EA early vs Minbari at 5pt Raid
- Thread starter TGT
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10x Sag always a winner :lol:
Or if you want to walk away without a broken nose you could try some Olympus Gunships (4AD DD beam on a skirmish ship, nice!), Artemis (plough right into the middle and get both broadsides going), Oracle (lower stealth duh), and a couple of Sag's for bombardment. An Avenger might be useful but probably not worth it against the web of death. I would stick to skirmish ships.
Or if you want to walk away without a broken nose you could try some Olympus Gunships (4AD DD beam on a skirmish ship, nice!), Artemis (plough right into the middle and get both broadsides going), Oracle (lower stealth duh), and a couple of Sag's for bombardment. An Avenger might be useful but probably not worth it against the web of death. I would stick to skirmish ships.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
An explorere could be a good choice - it gives you both scout, command and 6 fighters.
If you are concerned about AAF/web of death, used Tigers and fire from 4" away.
You will need to use all the anti-stealth tricks - scouts, fighters in base contact (one more fighter than he has AAF), splitting fire between multiple targets etc.
If you are concerned about AAF/web of death, used Tigers and fire from 4" away.
You will need to use all the anti-stealth tricks - scouts, fighters in base contact (one more fighter than he has AAF), splitting fire between multiple targets etc.
Are you playing a straight "first one to die loses" or a specific scenario?
As you know it will be a real uphill struggle in this game.............. :wink:
The other reason a Avenger might be useful is if he takes alot of fighters - coupled with a Leshath can be very nast.
I would guess it will likely be Tinashi, Tigara, Ashinta, Leshath (or 2nd Ashinta) - unless you are starting close togther - he will hammer you on the way in then it will all depend on luck (like most games with Minbari)
Course he could go with your fav of 4 Ashintas squadroned and a Leshath or Tigara- nasty!
As you know it will be a real uphill struggle in this game.............. :wink:
The other reason a Avenger might be useful is if he takes alot of fighters - coupled with a Leshath can be very nast.
I would guess it will likely be Tinashi, Tigara, Ashinta, Leshath (or 2nd Ashinta) - unless you are starting close togther - he will hammer you on the way in then it will all depend on luck (like most games with Minbari)
Course he could go with your fav of 4 Ashintas squadroned and a Leshath or Tigara- nasty!
Joe_Dracos
Mongoose
I'd have to ask if your using the new beam rules and/or redundancies.
At any rate, forget the explorer. Its just a big expensive giant bullseye that won't be able to shoot back (if the Mimbo knows what hes doin).
Oracles are a good start.
Long range beams seem like a good combo, but those stealth rolls could prove problomatic. Fighters are nice but you'll have to contend with both the Nials and the enemy fighter defences (which will likely include an Ashinta *shudder*). If he takes a Tigera group your ships up into tight squadrons (so he can't get between you), and keep them 12" apart.
Speed is your friend in this case. Close the distance and get as many ships as close as possible as fast as possible (especially to any Tinashi he takes). Damage potential is big on this as well so load up on Rail guns and Flash Missiles (I'd suggest heavy missiles, but they don't have precise). A single Raid level ship is a good idea, but I'd suggest a Hyperion for its speed and manouverability. Hopefully there will be a couple of asteriods and/or dust clouds to help cover your advance. As far as fighters go... I wouldn't worry about it unless he takes a Morshin. In which case counter with two avengers.
Otherwise I would suggest the following
Oracle -Independant
Oracle -Independant
Hyperion (any one with a laser cannon), Olympus gunboat
Olympusx2, Tethys x4 (core variant)
Artemis x2
Ignore the Leshath, its firepower is moderate
The Tigera is going to come to you, it will fire and deal conciderable damage (unless you can get lucky with a couple of your beams), but since your squadroned he will have to take on every ship in the squadron.
Keep both Oracles 12" away from eachother and the Hyperion. If the Tigera goes for the Hyperion then they should move in and beam the little bugger. All other ships should be using All Power to Engines (unless the Hyperion and Oly gunship can get a good shot with a reasonable chance of hitting). Close on the Tinashi and get into the flanks asap. You need to take the Nuetron Laser out of action by denying it targets.
