Drop Tanks... Back From the Dead?

boggo2300 said:
Honestly I can't think of a use case for L-HYD tanks on a freighter,
Click to expand...

In the example I gave earlier a 1000 ton Jump 1 freighter is 2.3 MCr cheaper at the cost of .4 tons of cargo. The higher the jump level the greater the savings. Also as a pirate firing on the ship is highly likely to destroy the tanks and be unable to jump out with the ship unless they have a replacement ready or a jump tug. They might loot the ship but not steal it. Even just dropping the tank would raise the ship from 1 g to 1.11 g. Sounds like a use case to me.

EDIT: Since the post I modified a 1000 ton J2 freighter design I have to use a 200 ton drop tank. Cost savings about 3.5% The design is not optimized for low cost or the savings would likely be higher. Also it is TL 11 and uses the TL8 fusion not TL 12 and since basic power is lowered the power plant tonnage could be lowered and TL 12 plants while 50% more powerful are 100% more expensive which would probably increase that cost savings a little. The ship actually GAINED 2.7 tons of cargo so making it cheaper and increasing income. It also accelerates by 1.25 g when dropping the tank (to escape pirates) rather than 1g while carrying the tank.
 
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If the drop tanks were that scrunchy, pre technological level fifteen, I'd make them from aluminum.

Or, considering weight doesn't matter, stainless steel.

Which would be a lot cheaper than twenty five kilostarbux per tonne.
 
Condottiere said:
If the drop tanks were that scrunchy, pre technological level fifteen, I'd make them from aluminum.

Or, considering weight doesn't matter, stainless steel.

Which would be a lot cheaper than twenty five kilostarbux per tonne.
Click to expand...

I assume that the material used includes qualities that let it hold LH2 without leaking and to enable jump (the fabled lanthanum grid perhaps?). Presumably aluminum and stainless steel wouldn't handle those features.
 
boggo2300 said:
Honestly I can't think of a use case for L-HYD tanks on a freighter, Military vessels sure, still maybe not the best idea, but having the ability to make a big jump like the CT Gazelle could at least come in useful, but for freighters or really any commercial ship, to me it doesn't make any sense.
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The problem for militaries is that of logistics. Drop tanks are primarily useful when jumping from somewhere the tanks can be recovered. So they are most useful for moving from one infrastructure rich locale to another. Also, military ships are enormous. Putting drop tanks on a cruiser is like 20,000 dtons of drop tanks? And they probably aren't interchangeable, so you need many different sets of drop tanks at whereever you want to launch your deep raid from. Stockpiling that kind of thing and not letting your enemies know that's where it's stockpiled seems quite a challenge.

Corporate freighters, on the other hand, tend to go from point A to point B and back. And they tend to be the same class of ship. So if you can add another 300 tons of cargo to your 1000 ton freighter and/or give it J6 capacity without crippling its cargo capacity. You could set up a direct Regina to Efate and back route that isn't spending 60% of the hullspace on fuel, no need to stop at all those D & E ports in between.

And freighters don't care about lost weapons capacity, especially if they can use drop tanks to go from high pop, safe world to hi pop, safe world directly and skip the backwaters.
 
Terry Mixon said:
So, really, really fast. Faster than I suspect hydrogen coils actually be used, so not helpful. I’ll run with the assumption that a six-minute space combat turn is the time it takes to pump the tons and tons of hydrogen.
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So for every 20 tons of fuel you need to transfer in 6 minutes you need 10 tons of UNREP + Power plants to power them.
 
Vormaerin said:
The problem for militaries is that of logistics. Drop tanks are primarily useful when jumping from somewhere the tanks can be recovered. So they are most useful for moving from one infrastructure rich locale to another. Also, military ships are enormous. Putting drop tanks on a cruiser is like 20,000 dtons of drop tanks? And they probably aren't interchangeable, so you need many different sets of drop tanks at whereever you want to launch your deep raid from. Stockpiling that kind of thing and not letting your enemies know that's where it's stockpiled seems quite a challenge.

Corporate freighters, on the other hand, tend to go from point A to point B and back. And they tend to be the same class of ship. So if you can add another 300 tons of cargo to your 1000 ton freighter and/or give it J6 capacity without crippling its cargo capacity. You could set up a direct Regina to Efate and back route that isn't spending 60% of the hullspace on fuel, no need to stop at all those D & E ports in between.

