Ok im having and issue, my plasma volleys are way too easy to take out. My question is do i roll the mutli hit amount before they start defensive fire or after. cause it makes ya cry when 12 attack dice of plasma vanish without doing anything. i lost my game against my son, 1 because his IDF was making my volleys vanish and 2 he keeped rolling 6's on torps.
does anyone else feel plasma's are too easy to kill.
- Thread starter archon96
- Start date
No, I don't think its too easy. IDF should only work 50% of the time when people use it, and then you just target the ships that used the order successfully instead of the ships that didnt.
Defensive fire reduces the AD of the plasma, then you roll multi-hit for all the AD that are left after defensive fire.
Defensive fire reduces the AD of the plasma, then you roll multi-hit for all the AD that are left after defensive fire.
I haven't noticed plasma as being terribly easy to kill. To be sure, you can't snipe with plasmas and must unload them on a limited number of targets in a few giant honking salvos
If you know a big plasma strike is coming and if you can get enough ships to pass their CQ for IDF, it can whittle them down but at the cost of rendering your phaser offense virtually nil. Against a full plasma alpha strike, a certain number will get through in most cases and with their target having expended most phaser 1's that are in arc in the process, the ship is still subject to the plasma users phasers and unable to respond except with photons or disruptors.
If you know a big plasma strike is coming and if you can get enough ships to pass their CQ for IDF, it can whittle them down but at the cost of rendering your phaser offense virtually nil. Against a full plasma alpha strike, a certain number will get through in most cases and with their target having expended most phaser 1's that are in arc in the process, the ship is still subject to the plasma users phasers and unable to respond except with photons or disruptors.
Everyone who got targeted by the Novahawk at the Birmingham Expo demo games disagrees with you.
How big are the plasma volleys you are getting in on one ship?
What ships are you using?
Also, you can't help luck, and your son coming out with box cars a lot of the time is simply the dice gods helping him as he's a less experienced player.
I wouldn't worry, as there've been threads saying photons are too weak and that disruptors are too weak.
With the old series Romulan ships they are eggshells armed with hammers, and I would personally go with a mix of Battlehawks, Snipes and King Eagles if you are going old school. Snipes are Agile and have 7 dice of plasmas, Battlehawks have 6 dice of plasmas (but compared to the War Eagle can fire 4 phaser-1s the turn they decloak) and King Eagles have 11 dice of plasmas and give initiative +1 (which helps you win the initiative and line up attack runs to combine with decloaking).
Don't expect 1 plasma salvo to destroy a Federation Constitution of whatever in one go, but a King Eagle salvo has a pretty decent chance to strip all the shields (even if he intercepts 6 dice with phasers) and you then have 4 phaser-1s to rack up crits.
If you have some Klingon hulls or some Romulan Hawk ships I would throw them into the mix. The KC9R has 19 dice of plasmas and anything it targets is just going to cease to exist. The Sparrowhawk and KR cruisers are both great fun, and by the time you get into Firehawks and the command versions of them you are into what are basically battlecruisers, with 12 dice of plasmas, good shields and good all round phasers.
If you post more details of your games we can give more specific advice.
How big are the plasma volleys you are getting in on one ship?
What ships are you using?
Also, you can't help luck, and your son coming out with box cars a lot of the time is simply the dice gods helping him as he's a less experienced player.
I wouldn't worry, as there've been threads saying photons are too weak and that disruptors are too weak.
With the old series Romulan ships they are eggshells armed with hammers, and I would personally go with a mix of Battlehawks, Snipes and King Eagles if you are going old school. Snipes are Agile and have 7 dice of plasmas, Battlehawks have 6 dice of plasmas (but compared to the War Eagle can fire 4 phaser-1s the turn they decloak) and King Eagles have 11 dice of plasmas and give initiative +1 (which helps you win the initiative and line up attack runs to combine with decloaking).
Don't expect 1 plasma salvo to destroy a Federation Constitution of whatever in one go, but a King Eagle salvo has a pretty decent chance to strip all the shields (even if he intercepts 6 dice with phasers) and you then have 4 phaser-1s to rack up crits.
If you have some Klingon hulls or some Romulan Hawk ships I would throw them into the mix. The KC9R has 19 dice of plasmas and anything it targets is just going to cease to exist. The Sparrowhawk and KR cruisers are both great fun, and by the time you get into Firehawks and the command versions of them you are into what are basically battlecruisers, with 12 dice of plasmas, good shields and good all round phasers.
If you post more details of your games we can give more specific advice.
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
I still twitch at the memory of all the plasma death I had to face at the tourney. It was evil. Pure evil :|
(On a serious note, I do accept that as a new player I wasn't protecting myself against the plasma as well as I could, but even taking that into account I find it hard to think of plasma as underpowered...)
