Drop Tanks... Back From the Dead?

[MasterGwydion]

Left a piece out. A battle tender can deliver almost anything. Why not a full drop tank ready to connect?

Because the drop tank would need to be the same size as the pod or ship it is replacing in the Battle Tender, which means that said drop tank will only fit one kind of ship. Bad or pirates and bad for the Imperial Navy. Pirates have no standardized ships and the Imperial Navy has many different type ships in the same squadrons. So, how many differently sized drop tanks are you moving through space?

 

[tytalan]

originally drop tanks were single use if used, although they could be carried along indefinitely if they were not used, explosive bolts would jettison the tank and break it up so as not to interfere with the jump in ship. The ship needed spacial jump capacitors as well which had a TL and cost.
The special capacitors were removed by High Guard 80

I believe the first ship to officially use drop tanks was the Gazelle and it almost never drops them to use them it also didn’t need special jump capacitors either. I’d check the LBBs because I don’t remember capacitors ever being mentioned in them as a requirement for drop tanks I could be wrong but I suggest you double check to be sure

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yes, if they take more time to connect a drop tank in the field, they can get that +2 DM. That's standard.

My thinking is that the sheer amount of fuel that has to be delivered very quickly is what makes the consequence of failure of the fuel connection big, not the docking clamp itself. And you have to arm explosive bolts now? Next to a giant fuel tank? The consequences include mis-jump, screwing up with an explosive bolt (either fails to disconnect or fires at the wrong time), leaky connection, ... there's plenty of good ones.

Getting rid of a tank only requires re-sealing the system. I can see that as routine.

With my group, I only make them roll things like this a couple of times until it "becomes routine". For something to become routine they cannot be rolling failures...

If they can hit a 6 or better with a roll of 7, then I don't make My players roll unless it is dramatic or combat.

 

[Terry Mixon]

So, if this were to be more commonly done (and I’m not recommending it, just thinking things through to a logical conclusion) then why not position a station 120 diameters (of the station) away from jumping ships with a powerful UNREP system to pump fuel into a ship so it could jump with smaller (or no) internal tanks? The hose would be shedded by the jump (perhaps only the replaceable end segment), but that could quickly be replaced for the next jump.

 

[MasterGwydion]

So, if this were to be more commonly done (and I’m not recommending it, just thinking things through to a logical conclusion) then why not position a station 120 diameters (of the station) away from jumping ships with a powerful UNREP system to pump fuel into a ship so it could jump with smaller (or no) internal tanks? The hose would be shedded by the jump, but that could quickly be replaced for the next jump.

Hook one end of the hose to a fabricator. That way as the hose is destroyed, more is simply printed and already connected. Open fabrication could be used to repair the fitting at the end of the hose after each use.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Hook one end of the hose to a fabricator. That way as the hose is destroyed, more is simply printed and already connected. Open fabrication could be used to repair the fitting at the end of the hose after each use.

Have a replaceable segment, like the last quarter or so. Unconnect the shredded segment at the coupler and attach a new one as it is coupled to the ship. That coupling against the ship would be what is blown loose before jump.

 

[shirgall]

Because the drop tank would need to be the same size as the pod or ship it is replacing in the Battle Tender, which means that said drop tank will only fit one kind of ship. Bad or pirates and bad for the Imperial Navy. Pirates have no standardized ships and the Imperial Navy has many different type ships in the same squadrons. So, how many differently sized drop tanks are you moving through space?

If they make behemoths like the Losenor at 700,000 tons, I think a tender that carries a crap-ton of drop tanks for recovery from an assault makes a lot of sense. If that bothers us too much, just make it a cargo bay item with a big door and any merchant marine can "drop" them almost anywhere.

 

[tytalan]

Drop Tanks are kinda a niche item. Because of the extra costs associated with them they really don’t make sense for a merchant vessel (the tank costs 25000 per tons of fuel space, the fittings has a one time cost of .5 mcr per tons of fuel space) plus it has the side effect of making the ship un streamlined. Also since it is so niche I wouldn’t expect a Starport to have spares sitting around, now that’s is only a waste of time (as well as the cost) at type A and B Starports but any other and you might have a problem.

