Empires of the Hyborian age What happened to it???

[Azgulor]

Hmm. absolute proof is tricky, however, apart from my statement, Andre has just said that he sells rpgs, has been doing so for 20 years, and he says that rules-heavy rpgs are going out of fashion, i.e., people are spending less money/time on them. Do you accept his claim? I do.

You may not like this turn of events, I don't mind if the market goes for rules-heavy or rules-lite, I'll play anything, but, by all accounts, it is the case that current IN PRINT rpgs are, generally, rules-lite. If it turns out that in 12 months there are 3 new rpgs that are rules-heavy successes, then, of course, the opposite would be true. (I'd be willing to bet rules-heavy rpgs are a thing of the past though).

As for 4th edition, I dont know if it is selling, its certainly less crunchy than 3.5 or 3rd, and thats a fact. D&D has always existed outside of rpg trends, its the exception that proves the rule.

Okaaaay..... just so I'm clear.

Your "absolute fact" is based upon:

1. Anecdotal evidence from one individual that rules-light RPGs are trumping crunchy RPGs. Clearly, this is indicative that it's a global phenomenon. Note: While I don't doubt that what you describe has been Andre's experience, lacking additional evidence I'm inclined to think it's perhaps a local trend and not an axiom of universal truth.

2. You're not aware of how 4e is selling.

3. D&D as the market leading RPG really isn't germane to the discussion because it's the exception that proves the rule. I guess industry leaders don't really exert any influence on their industry. Add industry leader to the list of oxymorons.

3a. BUT!!! 4e (in your estimation, not mine) is "less crunchy" than 3e. This of course proves the fact that rules-light is all the rage. Not that 4e is relevant to the direction of the RPG industry, no siree bob! [Psst. BTW, they're releasing sneak peeks on PH3. So rules light, it needs 3 PHBs!!]

I don't know why I never saw it before! Ok, I'm a believer! :roll:

For the record, it's not a matter of liking or not liking the "turn of events" you've described. While my tastes lean towards the crunchier (Tastes great!!) vs. the rules-light (Less filling!!) end of the RPG spectrum, the industry is the industry. If it goes in the direction I like, I'll follow. If not, I (and my money) won't. I just think the case you are attempting to make is weak in the extreme.

 

[Demetrio]

and always taken 4th or 5th fiddle to D&D?

To be fair, in the 80s it was second fiddle. And I enjoyed it tremendously. I think because it had the Gloranthan setting which was something very different, and was essentially 'classless' (the picture of the young lady on the rulebook had nothing to do with it I'm sure). Because in them days, as you know, D&D didn't really allow much character variety.

 

[Scorpion13]

Seriously, would It be out of line to maybe have a few different versions of the books ot be done? Same fluff, different stats and put it out in pdf? I mean, any online RPG PDF store worth its salt does print on demand nowadays, so would it be totally out of line? Would that be prohibitively expensive or what?

Like I said, Im not hypocritical enough to deny someone else their favorite game stuff for my own.

 

[Azgulor]

Just to be clear - people's opinions are their opinions and that's cool. Yes, my sarcasm filter failed in my last post, but that was directed against the argument being made - not the person posting, MRQ, percentile systems, or anything else.

Mongoose will do what's best for them as a company and its employees. Logically, that would indicate Conan will utilize the system that best meets sales targets. While MY hope is that it stays OGL, it's their call to make. Mongoose hasn't let me down thus far and I don't have any reason to expect that they will in the future.

So bottom line, no hard feelings to anyone. Here's hoping we all make our Will Saves in the future. :lol: Have a round of ale, adventure, and wenches while you're at it. I'm off to work on campaign stuff.

 

[flatscan]

To be fair, in the 80s it was second fiddle.

