Elves and Dwarves?

[Wulf Corbett]

I guess elves are "plants" in the mythological sense, sort of like the mythological chinese view that everything was made from fire,water, earth, air, and wood. Correct?

Well, anyone who cuts one open will find plant-like material and wooden bones, but essentially it will be just a different form of flesh and bone. It's just not the SAME flesh and bone... Their blood will not be red, but (like Star Trek Vulcans, who had green blood), their skin tone will be human-like, their bodies warm. Vivisectionists would notice the difference... They are not MEANT to be normal people, remember, they are usually not recommended as Player Characters, because their psychology and society is so inhuman.

I ran quite a few though.

Wulf

 

[Archer]

I guess elves are "plants" in the mythological sense, sort of like the mythological chinese view that everything was made from fire,water, earth, air, and wood. Correct?

Well, anyone who cuts one open will find plant-like material and wooden bones, but essentially it will be just a different form of flesh and bone. It's just not the SAME flesh and bone... Their blood will not be red, but (like Star Trek Vulcans, who had green blood), their skin tone will be human-like, their bodies warm. Vivisectionists would notice the difference... They are not MEANT to be normal people, remember, they are usually not recommended as Player Characters, because their psychology and society is so inhuman.

I ran quite a few though.

Wulf

Ok.
I will have hard time selling the setting to my players, with elves so different. So, what makes their society so very different? I can not remember that I ever read anything about that in the few books I have.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

You mean that they really are made of plant material? but they looke like they are made out of flesh and blood. And that they are affected by the climate just like normal plants?

Well, they are far more cabable of surviving climatic, weather or geographical changes than normal plants. They have the magical power of the Man Rune as well as Plant. They are both, and neither.

I always said that a mix of Aldryami and humans could survive being trapped in a cave so long as there's light... humans breath in oxygen and out carbon dioxide, elves absorb carbon dioxide and release oxygen... (But plants also give out CO2 in the dark, so there has to be light!)

Oh, and all elves are vegetarian cannibals. They eat other Aldryami. Every meal has to include a prayer in song praising the sacrifice of their lesser brethern.

Wulf

 

[Archer]

You mean that they really are made of plant material? but they looke like they are made out of flesh and blood. And that they are affected by the climate just like normal plants?

Well, they are far more cabable of surviving climatic, weather or geographical changes than normal plants. They have the magical power of the Man Rune as well as Plant. They are both, and neither.

I always said that a mix of Aldryami and humans could survive being trapped in a cave so long as there's light... humans breath in oxygen and out carbon dioxide, elves absorb carbon dioxide and release oxygen... (But plants also give out CO2 in the dark, so there has to be light!)

Oh, and all elves are vegetarian cannibals. They eat other Aldryami. Every meal has to include a prayer in song praising the sacrifice of their lesser brethern.

Wulf

Odd, but intresting. I however do not see why they would not be possible to play as a player character. Vegetarian elves has existed in other settings, and still been playable.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Odd, but intresting. I however do not see why they would not be possible to play as a player character. Vegetarian elves has existed in other settings, and still been playable.

But (to answer both your questions), Aldryami are, essentially, and extension of their forest. They ARE part of the forest. They are permanently tuned in to the Song of the Forest. It's like a low-grade hive mind, or an extra sense dependant on being within the forest. Only the very rarest renegade elves (like... player characters...) will ever stray out of the forest, and lose this essential psychic link to their brethern.

Imagine it like this. The Forest is the being; trees, flowers, bushes, elves - these are all just organs and cells within the body. Personally I much, much prefer this to the bland "just a little bit inhuman" non-humans in other settings.

Wulf

 

[Archer]

Odd, but intresting. I however do not see why they would not be possible to play as a player character. Vegetarian elves has existed in other settings, and still been playable.

But (to answer both your questions), Aldryami are, essentially, and extension of their forest. They ARE part of the forest. They are permanently tuned in to the Song of the Forest. It's like a low-grade hive mind, or an extra sense dependant on being within the forest. Only the very rarest renegade elves (like... player characters...) will ever stray out of the forest, and lose this essential psychic link to their brethern.

Imagine it like this. The Forest is the being; trees, flowers, bushes, elves - these are all just organs and cells within the body. Personally I much, much prefer this to the bland "just a little bit inhuman" non-humans in other settings.

Wulf

I understand perfectly. And yes, I agree. This makes them much more intressting than the pointed eared human you usually encounter in other fantasy settings.

 

[Malorium]

Half elves as a sub race never existed in Glorantha - they first made an appearance in Questworld though if I remember correctly. Anyone remember Lord Skyppens(sp?) Mansion?

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Half elves as a sub race never existed in Glorantha - they first made an appearance in Questworld though if I remember correctly.

As I mentioned, Pavis is the only canon Half-Elf in Glorantha, but otherwise that's true.

Anyone remember Lord Skyppens(sp?) Mansion?

We transported it into Glorantha (the Garsting Blank Land) and made it the base of operations of our PCs in RQ3. Then, when we briefly reincarnated the campaign in HeroQuest (same campaign, same characters, but all re-imaged & a new backstory - sort of like Marvel & DC occasionally re-write continuity), we continued the Skyppen Clan in Dragon Pass...

