Empty Jump Hex Solutions: comments critiques and rants

[Gentleman John]

The weird thing about all this is that EHJs were only ever explicitly used in TNE (there they were known as "calibration points", where bases were set up in empty hexes to jump off from). AFAIK no other (post-IW) version of Traveller has ever bothered to mention any permanent stations in empty hexes, and it's strange because there are many places in Charted Space where it'd be much better to bridge a gap than to follow jumplinks between many more systems.

Doesn't one of the CT books mention something about the J5 route across the Great Rift including fuel caches along the way? While these may not necessarily be permanent bases in empty hexes (it is possible that they are fuel stations in systems that would otherwise be useless for fuelling purposes), the possibility is there.

 

[captainjack23]

The weird thing about all this is that EHJs were only ever explicitly used in TNE (there they were known as "calibration points", where bases were set up in empty hexes to jump off from). AFAIK no other (post-IW) version of Traveller has ever bothered to mention any permanent stations in empty hexes, and it's strange because there are many places in Charted Space where it'd be much better to bridge a gap than to follow jumplinks between many more systems.

Doesn't one of the CT books mention something about the J5 route across the Great Rift including fuel caches along the way? While these may not necessarily be permanent bases in empty hexes (it is possible that they are fuel stations in systems that would otherwise be useless for fuelling purposes), the possibility is there.

Yeah, a trans rift route is mentioned, but I'm not 100% sure it was via refueling points.
Depending on what your acceptable refenenses are, it may be in the Aslan module, or possibly the library supplements.

Thing is, and I hope this doesn't start a flame war, many of these recurring facts are ambiguous, and probably won't be resolved by authoritative sources (other than individual GMs ).

Is this a problem though? (My opinion, here) not so much. dangling continuity references and unresolved plot points are horrible problems in fiction, but an RPG setting seems to me to be another matter. If the setting was completely defined, and resolved, one would simply be acting out a script laid down by the author, the same way, every time.

I've come to feel that an RPG setting always represents a compromise between structure and uncertainty, to allow different gm's and play styles to fit in, and still retain some common sandbox for people to play in.

 

[captainjack23]

And so we come to such conundrums as empty hex jumps. Various sources that I like to use suggest that EHJs are completely possible in the current (1105) timeline -save for fuel problems. However, in the early parts of the timeline, it is waaaaaay less clear. Gurps interstellar wars specifically states that terrans could not do it, and that the Vilanii hadn't for quite some time. Howver, internal evidence in other CT works indicates that the vilanii have to have been able to cross J-2 gaps just to get where they got to before the hard date that they discovered Jump 2.

Why this always seemed iffy to me (and I'm the one who started this thread and others on the subject): The layout of the interstellar wars makes it clear that the vilanii never used any kind of EHJ. Terra was isolated from the empire by two chokepoints, which were the only way a J2 ship could make it by jumping star to star. If these didn;t exist, or empty hex jumps were possible, terra would have been easily directly attacked, rather than having a defense in depth.


So, to me, the issue is: what is it about an EHJ that allows the vilanii to expand into their known J1 empire, but not to attack terra. And conversely, why couldn't terra use empty hex jumps to attack the vilanii directly (fairly major systems are within 4 parsecs of terra if one ignores empty star to star routes.

The Vlanii may have stopped using them for cultural reasons, perhaps; but they were nothing if not archivalists. They had to have retained the info, even if it wasn;t in common use; and at several points, the war could have been decisively ended, and the empire saved by their use. So why not ? Possibly the terrans hadn;t discovered it for the first few, but they must have found out later in the war, just from loking at where the Vilanii went with J1. So, when facing utter destruction, why didn't they use Empty hex jumps to strike the vilanii ?

So whatever the solution is (and we argued this around and around, so look it up if interested) it has some truly important implications for gaming in that period; and some important, if not profound implications for even gaming in the classic period....rift travel and the settlement of sparse areas (like the outrim void) being more obvious examples.



This is a great example of my thesis that RPG settings benefit from some ambiguity; a seemingly trivial rules issue, for me, really has come to help define how I run my setting. And, I've certainly developed lots of backstory for myself which always helps me run a better game.

And, oh yes, this too: if it does seem a trivial and unimportant issue, then one can ignore it, and no harm done.

 

[GamerDude]

In GT: Interstellar Wars,

Use this as you see fit, but it's SJGames version of of Traveller history for that time period, not the Marc Miller version of the that time.