If he takes a Troligan and 3 Tigera's.... all bets are off. Forget my advice and prey.
At any rate, forget the explorer. Its just a big expensive giant bullseye that won't be able to shoot back (if the Mimbo knows what hes doin).
Oracles are a good start.
Long range beams seem like a good combo, but those stealth rolls could prove problomatic. Fighters are nice but you'll have to contend with both the Nials and the enemy fighter defences (which will likely include an Ashinta *shudder*). If he takes a Tigera group your ships up into tight squadrons (so he can't get between you), and keep them 12" apart.
Speed is your friend in this case. Close the distance and get as many ships as close as possible as fast as possible (especially to any Tinashi he takes). Damage potential is big on this as well so load up on Rail guns and Flash Missiles (I'd suggest heavy missiles, but they don't have precise). A single Raid level ship is a good idea, but I'd suggest a Hyperion for its speed and manouverability. Hopefully there will be a couple of asteriods and/or dust clouds to help cover your advance. As far as fighters go... I wouldn't worry about it unless he takes a Morshin. In which case counter with two avengers.
Otherwise I would suggest the following
Oracle -Independant
Oracle -Independant
Hyperion (any one with a laser cannon), Olympus gunboat
Olympusx2, Tethys x4 (core variant)
Artemis x2
Ignore the Leshath, its firepower is moderate
The Tigera is going to come to you, it will fire and deal conciderable damage (unless you can get lucky with a couple of your beams), but since your squadroned he will have to take on every ship in the squadron.
Keep both Oracles 12" away from eachother and the Hyperion. If the Tigera goes for the Hyperion then they should move in and beam the little bugger. All other ships should be using All Power to Engines (unless the Hyperion and Oly gunship can get a good shot with a reasonable chance of hitting). Close on the Tinashi and get into the flanks asap. You need to take the Nuetron Laser out of action by denying it targets.
If he takes a Troligan and 3 Tigera's.... all bets are off. Forget my advice and prey.
How do you determine which player reveals his fleet first? Can you wait until the other player has put his ships on display but not yet on the table, then decide that you want to change your fleet? What happens if, in response to you replacing a couple of ships with Avengers, he decides to replace the Morshin with a couple of Ashintas? And then you put back whatever the Avengers replaced, then he puts back his Morshin, etc.... If it's part of the initiative roll to set up fleets, chances are the Minbari will let you deploy first, then decide whether he wants Ashintas or a Morshin.Joe_Dracos said:
I'm not sure why the Minbari would take Tigaras and a Troligan. For one thing, most of the Tigara's weapons are only any use at short range, which will help you break its stealth, and then those weapons can be intercepted. Ditto for the Troligan, plus it only has stealth 3; a couple of Hyperions will just love the opportunity to out-beam the Minbari.
Democratus
Mongoose
You are in a tough spot with Early Years earth ships. I agree that a few Sagittarius are a good idea. I like a squadron of 4. Each Sag can fire a single AD of missiles at each enemy ship, giving you 24 chances to break stealth and more than a few chances for a lucky critical.
I agree with the Olympus gunship, it can be a nasty suprise for its size.
Terrain will be critical. If possible, close with the enemy out of LOS using dust clouds or asteroids.
Never forget that ramming is a viable option.
I agree with the Olympus gunship, it can be a nasty suprise for its size.
Terrain will be critical. If possible, close with the enemy out of LOS using dust clouds or asteroids.
Never forget that ramming is a viable option.