(On a serious note, I do accept that as a new player I wasn't protecting myself against the plasma as well as I could, but even taking that into account I find it hard to think of plasma as underpowered...)
nekomata fuyu said:
If you were up against the guy with two KC9Rs then I'm not sure what you could have done. You're up against so much plasma on such big ships that are as maneuverable as Federation cruisers, that have double front shields and unless you've got a frigate wolf pack to run into a side or rear arc and knock the shields down so you can start pounding them with photons it's hard to beat them. Especially at 1000 points where you'd just about fit in a wolfpack and cruiser squadron. I think a KRC and 2 KC9R is the most brutal tournament fleet I could come up with off the top of my head.
With +2 initiative (1 for being Romulan, 1 for command ship) he could line up and vapourise a ship, take the fire phasers only energy drain to reload his torps and still move 12" and only fire 8 phaser-1s forward and 4 to the aft and sides
Skullduggery
Mongoose
I've seen cruisers gutted by plasmas when IDF rolls fail also.
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
Of course I feel that Gorn plasmas should be more powerful. After all we are the Uber Plasma race. Our plasmas should one shot Dreadnaughts, our destroyers should be able to crush cruisers with ease 
:wink:
However back to the topic. Yes and No.
There have been several examples recently of IDF rolls going very odd and a lot more than 50% making it. These are currently statistical anomalies and with ships having average CQ half of any IDFs should work.
Its painful to watch whole waves pf plasma’s cut down to nothing when 6 out of 8 ships makes an IDF roll, just think of how much worst it can become when campaigns have been underway for a while and people have ships with higher crew levels.
Plasmas in ACTA are powerful and relatively rapid fire. A Gorn cruiser throwing 12AD is going to hurt most people unless they have a lot of allies. The trick is to get as much plasma as possible on target in one go. Yes its not like SFB/FC where having an incoming plasma R was panic inducing because you had 50 points of flaming death heading for you. :shock:
Still and all. If your enemy has two thirds of his fleet just make IDFs, how about you don’t fire this turn. Or just throw out some plasmas to soak up Phaser fire, if you are close enough for plasma salvo’s you are close enough to charge and Gorn Anchor next turn. Then see if he IDFs his entire fleet twice in a row. (If he does distract him and steal his dice). IDFs are declared when a ship activates so you should have an idea of how many of his ships are doing it.
Here is a question. At what point is the IDF and tractor anchor for that matter rolled, at the point it is declared or when it becomes used. For example if a ship declares IDF but doesn't roll till the shooting phase you have no idea how many make it, on the other hand a Gorn anchor that rolls as soon as your ship gets in range tells you if the target is trapped and you can then move others to target the victim.
It was for this reason that I like the idea to make each Plasma dice take two Phaser damage to destroy but count the kill zones (see if you can find Barry’s original suggestion). Round up as normal for a salvo but while this doesn’t change the targets defences in any way it does stop ships half way across the board cutting down the plasmas with such ease.
Being an old school (and Old) SFB type ships fired at plasmas that passed close by them, firing even Phaser 1s at a plasma 18 hexes/inches away did nothing. In ACTA-SF Phaser 1s at 18 inches are as effective against plasmas as those at one inch. The only tactical consideration becomes keeping a potential target in the best arc as range is irrelevant. On the other hand if you need to keep inside the kill zone you need to plan and deploy more carefully. That squadron of destroyers flanking the enemy may make IDF rolls but since they are so far away they do little to the plasmas.
I don’t think plasma’s are underpowered or overpowered. What I think is that the counter to them requires no tactics and just a few dice rolls. Every ship in range rolls IDF on the Gorn attack turn because a ship at maximum Phaser range is just as effective as one at point blank.
I don’t mind having my plasma wave cut down by tactics, it’s a space combat tactic game after all. If an enemy concentrates his ships just at the point I have my best shot then scatters afterwards that’s good tactics. Simply Phasering down plasmas from all over the map is hardly tactical, its just the luck of the dice. :roll:
:wink: However back to the topic. Yes and No.
There have been several examples recently of IDF rolls going very odd and a lot more than 50% making it. These are currently statistical anomalies and with ships having average CQ half of any IDFs should work.
Its painful to watch whole waves pf plasma’s cut down to nothing when 6 out of 8 ships makes an IDF roll, just think of how much worst it can become when campaigns have been underway for a while and people have ships with higher crew levels.