Please quit quoting material the copyright owner doesn't include in what's "official".

you may now say something very snarky, overbearing, and condescending. We're used to that from you.

 

[captainjack23]

...

Dude. Please Stop. I'd love to continue this discussion, and it isn't about source validity or old issues, please ?

 

[GypsyComet]

The Battle of Two Suns (referenced in CT Adventure 1: Kinunir) is so named because it takes place in open space between two systems.

The use of internal tanks in The Traveller Adventure (also CT) to hop through empty hexes has already been noted.

The GT:IW inability can be explained by Vilani conservative thinking and the lack of good navigation data on the Terran side.


This is, of course, Traveller, and I am becoming increasingly aware that NO ONE is playing the same game of Traveller as any other group. Every group that plays and every armchair admiral has their own set of house rules, blind spots, and (often unfounded) leaps of intuition/faith/etc. And they are all different. Every last one of them.

Added to this is the tendency to assume that owning a Traveller product means you know it like the back of your hand, and the tendency to believe at a religious level that editions of Traveller you don't own aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

These types of arguments regarding Traveller material are nearly as old as the public internet, and are the express reason those silly acronyms (OTU, MTU, YTU) were adopted well over a decade ago. Learn their meanings and adopt their use and the mindset that goes with them. Matt, Mongoose, and every other denizen of this board will be grateful.

This grumbly old veteran is already seeing the new and curious faces becoming fewer and fewer on this board, despite the good sales numbers we keep hearing about. If you don't think that the behavior of the frequent posters has anything to do with this, then you are probably part of the problem.

 

[AKAramis]

The GT:IW issue can most simply be resolved by remembering it isn't canon, and therefore is irrelevant to any issue of EHJ's in canon.

The issue originates with the restrictions on travel presented in Imperium and in Dark Nebula; both are warship games, and most warships are not built with double jump, especially since you can thus cram more weapons and troops into the ship. Heck, most commercial ships are not, either.

What wasn't available canonically was the drop-tank. Drop tanks make the double jump far easier (but also confound the what is jump fuel issue since canonical drop tanks can be used to fuel a jump and then be dropped without lowering performance, and so force JFuel use to be at the front-end of jump, not during).

Now, there is a canonical reference to a calibration point in AM Solomani; the Solomani did break out with 2J1... using a CP. It doesn't say they had to technologically, it simply says they did it that way. THey built a midway station between Sol and Barnard's.

Canon grew over time, and not always logically nor with complete information; adding in secondary sources like SJG, FASA, etc., merely clouds the issues with interpretations of interpretations.

 

[Golan2072]

Canon is only an issue in published OTU material. In a non-OTU setting (published or not) just make up your own rulings regarding empty-hex jumps, keep them consistent and run with them. In your own OTU game just pick up whatever version of empty-hex jumps you and your group agree with and use it. The only problem is for the few of us who actually publish commercial OTU material, and thus have to keep everything canonical in order not to invalidate the all the books the fans have bought in the past.

IMTU I allow empty-hex jumps as long as you have the fuel for both jumps and enough life-support material for the entire duration (usually not a problem for 2J1, might need an extra bit of supplies in your cargo hold for longer sequences). You'll probably have to spend some time (1d6 hours) in real-space between jumps to let the drive cool and run some cursory maintenance checks on it, though.

 

[qstor]

This is off topic to this thread but I like others on the boards have a large collection of Traveller material. I happen to like the GT material. Its been stated that GT is OTU canon up to 1116 where the timelines diverge. So I'd appreciate if we stop the *knocks* on various editions. Its like arguing over editions of D&D. Back to the thread...

Mike

 

[EDG]

The GT:IW issue can most simply be resolved by remembering it isn't canon, and therefore is irrelevant to any issue of EHJ's in canon.

GT:IW is canon for GT. Marc's camp have written very little on the subject, and nothing they have said so far explicitly refutes GT:IW's interpretation (and we have gone over this in previous EHJ threads). Given that Marc's camp hasn't said anything concrete about the subject officially, I'll take the source that does go into detail over it instead of a void of information anyday.

Personally, I couldn't care less if Marc Miller says it's canon or not - as golan2072 says, Marc's not holding a gun to anyone's head and saying "THOU SHALT ONLY USE CANON SOURCES THAT I APPROVE OF IN YOUR OWN GAMES". People are allowed to try to use any and all of the material written for Traveller in their own games in any way that they please and reconcile them however they want to.

