Do MGT Traveller ships have anti-gravity for lift?

[fusor]

I doubt that more than 50% of all GGs within 500 Pc from Sol have at least one moon with large masses of easily accessible water or water ice that can be mined for hydrogen. How do you suggest that we test that hypothesis (with current technology)?

You're not making a hypothesis, you're just making a baseless claim with no reasoning behind it at all (plus, you can't test a negative anyway). You're saying "I think everything we know about how planets form is wrong and doesn't apply anywhere else, so I'm coming up with my own idea and haha you can't prove it wrong". And you're also displaying how ignorant you are about science too.

Almost every moon in the outer solar system (except Io) has water ice covering it in vast amounts. Their entire surfaces (and in some cases the entire moon) are made of ice, so there's plenty of "large masses" of it. While some may have nitrogen or methane ices as well, the "bedrock" is still water ice. Titan is covered in hydrocarbons that can be used for fuel too (you only need something containing hydrogen - methane, ammonia, hydrocarbons would work just as well as water or water ice). And then there's ring system full of ices. And KBOs. And Oort Cloud objects. And comets. Ice is EVERYWHERE. And there is no reason whatsoever to believe that this is unique to our own solar system.

I guarantee you that the vast majority of systems with gas giants in the outer zone will have some icy moons (probably many of them). I know this because we know how planets form, we know that moons form around them, and we know that ices will form where it's cold enough.

So either you can do some basic research and go learn something about how planets and moons form and how that applies everywhere since it's basic physics, or you can sit there and insist that you're right and ignore everything we know and claim that everyone else is wrong.

 

[rust2]

Which for me at least is kind of frustrating. I like open systems, but there's a limit to how much loosey-goosey you should expect. The whole point in purchasing a set of rules is to have a pre-defined universe to game in.

I do not see this as a real problem. As I understand it, Traveller was not only written to cover one specific universe, the Third Imperium. The rules are also intended to enable people to create other and quite different settings. But even within the Third Imperium there could well be alien species which use starships without contragrav technology. In the end we can get either a certain artistic liberty for the interpretation of the rules as they are or a lot more rules to cover all the possibilities of all the settings Traveller can be used for.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Which for me at least is kind of frustrating. I like open systems, but there's a limit to how much loosey-goosey you should expect. The whole point in purchasing a set of rules is to have a pre-defined universe to game in.

I do not see this as a real problem. As I understand it, Traveller was not only written to cover one specific universe, the Third Imperium. The rules are also intended to enable people to create other and quite different settings. But even within the Third Imperium there could well be alien species which use starships without contragrav technology. In the end we can get either a certain artistic liberty for the interpretation of the rules as they are or a lot more rules to cover all the possibilities of all the settings Traveller can be used for.

I understand exactly what phavoc is saying, and I agree with him. But I have also resigned myself with that MgT2 is not a very detailed system, but leaves a lot room for interpretation.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I doubt that more than 50% of all GGs within 500 Pc from Sol have at least one moon with large masses of easily accessible water or water ice that can be mined for hydrogen. How do you suggest that we test that hypothesis (with current technology)?

You're not making a hypothesis, you're just making a baseless claim with no reasoning behind it at all (plus, you can't test a negative anyway).

You claimed "And most gas giants have icy moons anyway." in the context of refuelling. I tried to quantify that into something that can be tested. Would you prefer another formulation of your claim?

You're saying "I think everything we know about how planets form is wrong and doesn't apply anywhere else, so I'm coming up with my own idea and haha you can't prove it wrong".

No, you made a specific claim about GGs hundreds of Pc from here. I simply doubted that you, or anyone, have proof of that.

And you're also displaying how ignorant you are about science too.

And yet I have heard of Karl Popper and falsifiability.

Since this has degenerated into personal attacks I will decline to respond further.

 

[Reynard]

At what point will the existence of gas giant topic be moved to it own thread so we can again discuss "Do MGT Traveller ships have anti-gravity for lift?"?

 

[fusor]

At what point will the existence of gas giant topic be moved to it own thread so we can again discuss "Do MGT Traveller ships have anti-gravity for lift?"?

I'm done talking about it. There's no way to persuade ignorant people who wilfully refuse to understand science that they're wrong.

Besides, is there anything left to discuss? The conclusion seems to be "the implication is that they must, but MGT isn't explicit about it".

 

[Reynard]

Then that's what can be discussed. At least we talk about one topic rather than two tangential topics.

 

[Spartan159]

For the 2 cents it's probably worth, in T5 lifters are automatically installed in TL 8+ hulls, doing away with them saves 0.5 MCr per 100 tons of hull.

 

[-Daniel-]

Then that's what can be discussed. At least we talk about one topic rather than two tangential topics.