Plasmas in ACTA are powerful and relatively rapid fire. A Gorn cruiser throwing 12AD is going to hurt most people unless they have a lot of allies. The trick is to get as much plasma as possible on target in one go. Yes its not like SFB/FC where having an incoming plasma R was panic inducing because you had 50 points of flaming death heading for you. :shock:
Still and all. If your enemy has two thirds of his fleet just make IDFs, how about you don’t fire this turn. Or just throw out some plasmas to soak up Phaser fire, if you are close enough for plasma salvo’s you are close enough to charge and Gorn Anchor next turn. Then see if he IDFs his entire fleet twice in a row. (If he does distract him and steal his dice). IDFs are declared when a ship activates so you should have an idea of how many of his ships are doing it.
Here is a question. At what point is the IDF and tractor anchor for that matter rolled, at the point it is declared or when it becomes used. For example if a ship declares IDF but doesn't roll till the shooting phase you have no idea how many make it, on the other hand a Gorn anchor that rolls as soon as your ship gets in range tells you if the target is trapped and you can then move others to target the victim.
It was for this reason that I like the idea to make each Plasma dice take two Phaser damage to destroy but count the kill zones (see if you can find Barry’s original suggestion). Round up as normal for a salvo but while this doesn’t change the targets defences in any way it does stop ships half way across the board cutting down the plasmas with such ease.
Being an old school (and Old) SFB type ships fired at plasmas that passed close by them, firing even Phaser 1s at a plasma 18 hexes/inches away did nothing. In ACTA-SF Phaser 1s at 18 inches are as effective against plasmas as those at one inch. The only tactical consideration becomes keeping a potential target in the best arc as range is irrelevant. On the other hand if you need to keep inside the kill zone you need to plan and deploy more carefully. That squadron of destroyers flanking the enemy may make IDF rolls but since they are so far away they do little to the plasmas.
I don’t think plasma’s are underpowered or overpowered. What I think is that the counter to them requires no tactics and just a few dice rolls. Every ship in range rolls IDF on the Gorn attack turn because a ship at maximum Phaser range is just as effective as one at point blank.
I don’t mind having my plasma wave cut down by tactics, it’s a space combat tactic game after all. If an enemy concentrates his ships just at the point I have my best shot then scatters afterwards that’s good tactics. Simply Phasering down plasmas from all over the map is hardly tactical, its just the luck of the dice. :roll:
Clanger
Mongoose
Ben2, nekomata fyu was facing myself in the Tourney and I had what I considered a balanced Romulan fleet. I even pointed out in the game that he could use IDF with his ships when he was not doing it early in the game as well which would have hampered myself.
1 Battle Hawk
1 SkyHawk
3 SparrowHawks
1 Nova Hawk
Drones are easier to defend against as you have Evasion, Anti-Drone, Drones (on IDF), Phaser's and Tractor Beams.
Plasmas only have Evasion and Phasers to worry about.
I do not think that Plasma's are underpowered or overpowered at all. They are just about right.
1 Battle Hawk
1 SkyHawk
3 SparrowHawks
1 Nova Hawk
Drones are easier to defend against as you have Evasion, Anti-Drone, Drones (on IDF), Phaser's and Tractor Beams.
Plasmas only have Evasion and Phasers to worry about.
I do not think that Plasma's are underpowered or overpowered at all. They are just about right.
Captain Jonah said:
Don't get concerned about 'examples', Not everyone posts their game where the enemy failed his IDF and got creamed as a result.
That is a fair point, whilst good crews can nobble anyones fire with Evasive Manouvering, IDF has no particular penalties (as in move slow/power drain etc). That maks plasma empires the most heavily affected by CQ. Against high crew quality they suffer. On the other hand, plasma is extra effective against poor crews. I haven't read the ACTA campaign rules much, do new ships start out as green/poor?
Drones are also affected, but they are not as bad as plasma, drones are no ones sole heavy weapon, and cannot be so readily used to overwhelm a single target.
Not really true, beyond 9" they miss twice as often.
storeylf said:
Or rather they post extreme results of whether they are arquing "plasma's are too good/too bad". Human mind tends to notice the extremes lot more easily.
(for example I have bemoaded a lot about my leadership rolls but I know it's just some unlucky games that stick so well. I just don't remember all the LD10 rolls I have passed. But couple failures at critical point stick like a sore thumb creating this "my leadership rolls positively SUCK" image).
Randomly. 1/12 with 2 or 5, 1/2 with 3 and 1/3 with 4 so most begin green, some military grade and tiny amount as both trainee's and veterans.
Captain Jonah said:
Ask and ye shall receive: Barry's original proposal.
quote
Take the defensive fire against each plasma, one volley at a time. So, add up all the phasers on a single plasma from a single ship. For each two points of phaser damage done, reduce the plasma by one die rolled. Phaser outside the kill zone are going to have a harder time damaging plasmas. Odd points of damage don't affect plasma and don't accumulate between volleys.