And freighters don't care about lost weapons capacity, especially if they can use drop tanks to go from high pop, safe world to hi pop, safe world directly and skip the backwaters.
Click to expand...
This would likely massively change the dynamics of Charted Space. This would create a true spoke and wheel structure to trade as now the corporate-owned freighters would only be stopping at their destinations, as long as that destination was within J-6. My guess is that you would also no longer see less than J-6 on corporate-owned freighters. They would be able to change their routes with minimal to zero change in their design. The defining factor would now be infrastructure as opposed to J-Rating of the ship.
 
MasterGwydion said:
This would likely massively change the dynamics of Charted Space. This would create a true spoke and wheel structure to trade as now the corporate-owned freighters would only be stopping at their destinations, as long as that destination was within J-6. My guess is that you would also no longer see less than J-6 on corporate-owned freighters. They would be able to change their routes with minimal to zero change in their design. The defining factor would now be infrastructure as opposed to J-Rating of the ship.
Click to expand...
Now I’ll need to build that drop refueling station for the Core sector. I say the Achenaar Antilles Line has the pull and wealth to make it happen. Maybe make a modified J6 version of one of my Hercules-Class Merchant Tenders for them to have going the routes. The cost of the infrastructure makes it unaffordable to lesser companies.
 
Why engineers choose stainless steel hoses for liquid hydrogen
March 10, 2023 by Concept Group LLC

A range of materials may be used with hydrogen including stainless steel, composite pipes, carbon steel, and low-alloy steel. But stainless steel provides the ideal combination of high strength, corrosion resistance, and performance for hydrogen applications. It is suitable for gaseous and liquid hydrogen service and serves an extensive temperature range, including cryogenic temperatures. Stainless steel is used for hydrogen storage, piping systems, fuel cells, and storage tanks. Of the four types of stainless steel (austenitic, ferritic, martensitic, and duplex), austenitic-grade stainless steels are ideal for hydrogen service.

Austenitic stainless steel
Type 304/316 austenitic stainless steels are widely used for liquid hydrogen services because they can resist the cryogenic temperatures (approx. -253 degrees Celsius). At such low temperatures, austenitic stainless steels exhibit good ductility and energy absorption behavior which is essential to maintaining safety. At the same time, the hydrogen diffusion rate of austenitic stainless steel is significantly less when compared to other available materials. The excellent corrosion resistance of stainless steel in corrosive environments keeps them ahead of other hydrogen piping materials.

304/304L vs. 316/316L
In Comparison of Stainless Steels for High-Pressure Hydrogen Service, Chris San Marchi and Brian P. Somerday established that 316/316L austenitic stainless steels are a better choice than 304/304L for hydrogen piping.

Flexible insulon vacuum jacketed transfer hose in half inch diameter size
Insulon vacuum jacketed hose made with 316L stainless steel
Important considerations for hydrogen systems
Selecting materials for a hydrogen piping system is a critical task. Hydrogen interacts with many materials, and choosing the wrong one can cause multiple issues. Some of the most common concerns are:

Hydrogen embrittlement
Hydrogen induced cracking
Hydrogen stress cracking
Loss of ductility
While selecting materials for hydrogen piping systems, engineers carefully consider the possibility of hydrogen embrittlement. Hydrogen embrittlement refers to the dissolution and diffusion of hydrogen into steel. This process reduces ductility and degrades the mechanical properties of the material.

Engineers must also carefully consider property changes at lower temperatures. For lower temperature applications, an impact test may be necessary.

Types of stainless steel hoses for liquid hydrogen
Two types of stainless steel hoses are used for liquid hydrogen service: cryogenic hoses and vacuum jacketed hoses. Although these hoses are both made with stainless steel, they are significantly different products that may have significant effects on your system’s performance.

What’s the difference between cryogenic hoses and vacuum jacketed hoses?
At first, cryogenic hoses and vacuum jacketed hoses may look like very similar products. They are both used to transfer cryogenic fluids including liquid nitrogen, carbon dioxide, argon, oxygen, and … Read more
 
Condottiere said:
Why engineers choose stainless steel hoses for liquid hydrogen
March 10, 2023 by Concept Group LLC

A range of materials may be used with hydrogen including stainless steel, composite pipes, carbon steel, and low-alloy steel. But stainless steel provides the ideal combination of high strength, corrosion resistance, and performance for hydrogen applications. It is suitable for gaseous and liquid hydrogen service and serves an extensive temperature range, including cryogenic temperatures. Stainless steel is used for hydrogen storage, piping systems, fuel cells, and storage tanks. Of the four types of stainless steel (austenitic, ferritic, martensitic, and duplex), austenitic-grade stainless steels are ideal for hydrogen service.