Wulf

 

[Rurik]

Correct me if I am wrong - it has been a LONG time since my mind wandered Glorantha - but don't all elves have a tree they are tied to, and die if that tree is killed?

That explains their fierce defense of their forests and unwillingness to wander.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Correct me if I am wrong - it has been a LONG time since my mind wandered Glorantha - but don't all elves have a tree they are tied to, and die if that tree is killed?

No, that's Dryads.

Wulf

 

[Rurik]

Correct me if I am wrong - it has been a LONG time since my mind wandered Glorantha - but don't all elves have a tree they are tied to, and die if that tree is killed?

No, that's Dryads.

Wulf

Ahhh, thats right. It's hard keeping all those vegatables straight.

 

[Archer]

Correct me if I am wrong - it has been a LONG time since my mind wandered Glorantha - but don't all elves have a tree they are tied to, and die if that tree is killed?

No, that's Dryads.

Wulf

Ahhh, thats right. It's hard keeping all those vegatables straight.

How many "vegetable" creatures are there in Glorantha?

I know in D&D there exist several spells affecting plant creatures, but there are relatively few of them described in any of the MMs.

I get the impression that it is a lot more common with plant creatures in Glorantha.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

How many "vegetable" creatures are there in Glorantha?

Every form of plant life is a son or daughter of Aldrya. And, therefore, every offspring of Aldrya is a plant. The intelligent mobile ones include the elves - Brown, Green, Red and Yellow, I think. The Dryads. Runners (NOT Rubble Runners, that's a different thing. Runners are like semi-intelligent elves, like monkeys to the elvish men). There are, I'm sure, others.

One oddity is the Jack-O-Bear. A emaciated oversized humanoid with a pumpkin head, which can hypnotise and enthrall victims magically, then rip them apart with it's claws and eat them. They are chaos-infected elves, apparently... very Celtic...

Wulf

 

[Archer]

How many "vegetable" creatures are there in Glorantha?

Every form of plant life is a son or daughter of Aldrya. And, therefore, every offspring of Aldrya is a plant. The intelligent mobile ones include the elves - Brown, Green, Red and Yellow, I think. The Dryads. Runners (NOT Rubble Runners, that's a different thing. Runners are like semi-intelligent elves, like monkeys to the elvish men). There are, I'm sure, others.

Yikes, mental breakdown...
I remember (unfortunately) the silly image from the bestiary I have, a monkey with a flower in its "hair".
There is a lot to fix when it comes to visual style and design of creatures from Glorantha. I have no problem with there being a proto-elf in the form of a primitive ape-like form, but it could be made to not look redicilous...

One oddity is the Jack-O-Bear. A emaciated oversized humanoid with a pumpkin head, which can hypnotise and enthrall victims magically, then rip them apart with it's claws and eat them. They are chaos-infected elves, apparently... very Celtic...

Wulf

Were not the Jack-O-Bear a complete creation of chaos?

And regarding chaos. I do not remember exactly how it was incorporated in Glorantha, but was it a Moorcockian chaos? like in the Elric saga, or like in WFRP?

 

[Rurik]

How many "vegetable"And regarding chaos. I do not remember exactly how it was incorporated in Glorantha, but was it a Moorcockian chaos? like in the Elric saga, or like in WFRP?

Chaos in Glorantha is (like most things in Glorantha) a uniquely Gloranthan concept.

The world of Glorantha is presented as existing factually in a way 'primitive' cultures might have explained the world. The world IS flat, and floats on an eternal sea or river (not sure which). The sun travels through the sky during the day and returns through the underworld at night to were it started.

Existence (the world, universe, etc) was born out of an eternal chaos/void concept. Later wars among Gods weakened 'reality' and let chaos back into the world, corrupting the world and it's inhabitants. Chaos creatures are often corruptions of creatures that existed before chaos.

Another aspect of Glorantha is that different cultures/religions all have different world views. While Chaos is Generally considered universally 'evil', there are exceptions. The Lunar Empire of the 3rd Age embraces chaos.

There are not clear cut lines between good and evil like most fantasy worlds. For instance the The gods of light and darkness (and their followers) generally consider each other as bad, but join forces against Chaos. The Lunar Goddess however views Chaos as 'natural' part of the world.

Again, it has been a long time since I played RQ (I have a lot of the RQIII books but mostly played in the era of RQII), but this is the short (no really, compared to the lore out there this is short) explanation of Chaos as I remember it.

 

[Archer]

That sounds very much like the Moorcockian view of chaos. It was something that existed before anything existed, and which the something was created from. And whenever chaos touch the creation, it warps it.

Chaos as force in Moorcocks universe are neither good nor evil, it just is. It is a force opposing law. Neither supreme reign of chaos or law is a good thing (chaos would for ever change things, while law would never change, not even to allow life).

Great similarities, I think, from how you have explained it.

 

[Rurik]

That sounds very much like the Moorcockian view of chaos. It was something that existed before anything existed, and which the something was created from. And whenever chaos touch the creation, it warps it.

