Empires of the Hyborian age What happened to it???

[PrinceYyrkoon]

It is an absolute fact, regardless of the current state of D20, that people are moving away from complex rpgs. I dont say that D20 is particularly complex, and I dont hate it, but it is convoluted and isnt great (obviously) for beginners.

Look at the paper rpg products available, Savage Worlds, WoD, etc., and complexity in the game system at least, isnt there. D20 seems like an annomaly in a rules-lite era.

I actually think that RQ is pretty old-fashioned really, slightly too much mechanic for these days. A BRP approach, with no hit locations, and less than 20 skills, I think, is the way to go with a swords & sorcery game like Conan.

Ive tried D20 Conan, I dont hate it, but I do hope that Mongoose will see that its time for a change.

 

[flatscan]

Ive tried D20 Conan, I dont hate it, but I do hope that Mongoose will see that its time for a change.

It is? Determined by what exactly?

 

[Scorpion13]

It is an absolute fact, regardless of the current state of D20, that people are moving away from complex rpgs. I dont say that D20 is particularly complex, and I dont hate it, but it is convoluted and isnt great (obviously) for beginners.

Look at the paper rpg products available, Savage Worlds, WoD, etc., and complexity in the game system at least, isnt there. D20 seems like an annomaly in a rules-lite era.

I actually think that RQ is pretty old-fashioned really, slightly too much mechanic for these days. A BRP approach, with no hit locations, and less than 20 skills, I think, is the way to go with a swords & sorcery game like Conan.

Ive tried D20 Conan, I dont hate it, but I do hope that Mongoose will see that its time for a change.

Who says its time for a change? You? People who want a Runequest RPG think its time for a change. That doesnt necessarily make it so.

And Im curious how you know people are moving away from rules-heavy rpgs. Got some statistics to back that up?

 

[rabindranath72]

It's not just RQ fans that would gladly see a different Conan game, and that a change would be nice
Obviously, neither the fact that you want Conan to stay d20 means that it will stay so.

 

[Scorpion13]

It would be the height of hypocrisy for me to say that I want my system supported, and that some one else should not have theirs. I have no problem with dual statted books aside from the fact that they almost invariably suck since one system always gets the shaft. Chaosium, Im looking at you...

If Mongoose put out some books with d20 stats and some with Runequest, Id have no problem. Why shouldnt everyone have a good time? And online PDF sales means you would necessarily have to just print only one kind of system with a game, right? If Im out of line here, perhaps someone in charge around here can set me straight on this, but I dont see such a big problem.

 

[Hervé]

Scorpion 13 wrote:

And Im curious how you know people are moving away from rules-heavy rpgs. Got some statistics to back that up?

For instance, I've been seliing RPGs for the last 20 years and I can confirm: rules-heavy rpgs are out of fashion...

 

[Scorpion13]

Scorpion 13 wrote:

And Im curious how you know people are moving away from rules-heavy rpgs. Got some statistics to back that up?

For instance, I've been seliing RPGs for the last 20 years and I can confirm: rules-heavy rpgs are out of fashion...

Ok then.

Well but, how is 4e doing well then? I know its not the monstrosity that 3e is (and love it though I do, mother of GOD the numbers....), but its not exactly what you'd call rules lite.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

It is an absolute fact, regardless of the current state of D20, that people are moving away from complex rpgs. I dont say that D20 is particularly complex, and I dont hate it, but it is convoluted and isnt great (obviously) for beginners.

Look at the paper rpg products available, Savage Worlds, WoD, etc., and complexity in the game system at least, isnt there. D20 seems like an annomaly in a rules-lite era.

I actually think that RQ is pretty old-fashioned really, slightly too much mechanic for these days. A BRP approach, with no hit locations, and less than 20 skills, I think, is the way to go with a swords & sorcery game like Conan.

Ive tried D20 Conan, I dont hate it, but I do hope that Mongoose will see that its time for a change.

Who says its time for a change? You? People who want a Runequest RPG think its time for a change. That doesnt necessarily make it so.

And Im curious how you know people are moving away from rules-heavy rpgs. Got some statistics to back that up?

Well, of course its me that says its time for a change, it was me who posted it. I would probably quite happily keep on buying the D20 Conan as long as Mongoose publish it. Thing is, I think those customers wandering away from it would sound a death knell for the system. You cant survive on dwindling customers. And thats exactly what Mr Sprange has pretty much said.

Any kind of 'evidence' for a claim that rpgs are becoming rules-lite games is going to be neccessarily anecdotal, I suppose. I would say that the best evidence for this however, would be the paper and pen rpgs that are currently on the market. Savage Worlds is certainly the flavour of the month.

You can say, 'Its not true! I wont accept it!'. but, ask any retailer, and I think you would find the answer interesting. I have no vested interest one way or the other really. Ive role played for nigh on 30 years, Ive played Chivalry & Sorcery for chrissakes, as I say, I will keep buying, even if the system Conan uses remains a big old fashioned clunky beast. Even big old clunky beasts are worthwhile, if not too popular anymore.