It was? So it had more market share than Call of Cthulhu??? :shock:

I find that very difficult to believe as games like Call of Cthulhu and Shadowrun stood the test of time. While RuneQuest, like I said, came and went. And the revival that Mongoose has done seems to be a tiny splash in a very, very big, and diverse bucket. But even if it was 2nd fiddle in the 80s, that was then. Now, like I said, the only people I know that actually play the game are on message boards. And even most of them simply say they HAVE played the game, and rare is the person I meet who is currently playing it.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I'm fairly certain, however, that D20 wont be there forever behind the Conan rpg. If it is, Im pretty sure the sales will eventually dwindle, if not disappear entirely.

And this is what I don't get. Why would that be the case? Why would it be better for Conan to be placed on the shoulders of a game system that has come and gone and always taken 4th or 5th fiddle to D&D? If the boards are any indication the current customer base is loyal to the current product. That's money in the bank for Mongoose.

Yes, I appreciate the appeal D20 or D&D or AD&D or OGL has. Ive said before, a 20 sided die is pretty much the same as a % die as a mechanic when you look at it. And I know, even the guys that love the D20 system, have some issues with it, theres no such thing as a perfect system, is there?

Why change then? As I say, I dont mind if it does or doesnt, I would ask that, at least, the RQ stats are available as a free download, I would appreciate that very much, becaue I would then be able to play the Conan rpg using my own 'house rules' system, based upon brp and MRQ, thats all.

The other point I made, in passing, really, was that I had noticed a sea change in the rpg community towards lighter rules systems. You may not agree, but that is my experience, and its not all based upon anecdotal evidence either. The rpg systems that are enjoying healthy sales are Savage Worlds, Solomon Kane, World of Darkness, Vampire, Werewolf, Mage and the other WoD supplements less so. ALL rules light. Old rlues heavy systems have their audience, Im not saying they dont, GURPS, for instance, Rifts, whatever. They are fairly old. New systems, engines, if you want to call them that, TEND towards being streamlined, fast play, this is seen as a good thing. Old grognards are made fun of when they struggle through tortuous, hardly-sensible volumes of rulings. Fast play is seen as a good thing. I dont know why we are arguing about that particularly. Modern rpgs are rules-lite. FACT.

D20, as we have been told by Matt, doesnt really exist anymore. And, by extention, call it D20, or OGL, is a part of that boom, now over. Mongoose must move with the times, we may not like it, but its neccessary.

No one is saying you cant keep playing your own campaigns though, man. And the guys at Mongoose have stated that people wont be left high and dry, but I think the transition is coming. It may even just be a rules-lite version of the OGL. One thing is certain, it wont be a hugely complex outmoded behemoth of a ruleset coming.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Just to be clear - people's opinions are their opinions and that's cool. Yes, my sarcasm filter failed in my last post, but that was directed against the argument being made - not the person posting, MRQ, percentile systems, or anything else.

Mongoose will do what's best for them as a company and its employees. Logically, that would indicate Conan will utilize the system that best meets sales targets. While MY hope is that it stays OGL, it's their call to make. Mongoose hasn't let me down thus far and I don't have any reason to expect that they will in the future.

So bottom line, no hard feelings to anyone. Here's hoping we all make our Will Saves in the future. :lol: Have a round of ale, adventure, and wenches while you're at it. I'm off to work on campaign stuff.

Appreciated Azgulor. Were all just guys into rpgs, not hardline this or that players, were just talking, sometimes it gets a bit heated, but its all fine.

 

[flatscan]

Yes, I appreciate the appeal D20 or D&D or AD&D or OGL has. Ive said before, a 20 sided die is pretty much the same as a % die as a mechanic when you look at it. And I know, even the guys that love the D20 system, have some issues with it, theres no such thing as a perfect system, is there?

I've got 0 issues with OGL Conan. The only house rule I've made concern Fate Points. Other than that it's straight up RAW and it is some of the best gaming I've done in my life.

Modern rpgs are rules-lite. FACT.

Tell that to Steve Long over at Hero games, or Jolly Blackburn at Kenzer and Co. who are both coming out with specifically NOT rules lite games this year. You cite Steve Jackson with GURPS and that game is not especially rules lite. I wouldn't call Exalted rules lite either. They have social "combat" for Chris' sake. You need 2 books minimum to play in any WoD game. Doesn't strike me as particularly rules lite. I will concede that there's definitely a market for rules lite games. I won't concede that every company is jumping on board.

