Dodging and Diving for Cover

[grauenwolf]

I don't think dodging should apply to gunfire. If you don't have any sort of cover to dive behind, it is too late to try to dodge a bullet.

Also, I think the diving for cover section should have some examples of the armor bonus different types of cover offer.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Aren't the dodge and the gun shot happening at once? Maybe a different verb is needed for dodge in the case of bullets. And if a character doesn't see a guy about to shoot him, or knows there's a guy about to shoot him, dodging won't be a choice.

 

[Nerhesi]

Agreed with Shawn.

Gents - this isn't dodging a bullet, this evading the aim. If you are lined up and the trigger is pressed then yes you'll be hit - that is reality. Its about making sure you're not giving your target an easy shot. People do have different skill levels at everything - some are more nimble, some are more level headed, etc..

Also, in general, more options and more meaningful skills are good. I'm sure the game can be reduced to nothing more than intelligent weapons/ammo and ships shooting at each other, with no reliance on skills - just the technology you have at hand, but then that would be as exciting would it...

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

And a character can still miss a perfectly aimed at target that isn't dodging his gun fire. Things can go both ways it seems.

 

[grauenwolf]

To think of it another way, you aren't dodging a single bullet. You are ducking and weaving to make it hard for someone to draw a bead on you in the first place. And that's going to apply regardless if you see the attacker or not, and equally to all attackers.

As for skills, I think they should play into diving for cover. Someone who is fast and agile should be able to duck behind a crate much quicker than an overweight accountant.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

To think of it another way, you aren't dodging a single bullet. You are ducking and weaving to make it hard for someone to draw a bead on you in the first place. And that's going to apply regardless if you see the attacker or not, and equally to all attackers.

Very true. For those using the 6-second combat round rules, that is exactly what's going on in those 6 seconds.

As for skills, I think they should play into diving for cover. Someone who is fast and agile should be able to duck behind a crate much quicker than an overweight accountant.

Yes. Allows for more role-playing of action scenes with players narrating their moves, and referees asking for skill checks.

 

[GuernseyMan]

Unfortunately the rules, as written, don't allow a dodge (or evade) unless you have a high Dex or Athletics (Dex) skill as we found out.

This made the dodging option a complete non-starter for half of my players. They can dodge, with no benefit, and have a DM-1 for their next action.

And what happened to the initiative penalty for reactions? I really liked that rule, it livened combat up.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Unfortunately the rules, as written, don't allow a dodge (or evade) unless you have a high Dex or Athletics (Dex) skill as we found out.

Don't allow a dodge? Or don't allow a winning roll?

 

[Nerhesi]

Unfortunately the rules, as written, don't allow a dodge (or evade) unless you have a high Dex or Athletics (Dex) skill as we found out.

This made the dodging option a complete non-starter for half of my players. They can dodge, with no benefit, and have a DM-1 for their next action.

And what happened to the initiative penalty for reactions? I really liked that rule, it livened combat up.

The reactions actually slowed down combat a lot for both personal and starship scale for us.

Keep in mind, that perhaps someone without a dex bonus, or atheletics(dex) should probably be terrible at dodging. This literally someone who is not agile, nor do they have any trained eye-hand coordination, balance etc... this is the guy that is mostly likey to fall down on his face should he try to dodge..

 

[GuernseyMan]

The reactions actually slowed down combat a lot for both personal and starship scale for us.

We used tokens to track reactions. "-2 Init" on one side and "-1 DM" on the other side. When you react take a token "Init" side up. When it gets to your initiative if you have any "Init" tokens turn them over and restate you initiative. If you have no "Init" tokens then use the "-1 DM" side to modify your rolls. Chuck them back in the middle after your turn.

I'm a great believer in using tokens/chips/stones etc to track effects. You can also use a hasten +2 token to show when you are hastening. If you, as a GM, want simultaneous hastening for all players and NPCS then just have a token with "normal" on one side and "hasten" on the other. Each player slaps his/her token on the table keeping it covered then reveals all at the same time.

I prefer to find ways of speeding up play whilst keeping the rules rather than just omitting them.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I was 'this' close to taking Dodging out during the internal playtesting. Happy to hear opinions.

 

[Stainless]

Dodging has along history in RPG mechanics so I suspect there would be some resistance to its withdrawal. Having said that, if you imagine being caught out in the open and someone is pointing a gun at you, you'd probably "Dive for cover" even if that was just the ground ("hit the dirt"!). If you were near cover you'd try to duck back into cover to fully "hide" from the shot. I suppose if there was no cover in sight and you didn't favour your chances just hitting the dirt, you might also "duck and weave" which is "dodging" by any other name.

For me, I'd leave it.

 

[Nerhesi]

Changing the name would be fine, to duck and weave or evade or anything like that. The idea behind dodging is:

(1) Hitting a stationary target is significant easier than hitting one that is actively evading.
(2) People don't all evade equally.

Therefore, there exists a need a to simulate that effect.

And from a game-design perspective, as others have stated, the more effect a player and their character can have, the better. We need to avoid the "sorry, nothin you can do, you're hit".

This was a big big issue in a very similar (mechanically) game to Mongoose Traveller, Decipher Lord of the Rings (a game I love). It became mechanically unplayable (sometimes right after chargen) because the 2d6+characteristic+skill+misc mod grew super fast compared to very little defensive modifiers. Rolls became trivial.

In Mongoose, coming out with a conservative +1 Dex DM and 2 in gun combat, a player can very quickly get a skill-wire, a sighting aid. You're at a +6 to hit (aiming) for a few hundred meter range with a gauss rifle, with the only mod being a -2 for cover.