As I say, I think even RQ suffers from being a bit clunky these days.

 

[Hervé]

I can tell only for the french market, but the fourth edition is selling only so so...

In the meantime, there's still room for rule monsters, as Anima has been quite popular in France, for one. But I tend to think it was more because of the FF-like setting than for the rules themselves.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Ive tried D20 Conan, I dont hate it, but I do hope that Mongoose will see that its time for a change.

It is? Determined by what exactly?

What do you think should happen? Nothing? Keep it as is? Release supplements that gradually sell less and less? You favour a slow death, I think. I would favour Conan becoming more in step with todays (small and increasingly specialist) market. Rather than sticking to rules that are a variant of a defunct convoluted game.

 

[Azgulor]

It is an absolute fact, regardless of the current state of D20, that people are moving away from complex rpgs. I dont say that D20 is particularly complex, and I dont hate it, but it is convoluted and isnt great (obviously) for beginners.

It is far from a demonstrable, let alone absolute fact, that people are "moving away from complex rpgs". Savage Worlds is a favorite on RPG forum boards - but does that translate to substantial sales? Is it a replacement system or another game to play?

My read - and I could be completely off-base, system-light games are easier to produce and cheaper to publish. So for a small publisher, they're more economically viable. They're better pick-up-and-play games, which is part of their draw, but I think most adopt them as a 2nd go-to game. Of the Savage World advocates' postings I've read, I don't get the sense they're dumping/selling their "complex" RPGs.

However, to suggest that they are the benchmark for RPG direction for the next 10 years, you've got no evidence to support that. It COULD be the case, but since RPG companies typically don't disclose sales figures, your "absolute fact" is in reality, a SWAG. Regardless of whether you're a fan of 4e or not (I'm not), D&D is the 800lb gorilla of the industry. While you can argue whether or not you believe 4e is more accessible than 3e was for new gamers, 4e ain't rules-light.

 

[flatscan]

What do you think should happen? Nothing? Keep it as is? Release supplements that gradually sell less and less? You favour a slow death, I think. I would favour Conan becoming more in step with todays (small and increasingly specialist) market. Rather than sticking to rules that are a variant of a defunct convoluted game.

Yeah, because last we heard Conan was still selling well.

Must be a slow death. :roll:

 

[Azgulor]

Well, of course its me that says its time for a change, it was me who posted it. I would probably quite happily keep on buying the D20 Conan as long as Mongoose publish it. Thing is, I think those customers wandering away from it would sound a death knell for the system. You cant survive on dwindling customers. And thats exactly what Mr Sprange has pretty much said.

Actually, what Mr. Sprange said was d20 was dead from a publishing perspective. He did not say Conan OGL was dead or dying. Things are subject to change, of course, but prior "State of the Mongoose" updates indicated that Conan sales were strong - and I believe he used the term "evergreen" status. If that's changed, then obviously there is a more compelling business rationale for changing systems than if sales are good.

The fundamental problem I keep encountering here, is that people in favor of changing systems keep trying to equate Conan OGL to D&D3.x. They are separate RPGs. Just like Mutants & Masterminds, True 20, and Pathfinder. I get it. People who don't like d20-based games probably aren't going to like Conan. But there still seem to be a large # of people out there that like Conan OGL, like or don't mind d20 games, and will <gasp> continue to purchase Conan OGL products.

As I've said before, Mongoose is a business. If sales dictate a system change, I'll wish them well even though they'll lose me as a customer. If sales are great/good/consistent, I see little rationale for a system change. As much as any forum poster might wish it otherwise, myself included, we're a small portion of the larger customer base. Just because we loudly voice our opinion, it doesn't add any fact to the matter -- only Mongoose's sales numbers, business plans, and bottom line are going to do that.

I've got zero problem with opinions different from mine. I take opinions posturing as facts with HUGE grains of salt, however. YMMV.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

It is an absolute fact, regardless of the current state of D20, that people are moving away from complex rpgs. I dont say that D20 is particularly complex, and I dont hate it, but it is convoluted and isnt great (obviously) for beginners.

It is far from a demonstrable, let alone absolute fact, that people are "moving away from complex rpgs". Savage Worlds is a favorite on RPG forum boards - but does that translate to substantial sales? Is it a replacement system or another game to play?

My read - and I could be completely off-base, system-light games are easier to produce and cheaper to publish. So for a small publisher, they're more economically viable. They're better pick-up-and-play games, which is part of their draw, but I think most adopt them as a 2nd go-to game. Of the Savage World advocates' postings I've read, I don't get the sense they're dumping/selling their "complex" RPGs.