D20, as we have been told by Matt, doesnt really exist anymore. And, by extention, call it D20, or OGL, is a part of that boom, now over. Mongoose must move with the times, we may not like it, but its neccessary.

Well, d20 is going strong. WotC isn't slowing down any with 4e D&D and that is specifically d20. They made a new logo for it and everything. :wink:
As to OGL, yeah, it's definitely dwindling. But as Matt said, Conan has transcended that. One of the last ones standing. But it makes no sense to abandon it because of this for a system that's even older and one that's not especially popular, or at least less popular than it was back in the day.

No one is saying you cant keep playing your own campaigns though, man. And the guys at Mongoose have stated that people wont be left high and dry, but I think the transition is coming. It may even just be a rules-lite version of the OGL. One thing is certain, it wont be a hugely complex outmoded behemoth of a ruleset coming.

Oh, I'm aware that my game will go on despite whatever decision Mongoose makes with this. Switching to RQ seems to be counter to what you're stating though. An old, out-dated, rules set RQ is. MUCH more so than OGL in the greater scheme of things.

 

[Demetrio]

Runequest was out well before CoC, which I also really liked (although its combat system stank). I suspect CoC ended up outselling it because RQ kind of imploded for some reason. But the 'Big Three' when I started were Traveller, RQ and D&D. With D&D obviously dwarfing the other two.

I think folk might use MRQ as shorthand for 'BRP variant'. Maybe.

 

[flatscan]

Runequest was out well before CoC, which I also really liked (although its combat system stank). I suspect CoC ended up outselling it because RQ kind of imploded for some reason. But the 'Big Three' when I started were Traveller, RQ and D&D. With D&D obviously dwarfing the other two.

I think folk might use MRQ as shorthand for 'BRP variant'. Maybe.

I won't argue that RuneQuest was out before CoC. The facts are it was. I will argue that it had more market share "in the 80s" than CoC because there isn't much evidence that it did. Not much evidence it had more market share in the 80s than Traveller either. I stand by my statement that RQ played fourth or fifth fiddle to D&D "in the 80s".

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Yes, I appreciate the appeal D20 or D&D or AD&D or OGL has. Ive said before, a 20 sided die is pretty much the same as a % die as a mechanic when you look at it. And I know, even the guys that love the D20 system, have some issues with it, theres no such thing as a perfect system, is there?

I've got 0 issues with OGL Conan. The only house rule I've made concern Fate Points. Other than that it's straight up RAW and it is some of the best gaming I've done in my life.

Modern rpgs are rules-lite. FACT.

Tell that to Steve Long over at Hero games, or Jolly Blackburn at Kenzer and Co. who are both coming out with specifically NOT rules lite games this year. You cite Steve Jackson with GURPS and that game is not especially rules lite. I wouldn't call Exalted rules lite either. They have social "combat" for Chris' sake. You need 2 books minimum to play in any WoD game. Doesn't strike me as particularly rules lite. I will concede that there's definitely a market for rules lite games. I won't concede that every company is jumping on board.

D20, as we have been told by Matt, doesnt really exist anymore. And, by extention, call it D20, or OGL, is a part of that boom, now over. Mongoose must move with the times, we may not like it, but its neccessary.

Well, d20 is going strong. WotC isn't slowing down any with 4e D&D and that is specifically d20. They made a new logo for it and everything. :wink:
As to OGL, yeah, it's definitely dwindling. But as Matt said, Conan has transcended that. One of the last ones standing. But it makes no sense to abandon it because of this for a system that's even older and one that's not especially popular, or at least less popular than it was back in the day.

No one is saying you cant keep playing your own campaigns though, man. And the guys at Mongoose have stated that people wont be left high and dry, but I think the transition is coming. It may even just be a rules-lite version of the OGL. One thing is certain, it wont be a hugely complex outmoded behemoth of a ruleset coming.