Chaos as force in Moorcock's universe are neither good nor evil, it just is. It is a force opposing law. Neither supreme reign of chaos or law is a good thing (chaos would for ever change things, while law would never change, not even to allow life).

Great similarities, I think, from how you have explained it.

There are similarities, but Moorcock's universe has two clearly defined opposing forces, Law and Chaos, and the balance is between them is required. They are also easily associated with Good and Evil, though as you point out this is not true.

Glorantha has no easily defined opposing world forces. There is light versus dark, but they always unite against Chaos. Most religeons are opposed to chaos, though not all.

And while the world was born of chaos, it has not always been a part of the world, indeed there was a period before chaos was let back into the world.

The model is, well, more chaotic than Moorcock's universe.

 

[Archer]

That sounds very much like the Moorcockian view of chaos. It was something that existed before anything existed, and which the something was created from. And whenever chaos touch the creation, it warps it.

Chaos as force in Moorcock's universe are neither good nor evil, it just is. It is a force opposing law. Neither supreme reign of chaos or law is a good thing (chaos would for ever change things, while law would never change, not even to allow life).

Great similarities, I think, from how you have explained it.

There are similarities, but Moorcock's universe has two clearly defined opposing forces, Law and Chaos, and the balance is between them is required. They are also easily associated with Good and Evil, though as you point out this is not true.

Glorantha has no easily defined opposing world forces. There is light versus dark, but they always unite against Chaos. Most religeons are opposed to chaos, though not all.

And while the world was born of chaos, it has not always been a part of the world, indeed there was a period before chaos was let back into the world.

The model is, well, more chaotic than Moorcock's universe.

Ok. Though some similarities and some differences exist, chaos still is a force that corrupts, in that it changes the order of things.
That is really all that I require of it, as a GM to build intressting stories around it.

Regarding Moorcocks universe, it becomes clear that both Law and Chaos, mostly can be seen as "evil" in that they blantlantly ignore the existence of mortals, and each force seeks to oppose or destroy the other.
However, as it is in Glorantha (it seems), the only evil aspects of both forces are morals imposed on both forces by mortals who serve these forces. The evil done in the name of law or chaos are what becomes associated with that force, even though both forces are inherently without moral values.
I think the main reason why chaos is viewed by many readers as evil in the Moorcockian universe is due to the acts of Elric's Pan Tangian nemesis, the sword stormbringer (which really is something in it's own, not really of chaos nor law), as well as the appearances of Lord Arioch, whose arrogant and manipulative ways are all to easy to define as evil, from a mortals point of view.

But to return to Glorantha, there clearly is organized worship of chaos as a force, but then there also is chaos cults, which implies an outlawed worship of chaos. Can you tell me more about these? why do they worship chaos, do they have any specific goals etc.?

Are there any daemons associated with the force of chaos? or does daemons exist at all in Glorantha (I just assumed they do)?

And lastly, thank you for taking all this time to educate and reeducate me on Glorantha
I find the discussion (or rather discussions as there are several topics within this thread) intressting on many levels.

 

[Rurik]

As I recall the term demon is used synonymously with chaos gods or powerful chaos spirits but it is not really a common term in Glorantha. Their is a chaos cult that worships Cacodemon (mostly worshipped by Ogre's, who are chaos tainted humans, and most can easily pass for humans).

The term cult does not imply any illegitimacy - all worship is through cults. The term is used to refer to the organized religion for each god (Some more organized than others).

Since the game is level-less one of the main ways of advancing in power is rising up through the ranks of your cult. You can eventually become a rune-priest (spiritual leader) or, ultimately, Rune Lord (a very powerful hero figure, usually a great warrior). These ranks have benefits, and will make a character more powerful upon attaining them.

Virtually everybody in the world belongs to a cult. Religion is a major part of the world. It is hard to be an atheist when the gods are demonstratably real.

Also, on Moorcock, and this is just my recollection, it has been over ten years since I have read any of his work, is that his earlier Elric books portrayed Chaos as more evil, and the balance thing evolved as the universe of the eternal champion evolved. In the story Elric at the End of Time it implies Arioch is Lord Jagged from the end of time books, who is clearly not 'evil'. But in the early Elric books this concept was not as present.

Of course, Stormbringer and the Elric Saga was the first Moorcock I read, and I was pretty young, so maybe I missed some of the nuances.

 

[Archer]

Ok, I assumed the word cult was used in its modern meaning, meaning a religious worship that is outlawed or obscure.

As for the Moorcockian view on chaos. It is easier to view chaos in the earlier books as evil, but that is more due to the style of writing Moorcock employs in those books, and the fact that chaos is responsible for ending the world (until the next cycle).

Too bad, daemons are always fun to use. Wish they existed in Glorantha. However, chaos spirits sounds almost just as intriguing.

Something akin to the Lords of Chaos, or even Hera from greek mythology (the godess of strife and sometimes also chaos) would have been a fun plot device to drive stories.

As for religion being a big part of the world, that is as it should. Too many fantasy settings today ignore one important aspect of a world that is basically based of our own history; religion determined nearly everything.