Earth-Centauri War - Report!

[katadder]

lol didnt think there were that many TBH, but then i can see the races that are listed are generally all quite manouvrable anyway, its just odd that the g'vrahn has it.
oh and for valerius look:
http://www.mediafire.com/?7ngvol5w1fm
now with 4AD

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

Two Liati were already doing a number on my G'Vrahn before the Adira turned up to end my last game. Their GEGs were not as significant as their natural speed and agility, and their ability to dodge. I note with interest that the two battle points which jumped over to the adjacent table from mine were of course, Liatis....


Regards,

Dave

Yes, and what are the traits of that nice juicy, re-loading weapon you have on that G'Vrahn? Thats right, the emine, which ignores the liati dodge, you don't even have to roll to hit with it, and it turns the hull to 4 and does triple damage. One good hit with an emine on two liatis squadroned, and its good night vienna. Remember, that while narn players may whine about the liati also having advanced jump engines, the G'Vrahn does also, and with speed 8, no lumbering AND 2 45 degree turns, the G'Vrahn isn't all that far behind in the agility stakes either.

 

[Triggy]

game 6 and it was back to centauri prime making triggy turn half his fleet around to my JP and the victory pointing a JP at me. on this i went elsewhere and much as i didnt want to jump foxmeister again i needed centauri reinforcements from there so jumped him, he jumped out and allowed me to bring 2 liatis back to centauri prime with me. it was close fought game, however by the end the EA had just one explorer, a nearly dead chronos and a victory that could only fire on 4+ with 2 less AD as well as being adrift. with enough time we would have bagged another grand admiral.
also by game 6 the Adira and the biggest ship in each Drakh fleet had 5AD of heavy bolters on the front, the drakh strike cruisers all had GEG3 but our best performing ships with the GEG2 Liatis, all 5 scattered through the centauri fleets had this upgrade.

my thanks to all centauri players and everyone else for an enjoyable weekend.

This was probably my best game of the weekend and was really close but I still can't understand why you were saying I turned half my fleet around. I turned around the four Chronoses and Explorer and they were going to do that anyway as I wanted to maintain fleet range...oh well.

The big tipping of the game there was the table next to us surrendering just before Admiral Greg could come and support, meaning two extra Liatis came in to reinforce Centauri Prime. I'd have been confident taking the Centauri homeworld against Drakh alone, with the Admirals locked in battle in the adjacent sector.

well would be nice if Ben ever turned up with counters he hadnt taken from Vassal actual Gaim ships, like the other Gaim player had. I know LBH doesnt bring ships either but he does actually own all the ships he uses counters for, i dont think Ben even owns a ship.

He does own ships and rules, he just likes to try things out. Anyway, since when has taking printed counters been an issue? I agree that the fleet was the worst that the Gaim (already a fleet with issues) could take though.

Re the last games. It is alleged that Ben bank rolled the battle point replenishment for the EA. I know that the weekend was one of skullduggery and backstabbing with the merc. But that was a bit naughty.

He gave four credits back but given the extra "balancing" that went on to give the Centauri a chance after day one, this was many, many credits fewer.

I don't Know if we recieved anything extra at the end of Saturday?

I do Know that Ben gave EA a load of money as he had found out he could not win his aspect of the tournment.

It may be that both things were done to make the weekend last - ie not one day / make the end game too one sided. If so Ben may have acted on MGP's orders - kinda doubt it though........... :?:

Again, he gave four credits and also lost Earth for us as he joined the mercenary alliance - not good value for money and certainly not loyal to the end either.

Centauri "bonuses" were there to keep them in the game as they were hammered so heavily on day one. I don't object to this from a fun point of view but it did happen. The Sunday morning credits would have been 3-6 under normal circumstances but were at least 15...

Hey leave my G'Vrahn alone, its just one ship in fleet of others ships, and it is the most advanced and newest Narn ship to leave the dockyards.

the Centauri have the Demos, the Dargan, the Rutarion and the Liati which are scary plus the Adira has advanced jump point plus CEG and they moan about one ship in the Narn fleet, it may be good and has no Narn weakness but thats called progression, heck ask the Earthers it took them three ages from slow lumbering ships to fast moving ships.

I have few complaints with the technology but it is overpowered for the PL. The Bin'Tak is on a par with the Shalin and Warlock but the G'Vrahn is just plain better and that's why people take issue. Foxmeister points out the granularity of the PL system being an issue - it is but this doesn't mean you should make the ship more powerful, it means you have to work hard to give it weaknesses to compensate for the tech such as decreased damage points or decreased AD.

