Does STR no longer play a role in melee

[Chumbly]

Does STR no longer play a role in melee

P71 Beta Core Rule Book

Melee Attack 2D + Melee (appropriate speciality) + DEX DM

In the old rule book(P 61) it was

The standard skill checks used in making an attack are:
Melee Attack = 2d6 + Melee (appropriate specialty) + Strength or Dexterity DM (attacker’s choice)

So .. being agile helps in a melee, but being built like King Kong gets your rear end whupped?

Chumbly :shock:

 

[Old timer]

Page 74 under melee attacks-The attacker adds their STR DM to the damage rolled for the weapon. So a STR DM now increases damage.

 

[Stainless]

This seems appropriate to me. Strong down't necessarily mean fast or accurate. But once the blow connects, that's when the extra grunt is noticeable.

 

[VenomousFiligree]

Whilst I agree in the main, the likes of a grapple attack (melee unarmed) should have the option of being STR based imo.

 

[grauenwolf]

This seems appropriate to me. Strong down't necessarily mean fast or accurate. But once the blow connects, that's when the extra grunt is noticeable.

No, but it could mean that you are just trying to power through the opponents parry rather than seeking an undefended line.

As someone who actually practices historic fencing, the whole Str vs Dex things is annoying. Strength directly translates into weapon control and speed. Dexterity doesn't help you attack faster in the slightest, but it helps you keep your balance and create the proper postures needed to impart a great deal of force into the blow.

But I realize that Mongoose isn't going to be interested in including a dissertation on why Str and Dex are backwards for sword play, so my vote is to continue allowing characters to use either and not stress too much about realism.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

But I realize that Mongoose isn't going to be interested in including a dissertation on why Str and Dex are backwards for sword play, so my vote is to continue allowing characters to use either and not stress too much about realism.

Traveller Rule Zero. Remember, the characteristics written down for the skills are not the only characteristics to use for the skills.

If you had narrated to me how your character was using the sword, the way you explained it's use here, I wouldn't stop you from using a different characteristic for your shill check.

 

[Loconius]

I think the choice to use STR or DEX should be explicitly written, like it was in first edition.

 

[nawara]

This seems appropriate to me. Strong down't necessarily mean fast or accurate. But once the blow connects, that's when the extra grunt is noticeable.

I disagree. When you're using a heavy weapon, Strength matters a lot more than hand-eye coordination in whether you hit. The blade moves faster, and strength is the primary factor in keeping it on target. Even in seemingly finesse-based combat (e.g., epee and saber fencing), a strong person can dominate the blade of a physically weaker opponent to great advantage.

I would recommend reverting back to attacker's choice of STR/DEX for melee to-hit, both out of realism concerns and game-fun concerns: DEX is already an objectively better stat than STR, and making it the dominant stat for melee as well as ranged just heightens that gap.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I would recommend reverting back to attacker's choice of STR/DEX for melee to-hit, both out of realism concerns and game-fun concerns: DEX is already an objectively better stat than STR, and making it the dominant stat for melee as well as ranged just heightens that gap.

So static damage value then, no matter which Characteristic Mod helped with hitting?

I prefer DEX controlling whether a swing hits a target or not. We are still at the "Did I connect with my foe or not?" phase afterall. STR might produce faster harder swings. But how well aimed are they?

I'll leave someone else to argue why DEX should be used for added damage after a hit is made.

Maybe each melee weapon can have its own Hit DM and Damage DM listed for DEX and STR use?

 

[grauenwolf]

I disagree. When you're using a heavy weapon, Strength matters a lot more than hand-eye coordination in whether you hit. The blade moves faster, and strength is the primary factor in keeping it on target. Even in seemingly finesse-based combat (e.g., epee and saber fencing), a strong person can dominate the blade of a physically weaker opponent to great advantage.

As someone who actually trains in real life with montantes (5 to 6 foot swords), I have to strongly argue in favor of dexterity. Yes you need a minimum amount of strength to use the weapon at all, but once it gets moving then you are working with momentum and balance far more than raw physical strength.

Though I do concede that's "real life" and the needs of the game are not necessarily the same.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I disagree. When you're using a heavy weapon, Strength matters a lot more than hand-eye coordination in whether you hit. The blade moves faster, and strength is the primary factor in keeping it on target. Even in seemingly finesse-based combat (e.g., epee and saber fencing), a strong person can dominate the blade of a physically weaker opponent to great advantage.

