'm finding it strange that this debate still rages here, and that a few have drawn very hard lines grabbing at whatever they can do 'be right'. Personally I'm thinking do what you want and in this case don't sweat the OTU, it's just not that important.

Happy New Year!

 

[GypsyComet]

Overall, I'm finding it strange that this debate still rages here, and that a few have drawn very hard lines grabbing at whatever they can do 'be right'. Personally I'm thinking do what you want and in this case don't sweat the OTU, it's just not that important.

In theory, the OTU is what we all have "in common". As you imply, a simple statement of MTU is enough to do what you like, but a lot of folks start from an OTU base.

And the fact of the matter is that the reasons behind allowing or forbidding this type of travel can cascade into other areas of the setting. That's why these things get such involved discussions.

 

[RandyT0001]

For those Marc has answered he says "no licensed material is cannon/OTU",

(emphasis mine)

So Marc has stated that rulebooks, supplements, adventures, etc. created by any and all licensed companies such as Steve Jackson Games, Avenger Enterprises, Quicklink Interactive, and Mongoose Publishing is not official nor canon material. In effect only Marc's writings and/or publishing through GDW, Imperium Games and/or FFE is canon and official.

I bet Matthew Sprange (and company) is thrilled to read that Mongoose isn't really (and I mean really as far as Marc is ultimately concerned) producing official Traveller material, i.e. to be considered canon.

 

[AKAramis]

Randy: Marc has consistently said that only GDW/IG/FFE materials are canon.

It's actually much simpler that way. It means that the various lines don't need to work together, only within the "Marc-Owned" canon and their own line.

Depending upon the ownership and approvals issues, MGT might be in that list, might not. Only Marc can say for certain, but for the time being, and in the context of MGT, canon is GDW, IG, FFE, and MGT. You write for MGT, you have to cope with MGT as if it were canon.

For GT it is GDW, IG, FFE, and SJG.

 

[DM]

bet Matthew Sprange (and company) is thrilled to read that Mongoose isn't really (and I mean really as far as Marc is ultimately concerned) producing official Traveller material, i.e. to be considered canon.

I'm sure if that is the case that Matt and co are fully aware. They don't slip up on thing slike this.

 

[Jeff Hopper]

It seems this thread is in the process of creating a new field of science or
theology, "RPG Exegesis" ... :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exegesis

I just keep wondering why this keeps cropping up as an important discussion. It has become the Traveller equivalent of a lolcat to me. Empty Hex is Empty. Fill it with whatever you, as Referee, feels makes sense to place there that would not be in a fully mapped hex.

 

[Ishmael]

I've always gone with the idea that
1. Jump was discovered only in zero-g presumably because the effect is easier to see/control/do outside of gravity wells.
2. The rules very heavily imply that jump becomes more difficult as you go deeper into a gravity well ( greater chance of misjump is you descend into a gravity well )
3. Later technology allows grav-tech to be used as repulsors and can actually cause a ship to misjump by projecting a gravity well towards a ship about to jump.

Therefore, emptyhex jumps are easier to accomplish because empty hexes are empty and have to sources of gravity. Entering jump and exiting jump is easier/ more accurate.

There is no technological reason it cannot be done, so any reason would have to be cultural or economic ( wouldn't any Bilani captain that does an emptyhex jump have to pay royalties to the company that holds the patent for emptyhex jumps?... wouldn't that company jealously guard its patent as it can give a huge advantage in trade to that company? ).

IMTU, I feel that gravity is detrimental to jump and thus I base jump-performance on mass and not volume. Massive ships use more fuel per jump and require more powerful drives than less massive ships of equal volume.... jumping with a hold full of depleted uranium uses more fuel than jumping with a hold full of loose feathers.