Oh, I'm aware that my game will go on despite whatever decision Mongoose makes with this. Switching to MRQ seems to be counter to what you're stating though. An old, out-dated, rules set MRQ is. MUCH more so than OGL in the greater scheme of things.

As I saiad to Azgulor, I appreciate the conversation, Flatscan, rather than a slagging match, so thanks for that.

Yup, RQ is an old system, its not particularly rules heavy though. I tend to think Im talking about BRP, rather than RQ per se. BRP is the engine for Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer, games that have won kudos for their engines. I really dont know anyone who has tried BRP and didnt like it, or, at least saw that the rules were universally and sensibly bolted together. Now, I know that is anecdotal, and I suppose we all have different experiences.

But, straight from the horses mouth, Matt has said that they hid the D20 logo, changed its name to the OGL, and stuck a big 'Conan' logo in its place. Why? Well, I suppose its because stuff with a D20 logo doesnt sell anymore. (Anecdotal again, but I know of a few places that discount anything with 'D20' on the cover). D20 is pretty much gone.

Conans engine has some pretty good variants on the D20 system, you can see the OGLs ancestry though. Right down to those old fashioned 'character classes'. No one does character classes anymore, theyre seen in rpgs as a bit goofy really. And the, 'Elves see a secret door on a roll of 5-6 on a 6 sided die' nonsense is gone for good. The good bits about the OGL are the new bits, the bits, actually, inspired by other games, games including BRP. The bits directly as a result of D&D, well, we have to live with them when we play Conan.

Do people, who buy Conan, buy it for the rules system? I wouldnt say so. Im glad you run it straight out of the box, you must know that you are probably very much in a minority. It would absolutely, commercially, make sense for Mongoose to go in the direction of a rules-lite version of Conan, whether a BRP type thing, or a revised version of the OGL. It would be commercial suicide to make it more complex, wouldnt it? I hear people talk about really long real-time combats with Conan, and I bet youve had a few of those. Do all of your group enjoy that? Mine certainly dont these days, when there are faster rulesets out there, which provide just as much fun, if not more, than the OGL.

 

[flatscan]

I should point out d20 does NOT = OGL.

d20 is very much alive with 4e D&D. OGL is not.

They are 2 very, very different things.

For example you can see the new logo for the d20 system on the back of each and every 4e D&D book.

The difference was, if it has the d20 logo on it, it means you need the D&D PHB, DMG, MM to use it. If it said OGL on it, it probably had it's own take of the D&D PHB, DMG rules presented.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I'll say that WotC maintain some involvement with the 'D20' 'phenomenon', partly because they dont want to alienate their old customers, and, partly because its early days for 4th edition, and its success isnt guarenteed.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

And...BRP, RQ and MRQ are very different things too. They are all part of the same family though.

Yes, I understand that the Open Game Licenece part of the D20 system is different from the D20 system itself, theyre still part of the same family though.

We know what we mean, theres no point getting pedantic.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I will say this though, to call 4th edition 'D20' is srtretching it a bit, dont you agree? More like Magic The Gathering RPG, that would have been a better name for it.

 

[flatscan]

I will say this though, to call 4th edition 'D20' is srtretching it a bit, dont you agree? More like Magic The Gathering RPG, that would have been a better name for it.

It's not stretching it at all.

WotC made it very clear. If you wanted to use the term d20 on your non-WotC game book you had to have the line on your book saying it "requires the use of the D&D PHB, DMG, MM." If you wanted to use the term "OGL" all you had to have was the OGL game license in the back of your book as the Conan RPG currently does.

The confusion comes from the new version of d20 which has to do with 4e D&D and the old version of d20 which has to do with 3.0 and 3.5 D&D. The new d20 uses the 4e and the GSL. The old uses 3.X and the OGL.

I have defended D&D 4 in the past and will do so again. There's nothing keeping you from having as much or as little "role-play" as you want in the game except for your group and DM/GM.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I will say this though, to call 4th edition 'D20' is srtretching it a bit, dont you agree? More like Magic The Gathering RPG, that would have been a better name for it.

It's not stretching it at all.