It just makes more sense for a merchant vessel to instead use Fuel/Cargo Containers instead if gets you most of the benefits without the more limiting factors. I could see this as being a common practice outside of the major interstellar’s

 

[Sigtrygg]

I believe the first ship to officially use drop tanks was the Gazelle and it almost never drops them to use them it also didn’t need special jump capacitors either. I’d check the LBBs because I don’t remember capacitors ever being mentioned in them as a requirement for drop tanks I could be wrong but I suggest you double check to be sure

I don't need to double check, you need to learn to accept that people know what they are talking about.

Here are the quotes:

"L-Hyd Tanks: Disposable fuel tanks which are fitted outside the ship, and drop away before jump. The result is more interior space available for cargo and passengers. Cost: Cr 10 000 plus Cr1000 per ton of fuel. Usable only with jump drives if a special high capacity accumulator is installed (tech level 12; Cr500 000)." HG'79 page 32.

"L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor engineering, a joint press release explained. Commercial vessels equipped with the new generation of long-storage jump capacitors carry jump fuel in specially designed L-Hyd drop tanks in excess of their rated tonnage. Upon conversion of the fuel to the massive energy required for jump, the drop tanks are explosively jettisoned through the use of break-away connections and explosive bolts. Jump is executed when the remains of the tanks are a safe distance from the vessel." GDW JTAS 2 TAS News page 5.

"L-HYD TANKS The two longitudinal fuel tanks of the Gazelle class ship are engineered to be droppable in extreme circumstances. The ship has high capacity accumulators in its jump drive, and can completely burn its fuel prior to jump, storing the energy while the tanks are then jettisoned. The decrease in tonnage for the ship results in greater efficiency, and the ship can jump farther (J-6). Additional fuel tankage within the ship allows maneuver, but the tanks must be replaced before the ship can again jump." page 19 GDW JTAS 4 The Gazelle.

"Less than a month ago, the 800 ton liner Trimkhana-Brilliance was lost with 217 lives due a jump capacitor discharge immediately prior to jump. While all four survivors of the disaster are still under intensive medical care, interviews with the one surviving crew member indicate that the capacitor discharge may have been due to a delay in jump after full charging due to a failure of the port inboard L-hyd drop tank to separate completely." page 5 GDW JTAS 6

I suggest you read up on canon.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

the fittings has a one time cost of .5 mcr per tons of fuel space)

The fittings = .4% of the tonnage of the drop tank. That .4% is what costs .5MCr/ton. Take a 1000 tons J1 ship with a 100 ton drop tank the fittings are .4 tons and cost .2 MCr. The drop tank costs 1/2 that of the hull that would be needed to hold a 100 ton fuel tank which saves 2.5 MCr a net saving of 2.3 MCr for the loss of .4 tons of cargo. Seems worthwhile if you don't actually drop the tank.

plus it has the side effect of making the ship un streamlined.

By the rules yes. But WHY? Why can't they be streamlined? Add 20% to their cost like for the hull they replace? Aircraft drop tanks are streamlined so why not starship drop tanks? The tank above would cost 3 MCr reducing the savings to 1.8 MCr but still worthwhile if you aren't dropping the tank.

Added bonus a pirate shooting up the ship will most likely destroy the drop tank and be unable to jump the ship out of the system.

 

[tytalan]

By the rules yes. But WHY? Why can't they be streamlined? Add 20% to their cost like for the hull they replace? Aircraft drop tanks are streamlined so why not starship drop tanks? The tank above would cost 3 MCr reducing the savings to 1.8 MCr but still worthwhile if you aren't dropping the tank.

Added bonus a pirate shooting up the ship will most likely destroy the drop tank and be unable to jump the ship out of the system.

Probably to balance things with ship design. If you want to change the Rules in YTU go for it but don’t expect replies to the forum to automatically agree.

 

[tytalan]

I don't need to double check, you need to learn to accept that people know what they are talking about.

I think I’ll just report you every time you do stuff like this your very quick with personal attacks.

 

[Sigtrygg]

So, if this were to be more commonly done (and I’m not recommending it, just thinking things through to a logical conclusion) then why not position a station 120 diameters (of the station) away from jumping ships with a powerful UNREP system to pump fuel into a ship so it could jump with smaller (or no) internal tanks? The hose would be shedded by the jump (perhaps only the replaceable end segment), but that could quickly be replaced for the next jump.

That would work, and change the setting.