Austenitic stainless steel
Type 304/316 austenitic stainless steels are widely used for liquid hydrogen services because they can resist the cryogenic temperatures (approx. -253 degrees Celsius). At such low temperatures, austenitic stainless steels exhibit good ductility and energy absorption behavior which is essential to maintaining safety. At the same time, the hydrogen diffusion rate of austenitic stainless steel is significantly less when compared to other available materials. The excellent corrosion resistance of stainless steel in corrosive environments keeps them ahead of other hydrogen piping materials.

304/304L vs. 316/316L
In Comparison of Stainless Steels for High-Pressure Hydrogen Service, Chris San Marchi and Brian P. Somerday established that 316/316L austenitic stainless steels are a better choice than 304/304L for hydrogen piping.

Flexible insulon vacuum jacketed transfer hose in half inch diameter size
Insulon vacuum jacketed hose made with 316L stainless steel
Important considerations for hydrogen systems
Selecting materials for a hydrogen piping system is a critical task. Hydrogen interacts with many materials, and choosing the wrong one can cause multiple issues. Some of the most common concerns are:

Hydrogen embrittlement
Hydrogen induced cracking
Hydrogen stress cracking
Loss of ductility
While selecting materials for hydrogen piping systems, engineers carefully consider the possibility of hydrogen embrittlement. Hydrogen embrittlement refers to the dissolution and diffusion of hydrogen into steel. This process reduces ductility and degrades the mechanical properties of the material.

Engineers must also carefully consider property changes at lower temperatures. For lower temperature applications, an impact test may be necessary.

Types of stainless steel hoses for liquid hydrogen
Two types of stainless steel hoses are used for liquid hydrogen service: cryogenic hoses and vacuum jacketed hoses. Although these hoses are both made with stainless steel, they are significantly different products that may have significant effects on your system’s performance.

What’s the difference between cryogenic hoses and vacuum jacketed hoses?
At first, cryogenic hoses and vacuum jacketed hoses may look like very similar products. They are both used to transfer cryogenic fluids including liquid nitrogen, carbon dioxide, argon, oxygen, and … Read more
Click to expand...
So noted.
 
All this discussion, because there's no rule for just "tanks"... i.e. ones you don't really intend to drop at all (and if you did, they'd probably be full).
The ship I had in mind to start the thread, was a 100 ton in-system freighter, with 200 ton's worth of external cargo mounts, that could also replace the cargo mounts with external tanks for fuel scooping. Ship that might support a collective of belters... and maybe, disappoint a merchant player who's expecting a shiny new free trader... but that's beside the point.
 
Because I couldn't help myself, here is the Achenaar Antilles-Class 16,000,000-Ton Drop Jump Station that supports a modified version of my Hercules-Class 1,000,000-Ton Merchant Tender with J6 but no internal fuel storage for the jump drive. It is fed and services by a fleet of 10,000-ton fuel and cargo shuttles.

Whether this is good for Charted Space or not, that's not the point of this build. It was just to satisfy my need to make it. Use them if you like.

The incredibly expensive Achenaar Antilles Drop Jump Station is designed and built in the Core sector to support the network of J6 hubs the company has put in place to get a stranglehold trade there. In the bustling hubs where they operate, the traffic is usually heavy enough to warrant more than one of them to support the company's traffic. It services the specially design Hercules-Class 1,000,000 J6 merchant tenders that each can haul 4,500,000 tons of cargo in 50,000-ton pods.

The vessels have no on board jump fuel storage and are fed by the vast UNREP system on the station that can pump the required 3,300,000 tons of fuel aboard the ship in six minutes. The replaceable final segment of the piping is jettisoned and lost in the jump, but it is quickly replaced, and the station is ready to go again in 24 hours. It is serviced by a fleet of 10,000-ton fuel shuttles that are making continuous runs to the local gas giant (these stations are only in systems with gas giants because of their deep thirst for fuel) and 10,000 cargo shuttles to get the cargo off the pods and to the local economy when the cargo isn't merely being transshipped. As the round trip to the gas giant might take up to three weeks (depending on orbits and relative positions) there are a lot of these in use at any one time.

While all of these elements are expensive, they mean Achenaar Antilles can move far more cargo than their competitors and take it further. They are the undisputed giant in shipping in the Core sector.

1749411836143.png1749411881084.png


A Mongoose 2e design. The J6 Hercules-Class Merchant Tender is a civilian version of the Warmonger-Class Battle Tender build and run by the Achenaar Antilles Line in the Core sector. It has no jump fuel storage and is fed by special stations out beyond the jump limit (this is an external variant of the drop tank) that can feed it all the required fuel (3,300,000 tons) in six minutes so it can jump.