Personally I think all the published sources are as valid as each other and I see no reason to sneer at the GT material just because other people are too short-sighted to acknowledge it. And in this case and IMTU they are easily reconcilable: one can say that EHJs weren't posssible in the past, and now they are - problem solved, nothing really changes. If other people want to stubbornly hold onto what some distant person who isn't playing with them says should or shouldn't be used in canon, then that's up to them - me, I don't like seeing other peoples' efforts go to waste.

 

[captainjack23]

Me, I've always felt canon "discussions" were one of the niche entertainments available with traveller; as is edition bashing. Neither, though are very interesting to me.

Frankly, all I'm interested in is if people have any thoughts on a simple issue:

if the Vilanii had EHJ capacity, why might it have been ignored during the IW period? I've never like the "they forgot it or were too hidebound and proud to use them". Villains who are stupid, or incompetent make for poor fiction (IMHO), and I'd rather not rely on that.

So, has anyone else any thoughts on this from that viewpoint ?

YES, I know it's a probably canon inconsistency, and yes, I'm aware that the simple solution is to ignore it, and yes, many people don't care or think theres an issue, or that it may or may not even be a canon issue. I have no axes to grind in those discussions.



[/i]

 

[EDG]

if the Vilanii had EHJ capacity, why might it have been ignored during the IW period? I've never like the "they forgot it or were too hidebound and proud to use them". Villains who are stupid, or incompetent make for poor fiction (IMHO), and I'd rather not rely on that.

You call it stupidity, I call it Vilani nature. It's part of what makes them alien (though to be honest, plenty of humans here on earth display the same tendencies).

 

[captainjack23]

if the Vilanii had EHJ capacity, why might it have been ignored during the IW period? I've never like the "they forgot it or were too hidebound and proud to use them". Villains who are stupid, or incompetent make for poor fiction (IMHO), and I'd rather not rely on that.

You call it stupidity, I call it Vilani nature. It's part of what makes them alien (though to be honest, plenty of humans here on earth display the same tendencies).

I know. Just too many otherwise good stories hinge on the: "and then the overwhelming opponent makes a really really stupid mistake or policy decision" and lose to the good guys, who really just were there at the right time. Its just so pat and lazy. So, yes, they didn't because they were too hidebound is a reasonable answer. but, is there another ?

 

[EDG]

So, yes, they didn't because they were too hidebound is a reasonable answer. but, is there another ?

Technological limitations? Fear of jumping into the unknown?

 

[rust]

If I had to come up with an explanation for the Vilani's reluctance to jump
into empty hexes, I would most probably choose a a kind of "Hindenburg
Desaster":
An entire fleet, or a significant part of it, with several VIPs on board, lost
during a jump into an empty hex that went horribly wrong.

Such an event could have caused a decision to remove jumps into empty
hexes from the list of allowed procedures and could have established a
psychological barrier preventing their use from then on.

And once jumps into empty hexes have been out of use for quite some
time and no living crew ever jumped into an empty hex, and the idea of
such a jump has been firmly connected with a desaster, only a very un-
usual Vilani would think of trying a jump into an empty hex, I think.

 

[Infojunky]

(MegaTraveller's big change to 5xDrive Size for jump fuel reduced longer ranges drastically, resulting in my being able to design a ship with 3j3!)

I was never sure why they did that, actually. Seemed like tinkering for the sake of.

Power plant fuel requirements. Originally in MT power plants need to run at full output no matter what the load couple that with a ungodly huge fuel requirement to keep that plant going, something had to give. Thus the jump fuel requirement.

It took three or four years for some one to come up with the idea that you didn't have to power everything at once fix.

MT's biggest problem is that the extrapolated power/fuel requirements from Striker without a understanding of the power levels/densities they were talking about. But that is another thread bitch.

Don't get me started on the TL15 centric universe the postulated.

 

[GypsyComet]

(MegaTraveller's big change to 5xDrive Size for jump fuel reduced longer ranges drastically, resulting in my being able to design a ship with 3j3!)

I was never sure why they did that, actually. Seemed like tinkering for the sake of.

Power plant fuel requirements. Originally in MT power plants need to run at full output no matter what the load couple that with a ungodly huge fuel requirement to keep that plant going, something had to give. Thus the jump fuel requirement.