Example... Ship A takes a hit from a Plasma S doing 4 dice of damage. Ship A fires 2 phaser 3s at the plasma one of which hits. Since that phaser by definition in the kill zone, the plasma is reduced to 3 dice of damage. Ship B at range of 6 fires two more phaser 3s at the plasma, one of which hits. However, since it is outside of the kill zone, it only does 1 point of damage, which is then dropped. Ship C at a range of 8 fires and hits with three phaser 2s at the plasma. again, it's outside of the kill zone, so 3 points of damage are done to the plasma reducing it by 1 die of damage. However the odd point of damage from Ship B and Ship C are not combined but are instead lost. Ship A takes two dice of plasma damage.
What this will do, is that a ship defending itself with it's own phasers will do so quite well, however, a ship using IDF to defend another ship may have a much harder time having any effect.
Example: A D5W defends itself against 6AD of plasma with 6 Phaser-1 under the current system. A nearby ship on IDF adds 2 phaser-1s to the defense.
5/6ths of the D5W's phaser-1s hit, reducing the AD to 1. 2 phasers fire from a nearby ship, with one hitting and reducing the AD to zero.
Under the new system, the D5W scores 5 of 6 hits, all of which are in kill zone (2 pts each) and reduce the plasma to 1AD. However, the nearby ship is out of kill zone, and scores only one hit, which is not enough to reduce the last AD of plasma...which hits the D5W.
I suspect the main result of such a change will be to encourage any ships using IDF to remain within kill zone range of each other so they can be most effective. I'm not sure it'll make a major difference, but we'll see.
unquote
Trenchbucket
Mongoose
With Plasma's there is one of two things that will happen, you will even drain alot of phaser fire from enemy fleet, or do alot of damage.
As the guy with the two KR9C's i know what i am talking about lmao, though i would say they are over powere din one breath the fact you must reload them is a big weakness(like photons). Tactics will be formulated to beat them and in fact i have beaten them in a few games.
The IDF is a good tactic against them though with average 50% of ships able to do it at anyone time and one of those will proberly take the plasma hit i.e. in a fleet of 8 ships 4 will prob IDF with one taking the hit, with average federation phasers being 6 thats 24 potiential IDF shots with phaser-1's which will be about 700-800 points of his fleet while your one dreadnought only costs 305-335 with 15-19 plasma dice and thats without phasers. But from then on you have 1 turn where you have to reload and get hammered by drones and other fire.
Again its all about buying smart and tactics, yes some fleets are better at slugging matches, just dont slug with them!
And remember reloading mean no shield recharging etc
"Fire all phasers at that dreadnought ship,, what do you mean we are in a shuttlecraft? Just do it!"
As the guy with the two KR9C's i know what i am talking about lmao, though i would say they are over powere din one breath the fact you must reload them is a big weakness(like photons). Tactics will be formulated to beat them and in fact i have beaten them in a few games.
The IDF is a good tactic against them though with average 50% of ships able to do it at anyone time and one of those will proberly take the plasma hit i.e. in a fleet of 8 ships 4 will prob IDF with one taking the hit, with average federation phasers being 6 thats 24 potiential IDF shots with phaser-1's which will be about 700-800 points of his fleet while your one dreadnought only costs 305-335 with 15-19 plasma dice and thats without phasers. But from then on you have 1 turn where you have to reload and get hammered by drones and other fire.
Again its all about buying smart and tactics, yes some fleets are better at slugging matches, just dont slug with them!
And remember reloading mean no shield recharging etc
"Fire all phasers at that dreadnought ship,, what do you mean we are in a shuttlecraft? Just do it!"
Unlike the drones which needed a quick fix for balance purposes, defensive fire against plasma is something that, if a change is needed, probably should wait for all the initial races to get into the supply chain, get painted and played a lot.
By the start of 2013, assuming the Gorn and Kzinti are out and available this summer, we should have a critical mass of games played, gamers involved and tournament results to look at and ideally, the body of experience with the game and its' interactions will be such that any adjustments will avoid the law of unintended consequences.
By the start of 2013, assuming the Gorn and Kzinti are out and available this summer, we should have a critical mass of games played, gamers involved and tournament results to look at and ideally, the body of experience with the game and its' interactions will be such that any adjustments will avoid the law of unintended consequences.
logical_proof
Mongoose
A simpler fix to plasma is to make plasma immune to the accurate trait. Effectively making it take two phasers for every one AD reduced with a 50/50 shot. I have won with plasma whenever someone didn't defend well against it, hoping to use their phasers offensively, but as soon as my opponent decides that he needs to do something to protect himself and starts using phasers plasma loses because it is very difficult to miss with those super accurate phasers.
So instead of worrying about hitting with an odd or even number of phasers just make them immune to the accurate trait.
So instead of worrying about hitting with an odd or even number of phasers just make them immune to the accurate trait.