Not sure what is left to discuss. There is no definitive answer so while I agree with fusor that the implication is that they must, it is left to each GM to make the final call at their table. So unless Mongoose elects to way in on the question and give a final answer, it is answered as best we can.

 

[fusor]

Then that's what can be discussed. At least we talk about one topic rather than two tangential topics.

Not sure what is left to discuss. There is no definitive answer so while I agree with fusor that the implication is that they must, it is left to each GM to make the final call at their table. So unless Mongoose elects to way in on the question and give a final answer, it is answered as best we can.

Given previous answers, Matt would probably say "it's all soft, do what you want". :/

 

[-Daniel-]

For the 2 cents it's probably worth, in T5 lifters are automatically installed in TL 8+ hulls, doing away with them saves 0.5 MCr per 100 tons of hull.

Well that is interesting, it at least shows what MWM was assuming. :mrgreen:

 

[Reynard]

""it's all soft, do what you want". "

And that's good. One reason I was attracted to Mongoose Traveller is it swung away from overcomplication. Somehow the game system was/is playable without knowing every nut and bolt and gave good grounds for forum discussion like we see here. So far, a lot on this thread have agreed it makes sense for ships in Traveller to have lifters. Now we and others reading this can go back to flying, landing and taking off whether or not you want you actually decide your TU ships use the feature (or can scoop fuel over gas giants).

 

[fusor]

And that's good. One reason I was attracted to Mongoose Traveller is it swung away from overcomplication. Somehow the game system was/is playable without knowing every nut and bolt and gave good grounds for forum discussion like we see here. So far, a lot on this thread have agreed it makes sense for ships in Traveller to have lifters. Now we and others reading this can go back to flying, landing and taking off whether or not you want you actually decide your TU ships use the feature (or can scoop fuel over gas giants).

I don't really mind what anyone does in their own TU (obviously people can decide for themselves, and that's fine),but that doesn't affect anyone else's TU so it's not really relevant or useful to anyone else. I think that when the rules are defining the official published setting they do need to be hard and clear about such things, and Mongoose has a habit of being neither. Sure, ambiguity leads to discussion (and also confusion), but it doesn't help anyone who's trying to understand what the intent was in coming up with that rule.

I guess I want those "nuts and bolts". I don't see it as "over-complication", I see it as good design and clarity.

 

[Reynard]

Sheez, Marc's T5 gave everyone nuts and bolts and how the critics howled over that. Can't please some.

 

[fusor]

Sheez, Marc's T5 gave everyone nuts and bolts and how the critics howled over that. Can't please some.

I think the critics were howling more over the fact that T5 was an unreadable mess with detail in all the wrong places (do we really need pages of tables to define a species' senses?) and not a lot of actual useful RPG material in it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

T5 does a fantastic job of detailing the technology etc of the Traveller setting.

It does a less successful job in providing a task system that works (and is based on the most disliked traveller task system to date - that of T4), and it doesn't have a combat system that works.

So useful toolkit for background stuff, but absolutely useless as a playable game. It is also really useful because Marc's novel is based on the tropes in T5 - clone families, wafer tech, makers - to name but three.

I like it but I could never run it rules as written.

 

[fusor]

So useful toolkit for background stuff, but absolutely useless as a playable game. It is also really useful because Marc's novel is based on the tropes in T5 - clone families, wafer tech, makers - to name but three.

None of which have ever appeared in Traveller before, but apparently people don't mind if the author suddenly switches things around in the setting (they just care when anyone else tries).

 

[Reynard]

Hmmm, all we hear on this forum is Mongoose doesn't pack a lot of new, trendy future tech but Marc updates such in T5 and of course we have someone here that hate the concept! There's no pleasing some.

 

[fusor]

Hmmm, all we hear on this forum is Mongoose doesn't pack a lot of new, trendy future tech but Marc updates such in T5 and of course we have someone here that hate the concept! There's no pleasing some.

It'd be really nice if people actually read what I said here.

I never said I hated the concept. I said that people complain whenever anything changes in canon, but are strangely silent when Marc is the one who does it. The mob on CotI are throwing a fit about Mongoose changing the deckplans on a ship, and yet nobody bats an eyelid that there are suddenly families of clones running around?

 

[rust2]

I said that people complain whenever anything changes in canon, but are strangely silent when Marc is the one who does it. The mob on CotI are throwing a fit about Mongoose changing the deckplans on a ship, and yet nobody bats an eyelid that there are suddenly families of clones running around?

Well, Marc owns the canon, it is his to do with it whatever he likes and whenever he likes. Changes to Marc's canon by others, including Mongoose, are by some people seen as not legitimate.