WotC made it very clear. If you wanted to use the term d20 on your non-WotC game book you had to have the line on your book saying it "requires the use of the D&D PHB, DMG, MM." If you wanted to use the term "OGL" all you had to have was the OGL game license in the back of your book as the Conan RPG currently does.

The confusion comes from the new version of d20 which has to do with 4e D&D and the old version of d20 which has to do with 3.0 and 3.5 D&D. The new d20 uses the 4e and the GSL. The old uses 3.X and the OGL.

I have defended D&D 4 in the past and will do so again. There's nothing keeping you from having as much or as little "role-play" as you want in the game except for your group and DM/GM.

Yeah, Im familiar with the situation as regards D20 and OGL licence. I meant stratchingg it, in that the 4th edition isnt, neccessarily bad, but just so...different. The only connection to history is the use of a 20 sided die. It doesnt mean its a bad game. And, even though it doesnt actually ban you from 'role play', it certainly, actively, discourages it. You can mould a game to suit obviously, but its not a smooth fit when you try to do it with 4th. And, yes, Ive played it, its alright, I wouldnt recognise it as 'D&D' though, without the big logo on the front.

 

[flatscan]

Yeah, Im familiar with the situation as regards D20 and OGL licence. I meant stratchingg it, in that the 4th edition isnt, neccessarily bad, but just so...different. The only connection to history is the use of a 20 sided die. It doesnt mean its a bad game. And, even though it doesnt actually ban you from 'role play', it certainly, actively, discourages it. You can mould a game to suit obviously, but its not a smooth fit when you try to do it with 4th. And, yes, Ive played it, its alright, I wouldnt recognise it as 'D&D' though, without the big logo on the front.

No more so than 1e D&D and AD&D discouraged you from doing so. For some reason ppl forget that old school D&D and AD&D didn't have page after page out-lining RP because it wasn't necessary. But it did have page after page of rules for combat because that's what was needed to drive the "game" portion. But we're getting off topic. ;-)

 

[zozotroll]

Actualy, RQ and Glorantha are a good example of why D20 Conan can keep on trucking as is. Conan is popular. Lots of people out there want to play in it. So, as long as they still exist so does the market for more of the same.

Rq has existed for over 30 years, and I often use my 1st edition stuff with minimal changes in my MRQ ames. And I have added a good 10 new players to the game in the last 2 years. So it still marches on.

why cant Conan do the same? Certainly if Matt continues to publish things in D20 for Conan, 30 years from now I will still buy them and play them. i suspect flatscan at least shall do the same.

Matt said right here on the conan board that something good was comeing. He has also said it is not a change to 4e. II do not believe he would call a change to RQ a good thing on the Conan board. That would be something to announce on the RQ board, and he has not done that.

I have stated a desire for MRQ Conan. I stand by that. But, I certainly do not want to see it at the expense of a loss of D20 Conan. I guess I am weird, but really I can and do play with more than one game system. I have for instance used 3 different rules systems in one of my favorite systems at different times. All had good and bad points. So to with Coanan.

Given thier record, i dont see the Goose doing something dumb with what seems to be one of thier better lines.

 

[Dark Mistress]

You know i find this whole debate that D20 is dead and or that complex games are dead and rules lite games are the new things.

I seem to remember in the 90's people saying the same things. DnD is dead, rules lite games ala White Wolf and others games where the new way.

Yet arguably the best selling RPG of all time came after that in form of DnD 3.Xe. It was not a simple game and it brought the dead DnD back.

For the record I am actually not a big fan of D20, it works. But not a big fan.

As for the core of the debate that has completely derailed this topic. Well it really comes down to this. Right now mongoose knows how well Conan D20 sales, they have no idea how Conad RQ might sell. So unless the current version sales are on a steady decline it would be a risky business move to abandon for another system.

Plus there is evidence to support that D20 ala DnD3e is still popular. Paizo is making their own version of the game and the preorders have exceded their expectations. This based on them knowing they had 50K DL's of their beta rules for free.

Anyways not going to debate it. I just thought it was funny to see the same debate a decade later about the same thing more or less.