Last week we played a game where i for once used a sharlin and my fav a ashinta
against 2 omega's and 4 hermes equal mix of star furies and t bolts
terrain was on my half of the board and 24" apart, one asteroid field density 8 and a gas cloud.
i won initiative and deployment rolls for the first turns all other turns were mostly in my favour as i had a +4 to int vs +1
its his fourth game and i chose to go easy by not piling into the asteroid nor gas cloud for the first few turns ...in fact relying on stealth i sent the sharlin up the middle to take on the 2 omegas
at plus 20" he needed a 6 to see me and then a 5 if he had...he did and got both omegas onto me...luckily i'd closed blast doors and managed to save a few hits off his rolling (which was very good as we're using burgers system)
few turns bringing in hermes (for some reason) sharlin was badly shaken and again took fire from both omegas (stealth wasn't very kind to me)
ashinata in asteroid field all stop for many many rounds taking pot shots hermes...but not adding AAF to my nials as its a bit cheesy for non tourney play...so fighters were swamped
sharlin gets one last big shot of from its neuton lasers and blows up a damaged omega which causes damage to the other one and also to two hermes and kills several fighters...then dies....
the rest of the game is about me clearing the skies of t.bolts and hermes whilst dancing around the last surviving omega ignoring the earth force captains hails for mercy
so really i was quite nice to him, by not putting my sharlin into either terrain choices he had a chance but i clinically taught him the power of the ashinta and loosing intiative sinks sucks for bore sight lumbering ships
against 2 omega's and 4 hermes equal mix of star furies and t bolts
terrain was on my half of the board and 24" apart, one asteroid field density 8 and a gas cloud.
i won initiative and deployment rolls for the first turns all other turns were mostly in my favour as i had a +4 to int vs +1
its his fourth game and i chose to go easy by not piling into the asteroid nor gas cloud for the first few turns ...in fact relying on stealth i sent the sharlin up the middle to take on the 2 omegas
at plus 20" he needed a 6 to see me and then a 5 if he had...he did and got both omegas onto me...luckily i'd closed blast doors and managed to save a few hits off his rolling (which was very good as we're using burgers system)
few turns bringing in hermes (for some reason) sharlin was badly shaken and again took fire from both omegas (stealth wasn't very kind to me)
ashinata in asteroid field all stop for many many rounds taking pot shots hermes...but not adding AAF to my nials as its a bit cheesy for non tourney play...so fighters were swamped
sharlin gets one last big shot of from its neuton lasers and blows up a damaged omega which causes damage to the other one and also to two hermes and kills several fighters...then dies....
the rest of the game is about me clearing the skies of t.bolts and hermes whilst dancing around the last surviving omega ignoring the earth force captains hails for mercy
so really i was quite nice to him, by not putting my sharlin into either terrain choices he had a chance but i clinically taught him the power of the ashinta and loosing intiative sinks sucks for bore sight lumbering ships
at the moment its
(all fighters are Tigers for 4" range)
oracle, hermes x2
olympus gunship, olympus gunship
olympus gunship, sagitarius (have one, must read up missile variants)
Hyperion
Hyperion
alternatively
(all fighters are Tigers for 4" range)
oracle, tiger squadron, tethys x2
olympus gunship, olympus gunship
olympus gunship, sagitarius (have one, must read up missile variants)
Hyperion
Hyperion
still deciding on tethys vs another tiger squadron?
or 2 avengers with tigers rather than hyperions
(all fighters are Tigers for 4" range)
oracle, hermes x2
olympus gunship, olympus gunship
olympus gunship, sagitarius (have one, must read up missile variants)
Hyperion
Hyperion
alternatively
(all fighters are Tigers for 4" range)
oracle, tiger squadron, tethys x2
olympus gunship, olympus gunship
olympus gunship, sagitarius (have one, must read up missile variants)
Hyperion
Hyperion
still deciding on tethys vs another tiger squadron?
or 2 avengers with tigers rather than hyperions
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
If i was playing vs mimbari with early EA i'd use:
Explorer All Auroras
Avenger All auroras
Avenger All Auroras
Olympus Gunship *2
Olympus Gunship *2
I only use Auroras as they are the better fighter, personally i find its better to take some losses due to AF and go crazy. The masses of fighters will lower stealth as will the Explorer meaning you can beam him to death with the gunships.
Tactics I'd drive all ships towards him as to try and make him choose whether to shoot the fleet carriers or the beam carrying ships.
