Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
Electrolysis for a fuel cell. Bonus, you get your "unrefined fuel" back.
Emergency Beacon Detection Range
- Thread starter Terry Mixon
- Start date
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Cosmic Mongoose
Based on the pictures of the Air Raft I can't see any way it is a 4 dTon craft. Lets use easy numbers to calculate with 5 long, 2 wide and 3 high = 30 cubic meters just over 2 dTons and that 3 meters high is just to use "standard" ceilings no where near the height of the vehicle (real vehicle height would cut that in half since it is not enclosed). So its docking bay should be 3 dTons at most (using the interpretation of 10% or +1dTon minimum added space). Even a shipping size which takes more direct space than the vehicle would need a LOT of waste space to reach 4 dton and why would a shipping container size affect the uncrated crafts docking space?
It seems to me that the shipping weight is in tons not dTons and then used as dTons for calculating docking space by someone who makes the false (now at least) assumption of 1 ton = 1 dTon. Seems like that "traditional" 4 ton docking space just gets used as no one officially fixed it. I'm sure I can't be the only one ever to question it.
A G/Bike is even worse its .5 tons (shipping) would be reasonable for a motorcycle in metric tons but in dtons? Oddly a dirt bike is 1 ton (shipping) but the image looks much smaller than a G/Bike (and whats up with G/bikes not carrying a passenger?)
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Cosmic Mongoose
Well you just proved I'm not the first to question it. Thanks.I inquired and was told by @Geir to use shipping weight as displacement. I don't make the rules.
I house rule it. Either the Air/Raft uses a 2 dTon docking space or it would be some type of Air/Truck (which I've seen some people claim is what the Air/Raft used to calculate docking space IS). So some of my ship designs don't match "standards". I'd probably let multiple craft totalling 10 tons or less share a 11 ton docking space made to hold 10 tons of vehicle. So 2 Air/Rafts use a single (standard Air/Raft) docking space in MTU.
I'd have to do some checking, but IIRC 4 tons was always the dTons required for an Air/Raft bay, and in Classic Traveller would have included everything a vehicle bay required, including a way to get in and out and space to do maintenance.
This may have inflated through the editions; Mongoose *generally* reset the numbers to match Classic, but there are MegaTraveller and TNE concepts that were adopted as well.
This may have inflated through the editions; Mongoose *generally* reset the numbers to match Classic, but there are MegaTraveller and TNE concepts that were adopted as well.
Much of the confusion stems from the fairly loose use of tons in CT; in the LBBs volume really wasn't addressed and you could take all mentions of tons as being metric tons (mass). Volume is only bought up when drawing up deckplans, which is not addressed in the LBBs as such but in the supplements and games with deckplans, but you can still basically assume a 100 dton ship roughly has a metric tonnage of 100, since a big chunk of that is one metric ton per displacement ton liquid hydrogen, and the denser drives and gear tends to be offset by lower density access space, working areas and such.
But only tends to be.
MegaTraveller and TNE moved to defining both mass and volume (as well as surface area...), and added complexity to it all. Some people thrive on all that crunch, but (along with all the MegaT typos) it complicated what had been a nice and simple ship building system for very little useful effect.
In reality, the volume of a spaceship is very much secondary to its mass. So I would reccommend that you just draw up deckplans to suit the practicalities of using them, and not worry too much about the 13.5m3 per ton business, which really only applies to liquid hydrogen storage, or maybe also cargo area that might need to be filled with similar density stuff (including fuel). If something like a vehicle needs more space , allocate it.
An Air/Raft is 4000kg. They're usually shown as about speedboat sized, with six seats in a 2x3 configuration, around 2m by 3m. The air raft bay of the Type-S scout in CT Traders and Gunboats has a two square wide (3m) bay door, which matches that size, and the bay itself is 3 squares by 4 squares (4.5m by 6m). Roomy, but presumably the area to the side of the bay door is mostly for maintenance, access and storage.
But only tends to be.
MegaTraveller and TNE moved to defining both mass and volume (as well as surface area...), and added complexity to it all. Some people thrive on all that crunch, but (along with all the MegaT typos) it complicated what had been a nice and simple ship building system for very little useful effect.
In reality, the volume of a spaceship is very much secondary to its mass. So I would reccommend that you just draw up deckplans to suit the practicalities of using them, and not worry too much about the 13.5m3 per ton business, which really only applies to liquid hydrogen storage, or maybe also cargo area that might need to be filled with similar density stuff (including fuel). If something like a vehicle needs more space , allocate it.
An Air/Raft is 4000kg. They're usually shown as about speedboat sized, with six seats in a 2x3 configuration, around 2m by 3m. The air raft bay of the Type-S scout in CT Traders and Gunboats has a two square wide (3m) bay door, which matches that size, and the bay itself is 3 squares by 4 squares (4.5m by 6m). Roomy, but presumably the area to the side of the bay door is mostly for maintenance, access and storage.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It's one reason I dropped vehicle bays.
As regards to the ten percent spacecraft docking allocation, that's actually really tight.
I tend towards ruling, at a minimum, it's for a specific hull configuration, if solo.
