Dragonfire Produces Traveler Space Ships

[Chronus]

Dang, Lucas, I'm sorry to see that the response to your product isn't what you were hoping for.

It appears that you have a really nice product there. However, I'm afraid rust is right. The ironic fact of the matter is, much of Traveller actually takes place outside of spaceships. You would never know it a few months ago, when all the Traveller boards were filled with angry posts regarding the original, incorrect deck plans. That's Traveller fandom for ya. :roll: Yeah, some campaigns are ship focused, but if you were to peruse most published adventures . . . well, you'd see rust's point.

I wish you and your company all the best in your enterprise. It's nice to see good, quality products are still being produced.

The technical term for the material is metallic engraving laminate. I will use that from now on.

I know Paladin meant well, but I would caution a second thought at this before proceeding. Is there a fair chance that many of your customers, upon reading about this fantastic "metallic engraving laminate", would open up their package only to say "Geee, it's just a piece of plastic . . ."?

I don't know how good your products are. If you're sure that the above scenario won't happen . . . then great! However, can you see my concern? Having customers who feel they've been duped by a cheesy marketing trick is a sure fire way to lose business.

Again, all the best to you.

 

[GhostWolf69]

Sorry about cracking some bad jokes there.
I was provoced by that price tag and said some nasty things.

I've calmed down now.

Good discussion from every one I think (except me I guess), both positive and negative.

/wolf

 

[Baron Sidur Haski]

Just a reminder. GW is a high ticket operation that makes a lot of money off "pieces of plastic".

I was just at a game store, and looking at the rather pricey "Combat Templates" set that they make, out of clear polycarbonate. This material does break down over time, the edges wear, and they can crack easy.
The require some care in long term handling.

 

[GhostWolf69]

Just a reminder. GW is a high ticket operation that makes a lot of money off "pieces of plastic".

Yeah but last time I played, I got a full game including rules, dice, rulers and 60+ Plasstic figures for my 100$ from GW.

It's been a while though... things might have changed.

...and granted, that starter set didn't actually "slow" your consumption rate... you had to spend alot more to have something worth competing with. That is true.

Unless you bought something really good from them... like "Battle of Five Armies". That was a complete game in itself.

/wolf

 

[tneva82]

Just a reminder. GW is a high ticket operation that makes a lot of money off "pieces of plastic".

Yeah but last time I played, I got a full game including rules, dice, rulers and 60+ Plasstic figures for my 100$ from GW.

Crappy rules and one pose models. Quality tends to cost. The models in question are less-detailed one pose models of reqular plastic models so no suprise they can afford to sell them cheaper(if they even make profit and don't do it playstation style. Sell at loss to sell at big profit other models. That's something this company can't do. Sell these at loss to gain profit in...What?).

 

[GhostWolf69]

Yeah I know. GW is working on a competely different scale so it's hugely unfair to compare them I guess.

But he started it. *points finger @ Haski*

/wolf

 

[Dragonfire]

I think one of the issues is that of perception.
GW and many other companies mass produce their products. They run off a couple of thousand and then sell them. Where as we make them when we get an order. So every piece is crafted when the customer asks for it. This way we don't have a lot of inventory piling up in a warehouse, and we can make the changes to the design on the fly. Like removing the labels or making at 15mm design.
It is just a different way of doing things. As companies are moving more and more to print on demand setups, I figured this was a good way to do production. It means higher overall prices, but lower risk.

Lucas Amodio
Dragonfire Laser Crafts

 

[GhostWolf69]

As companies are moving more and more to print on demand setups, I figured this was a good way to do production. It means higher overall prices, but lower risk.

I totally understand. Maybe I'm just sore cause I can't afford it? :wink:

/wolf

 

[Infojunky]

As companies are moving more and more to print on demand setups, I figured this was a good way to do production. It means higher overall prices, but lower risk.

I totally understand. Maybe I'm just sore cause I can't afford it? :wink:

Ahhh! sour grapes.... Now we see it.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Also worth pointing out that if this kind of technology did not exist, these plans would likely not have been produced at all - and then you would not even have the choice of whether to get them or not

 

[Emryys]

Choice is good

Since the process is print (laser) on demand, I think there may be a demand for personal ship plans.