 

[tytalan]

The fittings = .4% of the tonnage of the drop tank. That .4% is what costs .5MCr/ton. Take a 1000 tons J1 ship with a 100 ton drop tank the fittings are .4 tons and cost .2 MCr. The drop tank costs 1/2 that of the hull that would be needed to hold a 100 ton fuel tank which saves 2.5 MCr a net saving of 2.3 MCr for the loss of .4 tons of cargo. Seems worthwhile if you don't actually drop the tank.

If you don’t drop them it kinda of defeats the purpose and it’s still cheaper in that case to just make the ship that much bigger and give it Fuel/Cargo Containers. At a 5000 credits/ .05 Dts per Tonnage of Fuel it makes much more sense

 

[Sigtrygg]

I think I’ll just report you every time you do stuff like this your very quick with personal attacks.

You started it with your suggestion I don't know what I am talking about. What is that if not a personal attack?

I reiterate the quotes

Here are the quotes:

"L-Hyd Tanks: Disposable fuel tanks which are fitted outside the ship, and drop away before jump. The result is more interior space available for cargo and passengers. Cost: Cr 10 000 plus Cr1000 per ton of fuel. Usable only with jump drives if a special high capacity accumulator is installed (tech level 12; Cr500 000)." HG'79 page 32.

"L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor engineering, a joint press release explained. Commercial vessels equipped with the new generation of long-storage jump capacitors carry jump fuel in specially designed L-Hyd drop tanks in excess of their rated tonnage. Upon conversion of the fuel to the massive energy required for jump, the drop tanks are explosively jettisoned through the use of break-away connections and explosive bolts. Jump is executed when the remains of the tanks are a safe distance from the vessel." GDW JTAS 2 TAS News page 5.

"L-HYD TANKS The two longitudinal fuel tanks of the Gazelle class ship are engineered to be droppable in extreme circumstances. The ship has high capacity accumulators in its jump drive, and can completely burn its fuel prior to jump, storing the energy while the tanks are then jettisoned. The decrease in tonnage for the ship results in greater efficiency, and the ship can jump farther (J-6). Additional fuel tankage within the ship allows maneuver, but the tanks must be replaced before the ship can again jump." page 19 GDW JTAS 4 The Gazelle.

"Less than a month ago, the 800 ton liner Trimkhana-Brilliance was lost with 217 lives due a jump capacitor discharge immediately prior to jump. While all four survivors of the disaster are still under intensive medical care, interviews with the one surviving crew member indicate that the capacitor discharge may have been due to a delay in jump after full charging due to a failure of the port inboard L-hyd drop tank to separate completely." page 5 GDW JTAS 6

I suggest you read up on canon.

 

[tytalan]

I suggest you read up on canon.

And I suggest you cut the attitude I didn’t accuse you of anything I even specified that I could be wrong and you come out of the gate attacking.

 

[tytalan]

Sigtrygg

You started it with your suggestion I don't know what I am talking about. What is that if not a personal attack?

I’d check the LBBs because I don’t remember capacitors ever being mentioned in them as a requirement for drop tanks I could be wrong but I suggest you double check to be sure

There was no attack and you are not perfect and you have been known to be wrong before.

 

[tytalan]

Drop Tanks when compared to Fuel/Cargo Containers only make sense if you’re going to drop them otherwise you just have extra expensive fuel tankage.

 

[Sigtrygg]

And I suggest you cut the attitude I didn’t accuse you of anything I even specified that I could be wrong and you come out of the gate attacking.

Perhaps you don't recognise how your words could cause offence?

You stated

"I believe the first ship to officially use drop tanks was the Gazelle and it almost never drops them to use them it also didn’t need special jump capacitors either. I’d check the LBBs because I don’t remember capacitors ever being mentioned in them as a requirement for drop tanks I could be wrong but I suggest you double check to be sure"

That last bit is the insult, you are suggesting I don't know what I am talking about, that is a personal attack. If I am being overly sensitive then I apologise.

There are many ways you could have phrased it that would have been less antagonistic, or even just asked me for the references, which I am happy to provide. And have provided.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

If you don’t drop them it kinda of defeats the purpose and it’s still cheaper in that case to just make the ship that much bigger and give it Fuel/Cargo Containers. At a 5000 credits/ .05 Dts per Tonnage of Fuel it makes much more sense

So you buy the full cost hull for more money than the drop tanks AND spend more money for the fuel/cargo containers and it makes more sense then spending less?

Drop tanks are cheaper than the hull they replace and the extra cost of the connections still leaves a significant cost savings.