Their network of stations support this and lesser companies cannot match the amount of cargo they carry or the distance they can deliver it. This is an advantage they hold over their rivals. The vessel is designed to haul a mixture of 90 Type V 50,000-Ton cargo, fuel, low berth, and passenger pods (4,500,000 tons total, 4.5x the ship's tonnage). At need, it can also carry Type V 50,000-Ton Marine Transport pods and Navy Passenger Pods under contract.

1749412122537.png1749412138527.png
A Mongoose 2e design. This fuel shuttle can collect and purify 9,000 tons of fuel a day.


1749412365937.png

A Mongoose 2e design. This cargo shuttle can haul almost 9,500 tons of cargo a day.

1749412419486.png
 
Condottiere said:
Why engineers choose stainless steel hoses for liquid hydrogen
March 10, 2023 by Concept Group LLC

A range of materials may be used with hydrogen including stainless steel, composite pipes, carbon steel, and low-alloy steel. But stainless steel provides the ideal combination of high strength, corrosion resistance, and performance for hydrogen applications. It is suitable for gaseous and liquid hydrogen service and serves an extensive temperature range, including cryogenic temperatures. Stainless steel is used for hydrogen storage, piping systems, fuel cells, and storage tanks. Of the four types of stainless steel (austenitic, ferritic, martensitic, and duplex), austenitic-grade stainless steels are ideal for hydrogen service.

Austenitic stainless steel
Type 304/316 austenitic stainless steels are widely used for liquid hydrogen services because they can resist the cryogenic temperatures (approx. -253 degrees Celsius). At such low temperatures, austenitic stainless steels exhibit good ductility and energy absorption behavior which is essential to maintaining safety. At the same time, the hydrogen diffusion rate of austenitic stainless steel is significantly less when compared to other available materials. The excellent corrosion resistance of stainless steel in corrosive environments keeps them ahead of other hydrogen piping materials.

304/304L vs. 316/316L
In Comparison of Stainless Steels for High-Pressure Hydrogen Service, Chris San Marchi and Brian P. Somerday established that 316/316L austenitic stainless steels are a better choice than 304/304L for hydrogen piping.

Flexible insulon vacuum jacketed transfer hose in half inch diameter size
Insulon vacuum jacketed hose made with 316L stainless steel
Important considerations for hydrogen systems
Selecting materials for a hydrogen piping system is a critical task. Hydrogen interacts with many materials, and choosing the wrong one can cause multiple issues. Some of the most common concerns are:

Hydrogen embrittlement
Hydrogen induced cracking
Hydrogen stress cracking
Loss of ductility
While selecting materials for hydrogen piping systems, engineers carefully consider the possibility of hydrogen embrittlement. Hydrogen embrittlement refers to the dissolution and diffusion of hydrogen into steel. This process reduces ductility and degrades the mechanical properties of the material.

Engineers must also carefully consider property changes at lower temperatures. For lower temperature applications, an impact test may be necessary.

Types of stainless steel hoses for liquid hydrogen
Two types of stainless steel hoses are used for liquid hydrogen service: cryogenic hoses and vacuum jacketed hoses. Although these hoses are both made with stainless steel, they are significantly different products that may have significant effects on your system’s performance.

What’s the difference between cryogenic hoses and vacuum jacketed hoses?
At first, cryogenic hoses and vacuum jacketed hoses may look like very similar products. They are both used to transfer cryogenic fluids including liquid nitrogen, carbon dioxide, argon, oxygen, and … Read more
Click to expand...
Yeah, but do they function from -200 degrees to 200 degrees of temperature in the exterior environment all while pumping very cold stuff from one location to the other?
 
Terry Mixon said:
Because I couldn't help myself, here is the Achenaar Antilles-Class 16,000,000-Ton Drop Jump Station that supports a modified version of my Hercules-Class 1,000,000-Ton Merchant Tender with J6 but no internal fuel storage for the jump drive. It is fed and services by a fleet of 10,000-ton fuel and cargo shuttles.

Whether this is good for Charted Space or not, that's not the point of this build. It was just to satisfy my need to make it. Use them if you like.

The incredibly expensive Achenaar Antilles Drop Jump Station is designed and built in the Core sector to support the network of J6 hubs the company has put in place to get a stranglehold trade there. In the bustling hubs where they operate, the traffic is usually heavy enough to warrant more than one of them to support the company's traffic. It services the specially design Hercules-Class 1,000,000 J6 merchant tenders that each can haul 4,500,000 tons of cargo in 50,000-ton pods.