It would be pretty cool to design a MGT killer ship and then have awesome deckplans... those would definately get used lots...

 

[far-trader]

Much of the previous comments are pretty much my take on it too. In summary:

The $30 tag for the small Scout ship is in my budget, the rest much less so, if I really liked the deckplans. As they are I'd not be interested in the ones currently up at any price because I'm not thrilled by the deckplans. I'd be using my own instead.

I especially dislike the re-proportioning you felt you had to do to the Trader. Why not simply make it in multiple pieces if the overall was too large for one sheet? And it's easier and cheaper to ship for you, and easier to carry and store for the user.

Heck, why not do that with any and all plans to minimize waste in your cutting? Even use the (apparently) large wastage you create now to print and cut extras. Keep the price the same but include more extras as a bonus. Like an Air/Raft to go with the Scout and cargo crates to go with the Trader. Feel free to send me my cut for this great idea (and I'm sure I have many more such obvious great ideas, such as...) Make them interlocking so they don't shift when joined, make them modular so that you can mix and match for some versions (like bases and such, not for ships of course, unless T5 is still going the modular route)

I thought the idea of "on demand production" was to lower costs? You know, less inventory to carry, no production runs to warehouse until ordered, no product returns for no sale, etc. Are you sure your markup is reasonable? As in you make more bottom line with a smaller margin and more sales than a wider margin and fewer (or no) sales.

This whole thing feels like you did no market research before jumping in. Or is this the market research phase?

I see your best shot along these lines being custom print deals. At those prices most people will want something much more artistic than the simple plans you're working from. Either their own designs or commissioned designs.

 

[Baron Sidur Haski]

I wasn't making a comparison between Dragonfire and GW at all. I would like to make that clear. I was more wondering what the perception and expectation of "cheapness" is in a product. Quality does indeed cost, but you can get quality results with other materials, too. Why all the illin' on plastic? (If we are talking minatures) wouldn't it be better to have a bunch of plastic ships that you could paint up just as fresh as one expensive metal one?

If anything, I get the impression that Dragonfire is a company that wants to work with the fans, which is what GW was before it got slick. It went from a fun "Make a Grav tank out of a Deodorant can" game to a "Space Marines look like this" game pretty quick. The work is fantastic to be sure, but there is something unnerving about watching a small kid roll his folks for Nurgle. It's not the content, or all that. Its that a good-sized Warhammer army is a rather large investment.

The other thing that occurred to me when I was looking at the snapshot poster, was that I don't think I've ever been in a game that had a scout ship used as drawn, interior wise. Groups and owners seem to trick out the interiors to suit. This may have already been mentioned, but I may have been too Nurgled to see it...

 

[Dragonfire]

OK. On the Free Trader, the only change that we made was to move two engine parts back 1" towards the rear of the vessel. This barely changed the angle on the hull, and was done with the permission of Mongoose as it didn't change the ship. This change dropped what we would have to charge for the ship by $25.

Second, for market research, we talked to customers that were wanting space ships, so we found a company with a good name, and reputation to use their plans for space ships, because we were hoping some of their fans as well would want their space ships. However, the primary market for these ships, are those that will be using them in space games. Not necessarily Traveller, but all space systems out there.

Third, Print on Demand products lower the overall cost of the products because the companies don't have to store large quantities in their warehouses, and don't have to buy large quantities to start with. Usually when you start making something to sell, you need to buy 1000+ of them. This means that if they don't sell you are stuck, and companies can go out of business from too many products that they paid for and can't move.

Fourth, we priced the ship based on the materials that we used to make it and the time it took to engraved it. We are not setting things up to price gouge anyone. Just charging what it costs. If you can't afford it, then that's ok.