Thats why we have PL's. To balance. All ships in a given PL should be roughly equal, no matter what the race or age or technology level.

Precisely.

probably not, but I think that was also mainly down to me equipping them with GEGs which made them rather annoying. for battle level they do only have 28 damage which compared with the WS gunship isnt much more especially without AA, which is why it has more firepower than a WS gunship. one lucky high damage crit can kill one, in fact i think it happened to one, which isnt as likely to kill most other battle level vessels.

Yeah, most of the "Liatis are too good" calls came from the fact they were all riding round with GEG2 this weekend - something that is a campaign effect and won't be seen that often. Other than that, they're fine.

Finally, Thanks everyone for the weekend and I'll put some more direct feedback on the games and rulespack structure later but I had fun as Admiral and enjoyed having some normal battles too. There were some issues with the rules pack but for a first attempt, this worked out fairly well.

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

in fact apart from the WS carrier, tashkat and g'vrah do any other warships get the manouvrable?

Fireraptor, Vorlon Light Cruiser, Z'Takk... and of course Shadow Ship.

It's starting to sound a bit like "OK so apart from the roads, the irrigation, the wine, fresh water system and public health, what did the romans do for us?"

Does the fireraptor have advanced jump engines, hull 6, interceptors 4, command +2, advanced emine, advanced mag gun, heavy laser cannon, ion torpedoes, 2 45 degree turns without lumbering, as well as secondary weapons in all arcs. Nope.

Does the vorlon light cruiser, shadow ship or Z'Takk have anywhere close to those kind of benefits, that seem to be contradictory to the standard racial qualities of a given fleet? Fraid not.

 

[H]

can i just add, aside from whether it's broken or not, you seem to have issue that its, well, different from other narn ships.

Ka'Toc, faster, Thentus, as maneuvreable, interceptors i will grant you. Command, as good as the KBT, all weapons exist on other ships.

if their was a thing about staying with technology you know, the RAF wouldn't have eurofighters, instead we could have the prop driven Spitfire mark XXXIV, and wooden 3 deckers with cannons for the navy

 

[Foxmeister]

One good hit with an emine on two liatis squadroned, and its good night vienna.

How so? At the very best, a single e-mine shot can do 18 damage on a Liati and that would require every AD to hit and every damage dice to roll more than 1. In addition, the chances of those two Liatis being squadroned so close together as to be hit by the same e-mine is effectively zero. With the speed and maneuverability of the Liati, it's also pretty much a foregone conclusion that both Liati will be behind the G'Vrahn before it's e-mine has reloaded and can then stay out of the G'Vrahns front arc until the end of time.

IMHO, two Liatis vs a single G'Vrahn (i.e. 2 battle points each) will result in win for the Liatis 90% of the time. YMMV of course!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

can i just add, aside from whether it's broken or not, you seem to have issue that its, well, different from other narn ships.

Ka'Toc, faster, Thentus, as maneuvreable, interceptors i will grant you. Command, as good as the KBT, all weapons exist on other ships.

if their was a thing about staying with technology you know, the RAF wouldn't have eurofighters, instead we could have the prop driven Spitfire mark XXXIV, and wooden 3 deckers with cannons for the navy

Fella, I don't have an issue with it being different, what I have the issue with is that for its level it is too powerful, and ALL of the narn weaknesses, not just one or two have been eliminated completely. Thats my issue; nothing else.

 

[Shadow Queen]

how did Mike do at the weekend? hope you looked after him.

 

[H]

what is your proposal to fix it?
me, i think it's top end no broken i have seen them do amazing things, I have seen them die horribly. I would though happily see it have a 1 shot e-mine.

as for fixing all weknesses. it is a war priority ship, it "could" in theory win in a raid level tourney, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Triggy]

One good hit with an emine on two liatis squadroned, and its good night vienna.

How so? At the very best, a single e-mine shot can do 18 damage on a Liati and that would require every AD to hit and every damage dice to roll more than 1. In addition, the chances of those two Liatis being squadroned so close together as to be hit by the same e-mine is effectively zero. With the speed and maneuverability of the Liati, it's also pretty much a foregone conclusion that both Liati will be behind the G'Vrahn before it's e-mine has reloaded and can then stay out of the G'Vrahns front arc until the end of time.

IMHO, two Liatis vs a single G'Vrahn (i.e. 2 battle points each) will result in win for the Liatis 90% of the time. YMMV of course!