Explorer All Auroras
Avenger All auroras
Avenger All Auroras
Olympus Gunship *2
Olympus Gunship *2
I only use Auroras as they are the better fighter, personally i find its better to take some losses due to AF and go crazy. The masses of fighters will lower stealth as will the Explorer meaning you can beam him to death with the gunships.
Tactics I'd drive all ships towards him as to try and make him choose whether to shoot the fleet carriers or the beam carrying ships.
Joe_Dracos
Mongoose
Another option is:
Hyperion (Any Raid Variant)
Hyperion (Any Raid Variant)
Hyperion (Any Raid Variant)
2x Rail Hyperion
2x Rail Hyperion
Every fighter is an Aurora... cause the others just suck
Hyperion (Any Raid Variant)
Hyperion (Any Raid Variant)
Hyperion (Any Raid Variant)
2x Rail Hyperion
2x Rail Hyperion
Every fighter is an Aurora... cause the others just suck
soo...final fleet choice
(all fighters are Tigers for 4" range)
oracle, tiger squadron (6 flights), tiger squadron (6 flights)
olympus gunship, olympus gunship
olympus gunship, sagitarius Fwd = long ranged Port = heavy
stbd = standard aft = anti fighter
Hyperion cmd varient
Hyperion cmd varient
why you ask?
these BELOW choices are taken to reduce stealth
oracle for scout and pot shots with 30" missiles
tigers 4" range outside AAF with AP missiles
sagitarius varied layout for long medium and close range options
these choices are taken to give me a cmd +2
Hyperion cmd varient, tiger flight (1)
Hyperion cmd varient, tiger flight (1)
reason
they'll be on close blast doors so i can only fire one weapon which is the beam, i don't expect these to survive for close range nor rear shots
these BELOW choices are taken to give me a big hitting squadron
olympus gunship, olympus gunship, olympus gunship
thats a lot of beam dice and they'll be sqaudroned
hoping to keep these safe until they can flank and all be within 8" and hope above hope all see!
(all fighters are Tigers for 4" range)
oracle, tiger squadron (6 flights), tiger squadron (6 flights)
olympus gunship, olympus gunship
olympus gunship, sagitarius Fwd = long ranged Port = heavy
stbd = standard aft = anti fighter
Hyperion cmd varient
Hyperion cmd varient
why you ask?
these BELOW choices are taken to reduce stealth
oracle for scout and pot shots with 30" missiles
tigers 4" range outside AAF with AP missiles
sagitarius varied layout for long medium and close range options
these choices are taken to give me a cmd +2
Hyperion cmd varient, tiger flight (1)
Hyperion cmd varient, tiger flight (1)
reason
they'll be on close blast doors so i can only fire one weapon which is the beam, i don't expect these to survive for close range nor rear shots
these BELOW choices are taken to give me a big hitting squadron
olympus gunship, olympus gunship, olympus gunship
thats a lot of beam dice and they'll be sqaudroned
hoping to keep these safe until they can flank and all be within 8" and hope above hope all see!
Joe_Dracos
Mongoose
okay, before you take the tiger... look at its speed and compare it to the speed of the Mimbo ships.
BAD choice.
BAD choice.
the thing is as a long time minbari player i know how effective AAF is!!!