As regards to the ten percent spacecraft docking allocation, that's actually really tight.
I tend towards ruling, at a minimum, it's for a specific hull configuration, if solo.
But consider the following.
Putting game stuff aside, a 100 metric ton ship that has a given thrust value has exactly the same performance regardless of the hull volume. 100 m3, 1350 m3, 1000 m3, 2000 m3. In reality it's all about thrust vs mass.
Volume comes up when you're NOT in a vacuum and have to work out things like aerodynamics. Or when working out cargo cubage and living area. But the thing that has to add up is the mass. You can easily add volume to a design without changing performance. Shrinking a design while maintaining the same mass will likewise not affect things.
Most spacecraft components (controls, engines, weapons, typical cargo, etc) are far denser than liquid hydrogen, so what you're putting on the blueprints is mostly access space anyway. Don't bother counting exact squares except for fuel and maybe cargo. Cargo carried is mass limited most of the time, so a smaller area than you might usually allocate would be fine... but could be important if you want to ship LHyd or something else that takes up more room. A lot of the time cargo hold that's at its mass capacity could have plenty of space to walk around in, plus you need to work out a way to physically get the cargo in and out. Access space is always a consideration.
So do not fuss the deckplans too much, especially those with a lot of access space or where the drive and controls rooms seem a bit small.
Putting game stuff aside, a 100 metric ton ship that has a given thrust value has exactly the same performance regardless of the hull volume. 100 m3, 1350 m3, 1000 m3, 2000 m3. In reality it's all about thrust vs mass.
Volume comes up when you're NOT in a vacuum and have to work out things like aerodynamics. Or when working out cargo cubage and living area. But the thing that has to add up is the mass. You can easily add volume to a design without changing performance. Shrinking a design while maintaining the same mass will likewise not affect things.
Most spacecraft components (controls, engines, weapons, typical cargo, etc) are far denser than liquid hydrogen, so what you're putting on the blueprints is mostly access space anyway. Don't bother counting exact squares except for fuel and maybe cargo. Cargo carried is mass limited most of the time, so a smaller area than you might usually allocate would be fine... but could be important if you want to ship LHyd or something else that takes up more room. A lot of the time cargo hold that's at its mass capacity could have plenty of space to walk around in, plus you need to work out a way to physically get the cargo in and out. Access space is always a consideration.
So do not fuss the deckplans too much, especially those with a lot of access space or where the drive and controls rooms seem a bit small.
If you take it as mass only, it makes sense. Overhead for the hatch and bay enclosure mass.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I tend to think you need a hatch for the crew and cargo, if the space is enclosed.
Other than that, if it's to park a dozen fighters in a hangar, you can squeeze through the gaps.
Other than that, if it's to park a dozen fighters in a hangar, you can squeeze through the gaps.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
It's pretty simple. If you go only by Mass, you will never have deckplans. If you go only by Volume, you'll never have science. Which is more important depends on the kinds of Referees and Players that you have and the type of game you are running.
Sure you have deckplans. Since volume is flexible aside from fuel storage and to an extent cargo (I'm fine to stick with a setting convention of using dTons to define cargo volume), just draw up what you need that makes sense.
What the game has never really covered, to keep us sane, are all the engineering aspects of spaceship building. Pressures. Structural stresses. Thermal regulation. Closed cycle waste management. Quantum.
It can be assumed that the ACTUAL in-game highly trained spaceship designers and engineers take all that into account, have taken that all into account (AND refined the initial mistakes made centuries ago for the standard designs), and the 20th or 21st century nerds making high level design choices don't need to get into all of that.
But, as volume is flexible, you're also never WRONG to allocate a displacement ton per mass ton.
What the game has never really covered, to keep us sane, are all the engineering aspects of spaceship building. Pressures. Structural stresses. Thermal regulation. Closed cycle waste management. Quantum.
It can be assumed that the ACTUAL in-game highly trained spaceship designers and engineers take all that into account, have taken that all into account (AND refined the initial mistakes made centuries ago for the standard designs), and the 20th or 21st century nerds making high level design choices don't need to get into all of that.
But, as volume is flexible, you're also never WRONG to allocate a displacement ton per mass ton.
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Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Ten percent doesn't really allow you move the item about.
Hundred percent allows the monkey wrenchers to scramble around the fuselage.
Hundred percent allows the monkey wrenchers to scramble around the fuselage.
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Cosmic Mongoose
Depends how big the 100% is.
I actually think the early decision to base the deckplans on LHyd volume was a partial mistake. The text of Traders and Gunboats pretty much codified the idea that volume was king, but almost immediately ran into practical issues like access space and had to make special allowance for that. In hindsight it would have been better to realise that volume can be flexible and make it explicit that ships mass their tonnage.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Not that much larger.
However, you can assume, enough to do maintenance, and inspect the hull.
However, you can assume, enough to do maintenance, and inspect the hull.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
10% isn't enough to do maintenance. That is what Full Hangars are for.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
If they are flexible, then 2 Beowulf-class Free Traders can have entirely different layouts and even completely different dimensions.
boggo2300
Cosmic Mongoose
only if you completely misundestand what the word CLASS means in regards to ship design
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