However, to suggest that they are the benchmark for RPG direction for the next 10 years, you've got no evidence to support that. It COULD be the case, but since RPG companies typically don't disclose sales figures, your "absolute fact" is in reality, a SWAG. Regardless of whether you're a fan of 4e or not (I'm not), D&D is the 800lb gorilla of the industry. While you can argue whether or not you believe 4e is more accessible than 3e was for new gamers, 4e ain't rules-light.

Hmm. absolute proof is tricky, however, apart from my statement, Andre has just said that he sells rpgs, has been doing so for 20 years, and he says that rules-heavy rpgs are going out of fashion, i.e., people are spending less money/time on them. Do you accept his claim? I do.

You may not like this turn of events, I don't mind if the market goes for rules-heavy or rules-lite, I'll play anything, but, by all accounts, it is the case that current IN PRINT rpgs are, generally, rules-lite. If it turns out that in 12 months there are 3 new rpgs that are rules-heavy successes, then, of course, the opposite would be true. (I'd be willing to bet rules-heavy rpgs are a thing of the past though).

As for 4th edition, I dont know if it is selling, its certainly less crunchy than 3.5 or 3rd, and thats a fact. D&D has always existed outside of rpg trends, its the exception that proves the rule.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

What do you think should happen? Nothing? Keep it as is? Release supplements that gradually sell less and less? You favour a slow death, I think. I would favour Conan becoming more in step with todays (small and increasingly specialist) market. Rather than sticking to rules that are a variant of a defunct convoluted game.

Yeah, because last we heard Conan was still selling well.

Must be a slow death. :roll:

Still selling well? I would be surprised if the Warriors Companion sold more copies than Across Thunder River.

Man, I'd be interested to see your business plan for the Conan rpg!

 

[flatscan]

Man, I'd be interested to see your business plan for the Conan rpg!

It'd be remarkably similar to what Mongoose has done already. Again, 40 products out for OGL Conan. That's an excellent catalogue for any RPG. They wouldn't keep publishing the books if they didn't sell. But hey, keep on dreaming that some other system will be used. If it happens, congrats. You'll get to play with whatever other Euros want it. I have a feeling in the states if Conan goes MRQ it'll go the way of the dodo shortly after.

 

[Demetrio]

I'm not sure a switch to RQ or similar percentile system would be fatal in the US. It might be. But really Mongoose is chasing a niche market. A niche market within a niche market...

Mongoose has three separate sorts of customers at the moment.

Those who have Conan d20 already and who do not wish to see the system change.

Those (who may or may not have Conan d20 already) who want a percentile based version instead.

Those (who or may not have Conan d20 already) who don't care if it changes or want a different system entirely. (These last can be disregarded).

Essentially it depends whether they think enough people will buy percentile Conan to offset the folk who abandon the game if it changes systems. New customers will buy the game because of the setting and are probably just as likely to go for it under d20 rules as %. There are huge numbers of people who have played d20 who would be attracted by d20 Conan, just as there are those potential customers who would like a % version.

The 'third way' is to run both d20 and % versions. But that either increases the cost of the supplements if they are dual-statted(undesireable) or means producing two different versions of each book (probably pushing costs also), but competing systems by a single publisher for the same game doesn't seem a sensible strategy.

 

[flatscan]

I'm not sure a switch to RQ or similar percentile system would be fatal in the US. It might be. But really Mongoose is chasing a niche market. A niche market within a niche market...

The big percentile around here is BRP and while the rpg.net boards laud it as the way the truth and the light, it's another one of those game books I see that just sits there without many people playing it. It's a novelty in other words, at least in my neck of the woods.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Man, I'd be interested to see your business plan for the Conan rpg!

It'd be remarkably similar to what Mongoose has done already. Again, 40 products out for OGL Conan. That's an excellent catalogue for any RPG. They wouldn't keep publishing the books if they didn't sell. But hey, keep on dreaming that some other system will be used. If it happens, congrats. You'll get to play with whatever other Euros want it. I have a feeling in the states if Conan goes MRQ it'll go the way of the dodo shortly after.

Well, were both getting a little insulting, (over a game system we both use, amazingly).

My position is this;

If Mongoose keep on publishing Conan as is, I'll keep buying it. It would be great to get to see the work thats already been done in converting stuff to RQ, as that is my usual system (BRP in fact, but its a short step from MRQ to there). I have no axe to grind over D20, OGL, whatever you want to call it. I dont dream of a time when everything will be Runequest coloured. RQ has its irritations too.

I'm fairly certain, however, that D20 wont be there forever behind the Conan rpg. If it is, Im pretty sure the sales will eventually dwindle, if not disappear entirely.

 

[flatscan]

I'm fairly certain, however, that D20 wont be there forever behind the Conan rpg. If it is, Im pretty sure the sales will eventually dwindle, if not disappear entirely.

And this is what I don't get. Why would that be the case? Why would it be better for Conan to be placed on the shoulders of a game system that has come and gone and always taken 4th or 5th fiddle to D&D? If the boards are any indication the current customer base is loyal to the current product. That's money in the bank for Mongoose.