Regards,

Dave

The Liatis will win in this scenario but so will any pair of faster ships against a single slower one (e.g. the beginners' game in the rulebook of one Hyperion vs two Vorchans). This doesn't make the G'Vrahn not overpowered, just because it can't survive in a contrived matchup.

 

[Jim?]

I wouldn't say that the G'Vrahn is better than a Sharlin, let alone a Sharkaan. Any of the two have beams that match up, or are superior to the G'Vrahn's... Precise TD beams on the Sharkann at range 36? 8 dice of DD/P beam on the Sharlin? The G'Vrahn only able to fire at them on a 6 at over range 20 due to stealth (except for the emines that can't crit them.) Initiative is even between them, even with the G'Vrahn's Command modifier, so boresighted lasers will only be able to shoot every other turn, anyway, given even die rolls with the initiative.

I'd happily take any Minbari War ship against a G'Vrahn, to be honest... even a Neshatan.

 

[Da Boss]

I don't Know if we recieved anything extra at the end of Saturday?

I do Know that Ben gave EA a load of money as he had found out he could not win his aspect of the tournment.

It may be that both things were done to make the weekend last - ie not one day / make the end game too one sided. If so Ben may have acted on MGP's orders - kinda doubt it though........... :?:

Again, he gave four credits and also lost Earth for us as he joined the mercenary alliance - not good value for money and certainly not loyal to the end either.Centauri "bonuses" were there to keep them in the game as they were hammered so heavily on day one. I don't object to this from a fun point of view but it did happen. The Sunday morning credits would have been 3-6 under normal circumstances but were at least 15...
.

Ok Fair enough my apologies - I got that wrong as I said I was wondering.............However perhaps the rebalancing should have come from MGP
Still that aspect did not really bother me as much as having to play (or rather not play) his fleet - which sadly was not at all fun for either of us - which meant a hour or so wasted for us both - something that none of the other 5 battles were. Even you said you were trying to make sure no one has to play it more than once, which I think speaks volumes? I think he, and the others who faced him, would have more fun if had chosen a less obviously broken fleet. Still, as you say that is his decision.

 

[Da Boss]

what is your proposal to fix it?
me, i think it's top end no broken i have seen them do amazing things, I have seen them die horribly. I would though happily see it have a 1 shot e-mine.

as for fixing all weknesses. it is a war priority ship, it "could" in theory win in a raid level tourney, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Greg is no slouch (multiple tournament winner) and got hammered in some games when he took it in 5 pt raid tournament

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

One good hit with an emine on two liatis squadroned, and its good night vienna.

How so? At the very best, a single e-mine shot can do 18 damage on a Liati and that would require every AD to hit and every damage dice to roll more than 1. In addition, the chances of those two Liatis being squadroned so close together as to be hit by the same e-mine is effectively zero. With the speed and maneuverability of the Liati, it's also pretty much a foregone conclusion that both Liati will be behind the G'Vrahn before it's e-mine has reloaded and can then stay out of the G'Vrahns front arc until the end of time.

IMHO, two Liatis vs a single G'Vrahn (i.e. 2 battle points each) will result in win for the Liatis 90% of the time. YMMV of course!

Regards,

Dave

The maximum squadron distance separation is 6 inches; the spread of an emine is three inches in any direction, therefore 3 inches either side of that point in space is 6 inches, hence my statement. As the emine is 45 inch range, even if I smack them on all ahead full I still can't make it past your emine in one turn. And lets face it, the g'vrahn isn't overly short on agility either, one good come about action and you should still be able to bring your front arc to bare. And while I'm in your front arc, lets not forget the rest of your forward firepower, and given the command bonuses you are +1 over me for first move, improving your chances of a boresight. If I use them individually you are guaranteed a boresight. Oh and lets not forget that 18 damage on a liati is two thirds of its damage. Even a couple of extra hits from other weapons is enough to severely hurt a liati, once I'm crippled I've got a 50% chance of losing dodge.

 

[Jim?]

what is your proposal to fix it?
me, i think it's top end no broken i have seen them do amazing things, I have seen them die horribly. I would though happily see it have a 1 shot e-mine.

as for fixing all weknesses. it is a war priority ship, it "could" in theory win in a raid level tourney, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Greg is no slouch (multiple tournament winner) and got hammered in some games when he took it in 5 pt raid tournament

Took one myself in a Wargames workshop tourney to see how it worked out, and didn't win a single game with it... even with 8 Sho'Kovs to act as init sinks, so I could boresight what I wanted.