Fifth, we can do custom deck plans, and are planning on doing that eventually. However, with the screaming that we are getting about the cost of our regular ships, I can't imagine the decibels that custom ships would cause. Let's go through the overview (imagine for the Free Trader - $40 for encoding the ship [we take the image of the deck plans and clean them up for our use), 1 full sheet of 1/8"plastic (24"x24") - $50, Engraving time for 1 full sheet - $60, plus shipping for a grand total of $150 for your custom ship. And that is assuming that it is the size of the Far Trader. Larger takes up more plastic and costs more. We can do custom ships on less thick plastic, which would lower the cost of the material by half, aka $25 per 24x24 sheet, but it still takes the same amount of time to engrave and cut. The engraving time is based on the amount of area covered by the engraving, and thereby the amount of time that it takes to engrave. More elaborate images don't matter to the cost, just area covered.

I hopes this helps to clarify some things.
Lucas Amodio
Dragonfire Laser Crafts

 

[far-trader]

Thanks for the follow-up Lucas, especially the ballpark estimate example for custom work, very helpful.

I didn't (or didn't mean to) imply any price gouging on your part. I had/have no idea what your markup was/is and only meant to suggest if you could cut a little it might move more product.

I didn't sit down to compare the changes to see how much it was, and know you had full permission, it just seemed a bad idea to me right from the start.

My remark on the POD cost issues was spurred by a remark you posted where I thought you said POD was more expensive. Perhaps I misunderstood.

I am a bit mystified myself by the uproar over the costs. I hope you didn't take my budgetary woes as another scream of "too freaking expensive"

What I meant was I'd plonk down $30 in a heartbeat for a Scout set (15mm is my scale of choice), if I liked the plan. I'd even go $50 for the Trader with little hesitation, again if I liked the plan. I spend more on that than a console game for about the same (or less) enjoyment. Heck $50 won't buy an evening out for a meal and movie anymore.

Compare it to an evening of fun playing Traveller for a group. Just have the group kick in a few bucks each one session and it's paid for. A group of 5 is only $10 each. You'd spend that on Pizza and Pop for a few hours of fullness and indigestion, why not on a game prop that will last through a campaign?

What I'm saying on Dragonfire's behalf is get a little perspective people.

I still think, for many reasons, a jigsaw approach with bonus pieces appropriate to the ship is the way to go. I'll see if I can throw an example together this week to show you what I mean.

EDIT: Sorry, for some reason I just didn't see that you did in fact do the Trader that way, a two piece jigsaw for the main deck. Never mind

 

[Dragonfire]

Dan;
Thanks for the comments.

I really appreciate the ones where you broke down what things cost in comparison. And believe me when I say I understand budgetary considerations. I think about them every time my wife and I look at a new game for the Wii.

I certainly wish more people could afford these ships, or at least didn't complain so much <grin>.

Lucas Amodio
Dragonfire Laser Crafts

 

[lastbesthope]

Just curious, how much would shipping be to the UK for the following purchase:

1) 15mm Scout
2) 15 mm Free Trader
3) 155 mm Scout and 15mm Free Trader together
4) 28mm Scout
5) 28mm Free Trader
6) 28mm Scout and 28mm Trader

Thanks

LBH

 

[Dragonfire]

1) $20
2) $20
3) $35
4) $30
5) $30
6) $45

These are estimated shipping prices as the shopping cart I have gets real time shipping information.
However, if the price that you are quoted on our website is outrageous (and sometimes the program fails, one order to Australia was $300+) please email us and we can handle it via e-mail.
Lucas Amodio
Dragonfire Laser Crafts

 

[Emryys]

I certainly wish more people could afford these ships, or at least didn't complain so much <grin>.

Sometimes it's difficult to understand value via the internet... that's why I like seeing products in person, then ordering online

Probably explains the difference in responses of the people who saw them in person...

 

[lastbesthope]

1) $20
2) $20
3) $35
4) $30
5) $30
6) $45

These are estimated shipping prices as the shopping cart I have gets real time shipping information.
However, if the price that you are quoted on our website is outrageous (and sometimes the program fails, one order to Australia was $300+) please email us and we can handle it via e-mail.
Lucas Amodio
Dragonfire Laser Crafts

Thanks, maybe once I get my end of year bonus.

Can you use dry wipe or water soluble markers on these boards and wipe off when you're done?

LBH