Tigers with a range 4" weapon give me an effective speed of 12" i.e. speed 8" plus 4" range and nulify AAF that vs the auroras 14" basic speed then 2" range. the fact comes down to I can go with the faster fighters with less for a patrol choice get them into AAF and basically kiss points away as they're independent flights and give up VPs, or take more tigers which are unfazed by AAF and have more of them
I can I believe swap out the hyperions tigers for auroras and have a couple of flights to protect "ha ha" me from nials (+2 dogfight vs +3)
overall Tigers are NOT a BAD CHOICE at all in fact they're a very good choice, but taking a couple of auroras does give me a little better dogfight for no points lost so i'll swap out for 2 flights
Tigers with a range 4" weapon give me an effective speed of 12" i.e. speed 8" plus 4" range and nulify AAF that vs the auroras 14" basic speed then 2" range. the fact comes down to I can go with the faster fighters with less for a patrol choice get them into AAF and basically kiss points away as they're independent flights and give up VPs, or take more tigers which are unfazed by AAF and have more of them
I can I believe swap out the hyperions tigers for auroras and have a couple of flights to protect "ha ha" me from nials (+2 dogfight vs +3)
overall Tigers are NOT a BAD CHOICE at all in fact they're a very good choice, but taking a couple of auroras does give me a little better dogfight for no points lost so i'll swap out for 2 flights
Being a fighter, the Tiger moves after all the Minbari capital ships. If the Minbari want to run away from the fighters rather than get into position to do some harm to the EA capital ships, I'd say that's a good reason to take Tigers.Joe_Dracos said:
It might even be worth spending a few Patrol FAP's to get a lot of them - one point gets you six Tigers, meaning if the Minbari try to engage them in dogfights, they're going to be swarmed. Then upgrade all ship's fighters to Auroras, getting you faster, better dogfighters at no extra cost.
Iain McGhee
Mongoose
Might be a bit late in the day, but I'd suggest taking a pair of Oracles (odds on the Minbari will go after them early on, best to have a backup) which you should keep just inside scouting range as long as possible (behind terrain works best). Give them long range missiles, they can use them on ships they successfully scout to try to drop the Stealth score another point (with a bit of luck). I'd also go for two Sagittarius cruisers to go after the targets the scouts reduce Stealth on. I'd also keep them at range as long as possible since they're fairly fragile. Mounting long range missiles on the front racks might be useful, if you're lucky you could score some serious criticals early on. The Minbari might then have to hold back some of his fighters to use as Interceptors to counter them. Take Aurora Starfurys, but don't send them after the Minbari warships unless you lose the scouts.
Actually oftentimes it isn't worth taking a scout for stealth reduction.
If you have 4 ships against stealth 5, odds are that 1.333 of your ships will see the target.
If you have 3 ships and 1 scout, if the scout succeeds then 1.5 of your ships will see the target, if the scout fails then 1 will see it. So weighted average, 1.25 of your ships will see the target.
You're worse off for taking the scout.
With 2 scouts it gets worse...
If you have 4 ships against stealth 5, 1.333 will see the target.
If you have 2 ships and 2 scouts, if the scout succeeds then 1 ships will see the target, if the scout fails then 0.666 will see. Weighted average, 0.833 of your ships will see the target.
This ignores the scout's firepower, but that is usually fairly small. The main benefit from the scout's firepower would be the further stealth reduction from having shot the target already, but since your scout should be 20"+ away you'll be on 6's, so not likely to happen.
The more ships you have, the better a scout's value is... with 5 ships it is pretty much even, with 6 you see a slight benefit of taking a scout. But, they are pretty much over-rated IMO! Apart from Vree, ISA, Gaim and Psi Corps, and anything CQ5+ in a campaign... more likely to succeed in reducing stealth, makes more benefit. And Leshath of course is awesome.
8)
If you have 4 ships against stealth 5, odds are that 1.333 of your ships will see the target.
If you have 3 ships and 1 scout, if the scout succeeds then 1.5 of your ships will see the target, if the scout fails then 1 will see it. So weighted average, 1.25 of your ships will see the target.
You're worse off for taking the scout.
With 2 scouts it gets worse...
If you have 4 ships against stealth 5, 1.333 will see the target.
If you have 2 ships and 2 scouts, if the scout succeeds then 1 ships will see the target, if the scout fails then 0.666 will see. Weighted average, 0.833 of your ships will see the target.
This ignores the scout's firepower, but that is usually fairly small. The main benefit from the scout's firepower would be the further stealth reduction from having shot the target already, but since your scout should be 20"+ away you'll be on 6's, so not likely to happen.
The more ships you have, the better a scout's value is... with 5 ships it is pretty much even, with 6 you see a slight benefit of taking a scout. But, they are pretty much over-rated IMO! Apart from Vree, ISA, Gaim and Psi Corps, and anything CQ5+ in a campaign... more likely to succeed in reducing stealth, makes more benefit. And Leshath of course is awesome.
8)