1st game:- got hammered by Clanger's Minbari without being able to see them.

2nd game:- Destroyed by the Dilgar, but it was a close game.

3rd game:- lost to the Drakh without killing a ship.

 

[Court Jester]

what is your proposal to fix it?
me, i think it's top end no broken i have seen them do amazing things, I have seen them die horribly. I would though happily see it have a 1 shot e-mine.

as for fixing all weknesses. it is a war priority ship, it "could" in theory win in a raid level tourney, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Greg is no slouch (multiple tournament winner) and got hammered in some games when he took it in 5 pt raid tournament

I killed it with 4 Demos...

There were another 4 Deoms on the table as well, but for the mostpart they were dealing with the other ships... :wink:

 

[Triggy]

I don't Know if we recieved anything extra at the end of Saturday?

I do Know that Ben gave EA a load of money as he had found out he could not win his aspect of the tournment.

It may be that both things were done to make the weekend last - ie not one day / make the end game too one sided. If so Ben may have acted on MGP's orders - kinda doubt it though........... :?:

Again, he gave four credits and also lost Earth for us as he joined the mercenary alliance - not good value for money and certainly not loyal to the end either.Centauri "bonuses" were there to keep them in the game as they were hammered so heavily on day one. I don't object to this from a fun point of view but it did happen. The Sunday morning credits would have been 3-6 under normal circumstances but were at least 15...
.

Ok Fair enough my apologies - I got that wrong as I said I was wondering.............However perhaps the rebalancing should have come from MGP
Still that aspect did not really bother me as much as having to play (or rather not play) his fleet - which sadly was not at all fun for either of us - which meant a hour or so wasted for us both - something that none of the other 5 battles were. Even you said you were trying to make sure no one has to play it more than once, which I think speaks volumes? I think he, and the others who faced him, would have more fun if had chosen a less obviously broken fleet. Still, as you say that is his decision.

No problem

About Ben's fleet - even he said that he didn't have fun that weekend as nobody wanted to face him. It is his decision and I'm just thankful that a) The Gaim are going to be reviewed (they'd better!) and b) nobody had to face Ben's fleet more than once IIRC. I'm sorry the games there sucked but if they mean that something positive comes out of their presence then that's not too bad.

 

[Foxmeister]

The big tipping of the game there was the table next to us surrendering just before Admiral Greg could come and support, meaning two extra Liatis came in to reinforce Centauri Prime.

Sorry, but my game was over. Simple as that. I'd already had 3 frankly shite games, and the Adira turning up behind my fleet for the 3rd time was the final straw.

I could've waited the extra 15 minutes to watch the Centauri roll lots of dice and destroy my entire fleet. Greg might well have turned up to roll a a lot of dice himself, but my dice rolling was over.

Plus, point of order, I didn't actually surrender - having lost initiative and with the Adira poised to enter behind me after all my ships had moved, I chose to initiate a jump point - I'd have never have even made it anyway because I'd already *seen* the result of that twice before!

I'm pretty certain the intention was that this event was supposed to be a fun campaign, not an ultra-competitive tournament, but that is exactly what it looked like to me! I didn't see anyone particularly bothered by the fact that my weekend of gaming was essentially ruined because I was not actually given the opportunity to *play* 4 out of 6 games!

Sorry, but I really do take umbrage when it's made to look like it was *my* actions that caused you to lose *your* game when in reality nothing could be farther from the truth! Katadder knew exactly what he w doing, and knew exactly what would happen - I don't blame him though because it was a tactically shrewd move.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Shadow Queen]

I vaperised a Demos with 16 Beam dice from my Warlock.

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

what is your proposal to fix it?
me, i think it's top end no broken i have seen them do amazing things, I have seen them die horribly. I would though happily see it have a 1 shot e-mine.

as for fixing all weknesses. it is a war priority ship, it "could" in theory win in a raid level tourney, but I wouldn't bet on it.

If people are going to insist that there is a top end and a bottom end in the war priority level; then perhaps there should be another level.

As for fixing the G'Vrahn, I agree with you, a one shot emine would go a long way towards fixing it. As it is supposed to be a fast cruiser, and probably gleans some ISA propulsion tech I don't think it should be made lumbering, but I certainly don't think it should have two turns. If it is going to have interceptors then they should be reduced to two. With those changes though, I would suggest that bumping its secondary weapons by a couple of AD on each would be an acceptable compromise.