Given a few sessions, an augment later, and some very easy training, you're at Gun Combat 4, a dex mod of +2 (either good chargen or augments), and every shot goes from very easy, to trivial no matter what your target is doing or how far it is!

Anyways - the 2d6 system is elegant and one of my favourites. It just requires careful design or else rolling becomes trivial and the challenge is gone (and when people start shooting at you, there is really nothing you can do either)

Sam W

 

[GuernseyMan]

I agree with the ease with which you can kill someone with an even half-decent bonus. That is part of the charm of all the versions of Traveller.

I may well houserule that Dodge allows a -1 to the attack plus the defender's DEX bonus or Athletics(Agility). This will allow most characters to get something from trying do dodge with the truly gifted getting a larger bonus. Any GM bonuses for being near cover can also apply.

-1 DM on the next roll as a penalty works for me. It penalises all characters the same amount.

I will also keep the -2 to initiative for the next action. With my tokens (already made!) it is easy to keep track of and, in my opinion, the fluid, changing initiative really adds to the game.

In a hack and slash game like D&D where you're just tracking hit points initiative doesn't really matter. With Traveller virtually every shot can put someone down so the tactics of "initiative manipulation" becomes vital. Our group finds that extra dynamic very enjoyable. The more things that can affect initiative the better. (inluding bulky weapons/heft/recoil)

 

[Nerhesi]

I agree with the ease with which you can kill someone with an even half-decent bonus. That is part of the charm of all the versions of Traveller.

I like your house rule, although I don't consider trivial or superfluous mechanics a charm, but a flaw

May as well play a diceless RPG if die-rolling becomes a forgone conclusion. You may even want to remove that military/mercenary game option from the main rulebook! Unless you want to play mercs/military beating up on the incompetent/under equipped! That would be ok

 

[GuernseyMan]

I probably didn't think through that wording. My intention was that I'm happy for any shot to kill/disable a character rather than just the hit point attrition of certain other games. I'm not happy with intrinsic (character based) bonuses to be so high that any shot is a foregone conclusion.

Even an overall +4 is pushing it (+2 stat, +2 skill) which is the highest that any of my players managed in the first character generation.

If players play tactically and get involve in cover/aiming/leadership/tactics etc then they should be rewarded with an exceedingly good chance of survival and putting down the enemy. Likewise, in my opinion, sloppy play should be punished, not by the GM arbitrarily but by the system.

The charm of Traveller, for our group, is the brutality of combat. There is always a consideration of whether fighting is the best option.

 

[Nerhesi]

I probably didn't think through that wording. My intention was that I'm happy for any shot to kill/disable a character rather than just the hit point attrition of certain other games. I'm not happy with intrinsic (character based) bonuses to be so high that any shot is a foregone conclusion.

Even an overall +4 is pushing it (+2 stat, +2 skill) which is the highest that any of my players managed in the first character generation.

If players play tactically and get involve in cover/aiming/leadership/tactics etc then they should be rewarded with an exceedingly good chance of survival and putting down the enemy. Likewise, in my opinion, sloppy play should be punished, not by the GM arbitrarily but by the system.

The charm of Traveller, for our group, is the brutality of combat. There is always a consideration of whether fighting is the best option.

Agreed on every point. The brutality in personal combat I great and I find a bit more pseudo realistic. No slugging away at HP.

 

[Dracous]

Using the dex bonus in dodge calculations means that low dex characters are easier to hit.... well... not really I suppose, because they will choose not to dodge.

But I think this is an ideal opportunity for simplifying with the bane/boon mechanic. Dodging places a bane on the shooter, and a bane on all checks for the dodger until the end of their next round.

If they dodge another attack before their next turn, never mind, they have the bane already so they get to keep dodging for free.

What do you guys think?

 

[Nerhesi]

Using the dex bonus in dodge calculations means that low dex characters are easier to hit.... well... not really I suppose, because they will choose not to dodge.

But I think this is an ideal opportunity for simplifying with the bane/boon mechanic. Dodging places a bane on the shooter, and a bane on all checks for the dodger until the end of their next round.

If they dodge another attack before their next turn, never mind, they have the bane already so they get to keep dodging for free.

What do you guys think?

Thats how it was before - some of us asked for it to be changed. Banes and Boons don't do anything if there aren't enough penalties. Bane and boons are also completely random and do not showcase a player's skill at all.

If you remove the dodge penalty and replace with bane/boon you have the following:

-2 for cover (at best), vs +5 to a +10 to be hit. (+5 from chargen basic aimed shot from a skill 2 character)

Rolling 3d6 pick the two lowest, with a +3 or +5 to hit is either near trivial or trivial. The second you have a slightly more skilled gunman then it wont even matter what is rolled.

No - Banes and Boons work on a d20 system due to a huge range and MASSIVE negative and positive modifiers that are balancing out. Banes and boons do not work in seclusion, infact, they do absolutely nothing when a player has a significant positive or negative modifier. A significant positive modifier is very easily attainable in traveler hence why you'll see on that other big thread, the ask to make Banes/Boons a separate, GM-used penalty or bonus, but not a part of the basic rules/mods.

Lets make sure folks we are having a hand in creating a game that is mechanically sound, and not one that has us all excited, then we find ourselves in situations where are players are on the receiving end of trivial rolls all the time. Resulting in in massive house-rules and golden rules - may as well just not provide the base mechanics if the golden rule becomes the norm.

 

[Dracous]

In which case, if we are looking to showcase the players skill they should get do an opposed Dex or Acrobatics roll as a reaction, and get the opportunity to completely evade getting hit on success.

I'd still look for simplification for a successful dodge result. As an example, once the dodge has successfully occurred remove the players significant action from their next turn (they can't shoot, but can do a minor action). There needs to be something to simulate they are recovering from that "Oh fudge!" moment.