It took three or four years for some one to come up with the idea that you didn't have to power everything at once fix.

MT's biggest problem is that the extrapolated power/fuel requirements from Striker without a understanding of the power levels/densities they were talking about. But that is another thread bitch.

TNE and T4 ratcheted the "real world equivalent" MW numbers down by two orders of magnitude for exactly this reason. They are, of course, the two editions people seem to like least...

MT's power mapping from Striker caused powerplants in starships to become huge fuel hogs. While MT's design process recommended saving powerplant size for near the end, it was possible in MT to determine a ship's needs by adding about 10% to the (easily determined) drive and weapon needs, both of which were typically determined very early. In a small ship, a solitary triple laser turret could double or triple the energy budget of the entire ship and send the fuel requirements ballooning out of control. Until the "partial power" solution became common knowledge, the fuel for powerplants could very easily dominate a design. In a game where jump fuel and cargo space are supposed to do that, something had to give, and jump fuel drew the short straw.

When added to the TL progression of power plant scale efficiency (also inherited from Striker), a further problem arose. Suddenly, you *had* to build at TL15 to be able to meet the design specs of the CT standard designs, all of which were *supposedly* TL12 or lower in origin. No more tramp freighters in MT. If you weren't flying a State-of-the-Art ship, you were already a failure.

Now stack the errata for which MT is justly infamous onto this, and you can see why the gearheads embraced TNE's "Fire Fusion & Steel" when it came out, even as they were ignoring or castigating the rest of TNE.

 

[Sturn]

If I had to come up with an explanation for the Vilani's reluctance to jump into empty hexes, I would most probably choose a a kind of "Hindenburg Desaster"........An entire fleet...lost during a jump into an empty hex that went horribly wrong.

Such an event could have caused a decision to remove jumps into empty
hexes from the list of allowed procedures and could have established a
psychological barrier preventing their use from then on.

And once jumps into empty hexes have been out of use for quite some.........only a very un-usual Vilani would think of trying a jump into an empty hex, I think.

This is nice Rust. Combine this with a game rule making jumps into empty (no stellar masses) hexes more difficult works fine for me. This at least makes much more sense then the "they didn't do it for cultural reasons" which made no sense whatsoever. Can I use this?

I've been reading through Gurps Interstellar Wars while gathering information for a near Melieu0 campaign set near Terra. Jump range issues have come up.

Gurps history has Jump-1 Terrans using a brown star station to bridge the J-2 gap to Barnard. A.i., they found a brown star between, used "vast" resources to set up a fueling point there. It inferred that a stellar mass was still needed (the brown star) to jump to, not just empty space. Perhaps EDG can answer how common or hard to find brown stars are? From what I have heard brown stars are so common they could be quite common in empty hexes? Are they hard to detect for some reason?

Aslan cross the "Jump-5" corridor early in their history, when they are perhaps TL-11 or even lower. They are at J-2 tech, at a stretch they are at J-3. Something has to explain how they could cross 5 parsecs at a low technology. Refueling stations seems a must, with or without a required stellar mass such as the Gurps brown stars.

For myself I would make empty space jumps completely possible, but more difficult (misjumps much more common) combined with fuel issues making it a rare attempt unless there is a very good reason for it. Something has to explain that the Rift is not crossed and instead ships travel all of the way through Corridor on the way to the Spinward Marches. The 3rd Imp could have refueling stations, perhaps mothballed, for such attempts in emergencies only since they put the ship crews in danger.

 

[GypsyComet]

Perhaps EDG can answer how common or hard to find brown stars are? From what I have heard brown stars are so common they could be quite common in empty hexes? Are they hard to detect for some reason?

I think he already has answered that question at least once...

Are they hard to detect? Yes. Why? Well, for starters they don't shed all that much light or heat, so our usual method for locating stellar objects doesn't work on them. They are also typically far from other stars and small, so they are not going to be readily detectable by their effects on other objects, either gravity effects or light.

Last I checked we had not actually found *any* Brown Dwarf stars, but EDG would know for certain.

 

[Sturn]

Well, for starters they don't shed all that much light or heat, so our usual method for locating stellar objects doesn't work on them.

I have no astrology knowledge whatsoever, but I thought gravity was also commonly used to detect stellar objects. From what I understand (that could be completely wrong) we can detect unseen black holes by gravity, planets in nearby systems by gravity, etc. A.i. gravitational affect on other objects we can see.