As someone who actually trains in real life with montantes (5 to 6 foot swords), I have to strongly argue in favor of dexterity. Yes you need a minimum amount of strength to use the weapon at all, but once it gets moving then you are working with momentum and balance far more than raw physical strength.

Though I do concede that's "real life" and the needs of the game are not necessarily the same.

For some weapons, I'd like to see "STR 7+ required to use this weapon." for example. I use such rules anyway even if they aren't listed. The same goes for doing pull-ups, or lifting your own weight above your head. Should be a STR requirement. And END will say for how many, and for how long.

 

[-Daniel-]

I would use care going down the simulation path too far. Next you will have to see how many melee attacks you can do based on your END or if you can assess your appointment enough to get them based on your INT.

I get how these things get going, you want to be "realistic" and for me, that is a noble way to think. It just isn't always best for the playability of a game. One of the most realistic games I have ever seen was Phoenix Command. It covered lots of stuff. But it was also the most unplayable game I have ever seen.

Combat, melee or gun, has to have a particular level of abstraction in order to remain playable. So mechanics are designed to at least feel right or at least have an outcome that feels right. But we all know in the end there will always be issues with the rules that are not "realistic".

In this case, the selection of DEX for the attack bonus and STR for the damage bonus. Is it perfect, no. But does it work? So far in the combats I have run it seems to play well and in the end, the outcome seems to work as well.

I think we should keep the DEX as the attack attribute and STR as the damage attribute. That is my .02 (ok maybe a little more that .02) :mrgreen:

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

My brother has the Aliens Adventure Game. I said "No" when he asked. Combat in my games are not drawn out like in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubpQE2IrG0. And I refuse to do boss fights of any kind. Things die pretty quick, with plenty of time to catch breath. Usually, injuries prevent any further weapon use before a player gets tired from fighting. That's been my "on-purpose" experience.

 

[-Daniel-]

Combat in my games are not drawn out like in [bad swordfight url]. <snip>
That's been my "on-purpose" experience.

I agree Shawn, I prefer fights that are parts of the story. As such I too have run games where I keep the fights from lasting all night. I understand your choosing to run things this way.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I also tend to run games no more than 3 sessions. So Travellers tend to either die horrifically, or tend to get through without any scratches from fight scenes. Some players want to just kill stuff. I don't know what sci-fi movies they've been watching. In a one-shot, anything goes pretty much.

 

[grauenwolf]

I would use care going down the simulation path too far. Next you will have to see how many melee attacks you can do based on your END

Um, we already have that. Check out the fatigue rules.

 

[grauenwolf]

In this case, the selection of DEX for the attack bonus and STR for the damage bonus. Is it perfect, no. But does it work?

That seems like it would be rather annoying. Right now your effect is added to the damage. So to do it your way, we would roll 2D6 + Dex DM + Melee to hit, then roll [weapon] + Effect + Str DM - Dex DM for damage.

 

[-Daniel-]

I would use care going down the simulation path too far. Next you will have to see how many melee attacks you can do based on your END

Um, we already have that. Check out the fatigue rules.

Not the same as what I was taking about, but as I was unclear in my original post, my bad.

In this case, the selection of DEX for the attack bonus and STR for the damage bonus. Is it perfect, no. But does it work?

That seems like it would be rather annoying. Right now your effect is added to the damage. So to do it your way, we would roll 2D6 + Dex DM + Melee to hit, then roll [weapon] + Effect + Str DM - Dex DM for damage.

Not my way, the way it is in the rules as they are written now. And you are double counting things. It is 2d6+DEX to hit and DMG is Wpn +STR +Effect. Not sure where you are getting the extra stuff from. I am saying what is in the rules works in my game so far, but others might have a different point of view.

 

[grauenwolf]

Not my way, the way it is in the rules as they are written now. And you are double counting things. It is 2d6+DEX to hit and DMG is Wpn +STR +Effect. Not sure where you are getting the extra stuff from. I am saying what is in the rules works in my game so far, but others might have a different point of view.

The Dex DM is part of the attack roll and thus part of the effect. So unless you subtract it back out, you'll be adding both Dex DM and Str DM to the damage roll.

 

[-Daniel-]

The Dex DM is part of the attack roll and thus part of the effect. So unless you subtract it back out, you'll be adding both Dex DM and Str DM to the damage roll.

Ok, I understand the point you are sharing, but isn't that by design based on the rules as written right now? Wasn't that their intent? If not, then they have a problem. I would imagine though this will always be a possible issue regardless of what attribute you elect to use for your "to hit" attribute.