The vessels have no on board jump fuel storage and are fed by the vast UNREP system on the station that can pump the required 3,300,000 tons of fuel aboard the ship in six minutes. The replaceable final segment of the piping is jettisoned and lost in the jump, but it is quickly replaced, and the station is ready to go again in 24 hours. It is serviced by a fleet of 10,000-ton fuel shuttles that are making continuous runs to the local gas giant (these stations are only in systems with gas giants because of their deep thirst for fuel) and 10,000 cargo shuttles to get the cargo off the pods and to the local economy when the cargo isn't merely being transshipped. As the round trip to the gas giant might take up to three weeks (depending on orbits and relative positions) there are a lot of these in use at any one time.

While all of these elements are expensive, they mean Achenaar Antilles can move far more cargo than their competitors and take it further. They are the undisputed giant in shipping in the Core sector.

View attachment 5076View attachment 5077


A Mongoose 2e design. The J6 Hercules-Class Merchant Tender is a civilian version of the Warmonger-Class Battle Tender build and run by the Achenaar Antilles Line in the Core sector. It has no jump fuel storage and is fed by special stations out beyond the jump limit (this is an external variant of the drop tank) that can feed it all the required fuel (3,300,000 tons) in six minutes so it can jump.

Their network of stations support this and lesser companies cannot match the amount of cargo they carry or the distance they can deliver it. This is an advantage they hold over their rivals. The vessel is designed to haul a mixture of 90 Type V 50,000-Ton cargo, fuel, low berth, and passenger pods (4,500,000 tons total, 4.5x the ship's tonnage). At need, it can also carry Type V 50,000-Ton Marine Transport pods and Navy Passenger Pods under contract.

View attachment 5078View attachment 5079
A Mongoose 2e design. This fuel shuttle can collect and purify 9,000 tons of fuel a day.


View attachment 5080

A Mongoose 2e design. This cargo shuttle can haul almost 9,500 tons of cargo a day.

View attachment 5081
Click to expand...
Use the same method but shrink it down. Think of using it for specific trade routes, such as the Heirate Route. J-4, 50,000 tons of cargo per ship. Tobia, Fist, Cordan, Tech-World, Tyokh. Tobia to Tyokh in 4 weeks. 8 weeks round-trip. A while back we tried to figure out the amount of traffic on this route, and it mentioned that one company did the vast majority of the trade and was in the process of building new ships. :P TL-15 to get all of the reductions for M and J Drives as well as the Powerplant.
 
Based on the conversation over using breakaway hulls as powered drop tanks on 1,000 ton freighters, the Freight Booster 500 is submitted for your lampooning and abuse. The 500 ton booster attaches to a 1000 ton freighter (It has a spare clamp that allows it to propel up to a 2000 ton freighter) and uses it's thrust, rated at 1500 tons to expedite the freighter reaching the jump point, then it transfers its fuel using breakaway rules into the freighter before separating and accelerating at 6G's from the freighter, at least until it is clear of the jump field.
1749416580802.png
1749416606458.png
 
Arkathan said:
Based on the conversation over using breakaway hulls as powered drop tanks on 1,000 ton freighters, the Freight Booster 500 is submitted for your lampooning and abuse. The 500 ton booster attaches to a 1000 ton freighter (It has a spare clamp that allows it to propel up to a 2000 ton freighter) and uses it's thrust, rated at 1500 tons to expedite the freighter reaching the jump point, then it transfers its fuel using breakaway rules into the freighter before separating and accelerating at 6G's from the freighter, at least until it is clear of the jump field.
View attachment 5085
View attachment 5086
Click to expand...
Give it a virtual crew or make it a drone. Then it can use its full acceleration. :P
 
Arkathan said:
Based on the conversation over using breakaway hulls as powered drop tanks on 1,000 ton freighters, the Freight Booster 500 is submitted for your lampooning and abuse. The 500 ton booster attaches to a 1000 ton freighter (It has a spare clamp that allows it to propel up to a 2000 ton freighter) and uses it's thrust, rated at 1500 tons to expedite the freighter reaching the jump point, then it transfers its fuel using breakaway rules into the freighter before separating and accelerating at 6G's from the freighter, at least until it is clear of the jump field.
View attachment 5085
View attachment 5086
Click to expand...
I did mine as a station because I wasn’t sure there was enough time to get clear. If it worked, a movable option would be the preferable method, I’m sure. I may make a robotic one later just for completeness.
 
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