Dilgar vs Earth Early Years

[blackphoenix]

Earth's Warlock-Class destroyer is on par with the Sharlin War Cruiser

Now is it? In ACTA yes. In background? No-one really knows. Sharlin for sure isn't equally nasty as in series and ACTA in many ways don't represent series accuratly taking liberties in name of making good game.

No point using ACTA for estimating series background.

Both were nasty in b5wars. The long recharge on the Warlock's heavy particle cannons usually meant after they fired they were brought off line and energy was shifted into sensors or additional thrust. The Sharlin with its jammer, high sensor value, long ranged guns, and grav engine, she could be quite the pain as well.

 

[tneva82]

Both were nasty in b5wars. The long recharge on the Warlock's heavy particle cannons usually meant after they fired they were brought off line and energy was shifted into sensors or additional thrust. The Sharlin with its jammer, high sensor value, long ranged guns, and grav engine, she could be quite the pain as well.

And again B5wars is game and therefore isn't 100% accurate(wouldn't be much of fun if EA couldn't even SHOOT at those Minbari ever for one thing).

 

[blackphoenix]

Well its about as acurate as one can get, I mean JMS endorsed it so it has some backing behind it. But yes still a game.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Not without the rest of the American army in support, because that replacement fuel and ammunition doesn't materialise in situ. Nor do you have any means of getting across a demolished bridge, or much chance of fending off an artillery barage or minefield - which may not kill you but will wreck a track quite happily - nor, unless you're bringing the GPS satellite network back with you, do you have a subtantially better idea of where you are - and certainly not where the enemy is - than they do you.

Very rarely is there a gap in technology which is unassailable until you bring 'magic' technology into the equation. A firing line of 88's to the front will probably not trouble Chobham armour (incidentally it's the antitank rounds, not the armour, with a uranium component) - with modern stuff being somewhere over twenty times as good as steel plate against antitank rounds - but a bunch of panzerfausts sneaking round the side will take out unarmoured tracks and possibly road wheels just the same as cold war Soviet RPGs and contemporary Iraqi EFP mines. An immobilised tank is not a good place to be.

The uranium bit was already taken care of for me ....

Thats just it, though. A single platoon of M1s wouldn't just magically go back in time to fight. If 'somehow' it was a force with 1940s technology against a force with modern technology, the modern force *would* have its GPS and refueling and joint force capabilities. F-22s and F-16s and F-15s would have total air superiority, B1Bs, B2s and F-117s would drop their weapons without being touched, while ground forces of Strykers, M1A2s and Bradleys destroyed everything in their path with A-10s, AC-130s and AH-64Ds providing close air support. It would all come in the same package. The devistating advantage of any one signle part of that package alone, though, shows just how much of a difference technology makes.

The 'magic' technology of today would bring the 1940s to its knees. GPS, night vision, lasers (as in guidence and range finding...) encryption and communication equipment (modern decryption would break *almost* anything they had avaliable to keep their actions secret)...

It would all be there. The opponent with the technology to field a space based heavy partical weapon has all the technology avaliable that led up to building that weapon.

Both were nasty in b5wars. The long recharge on the Warlock's heavy particle cannons usually meant after they fired they were brought off line and energy was shifted into sensors or additional thrust. The Sharlin with its jammer, high sensor value, long ranged guns, and grav engine, she could be quite the pain as well.

And again B5wars is game and therefore isn't 100% accurate(wouldn't be much of fun if EA couldn't even SHOOT at those Minbari ever for one thing).

It is *more* accurate than ACtA simply for its point system. B5W wasn't limited to 6 'priority' levels of strenght. While I don't remember the value, a Shadow vessel could cost 3k in points and be able to murder everything in a one on one situation, thus making the B5W ships 'closer' to their actual strenght, rather than fitting them into one of 6 nice levels.

Again, based off ACTA stats yes, but fitting background it seems unlikely. The Minbari where centuries ahead of anyone elses technology, and someone being able to match their primary heavy capital ship with the technical and technological resources of one world - no matter how motivated - is unlikely in the extreme. The Warlock is a bit of an exception as it has elements of Minbari and Shadow-derived technology in it, not just human hardware.
"Ship X is equivalent to ship Y" in ACTA tends to be a product of only having 6 levels for them to be at....

As to the Warlock vs. Sharlin, I had thought they were nearly on par with one another. Unlike the Omega, which was 'the last destroyer Earth would ever need' the Warlock *was* a truely devistating creation. In B5, Earth/Humans are such a great power and a great threat because they are the 'coming of age' race. While this is just back patting for the humans, they are remarked upon by the older races and feared because they are advancing at a paramount rate. Prior to the Earth Minbari war, they are at a level of technology behind the Narns, within the next couple decades they are nipping at the heels of one of the most powerful races in the galaxy, the Minbari.

 

[Da Boss]

Warlock vs Sharlin - I tend to agree the Warlock is not a creation of merely EA tech it has the technology of the ancients - just like the Victory or the White Star.

re Modern vs Older tech - have you read Harry Turtledoves World War series - limited amounts of 1970's (ish) tech vs the nations of the world with WWII - an interesting match up (great novels too )

 

[Lord David the Denied]

As to the Warlock vs. Sharlin, I had thought they were nearly on par with one another. Unlike the Omega, which was 'the last destroyer Earth would ever need' the Warlock *was* a truely devistating creation. In B5, Earth/Humans are such a great power and a great threat because they are the 'coming of age' race. While this is just back patting for the humans, they are remarked upon by the older races and feared because they are advancing at a paramount rate. Prior to the Earth Minbari war, they are at a level of technology behind the Narns, within the next couple decades they are nipping at the heels of one of the most powerful races in the galaxy, the Minbari.

As I understand it, the Minbari are still light-years ahead in most aspects of technology. The Warlock has nasty weapons but they're crude compared to the Minbari equipment. The Warlock doesn't have gravitic drives or precise jump drives like the Minbari ships, it's doesn't have pin-point accuracy on its long-range beams, it doesn't have advanced electronic warfare and stealth systems. It does with brute force and ignorance what the Minbari do with sophistication.

 

[l33tpenguin]

As I understand it, the Minbari are still light-years ahead in most aspects of technology. The Warlock has nasty weapons but they're crude compared to the Minbari equipment. The Warlock doesn't have gravitic drives or precise jump drives like the Minbari ships, it's doesn't have pin-point accuracy on its long-range beams, it doesn't have advanced electronic warfare and stealth systems. It does with brute force and ignorance what the Minbari do with sophistication.

The Warlock does have Gravitic drives, it also has artificial gravity. I'll give you the other points, though.

However, if you look at the rest of the EA (according to ACtA, at least), it is obvious they are quickly gaining on the Minbari. The Delphi has stealth systems just as advanced, as well as a superior sensor/EW/CEW suite. Also, while I don't know where it came from, the HEL tracking system on the Nemesis (regardless of whos fleet this is in, its an Earth built warship) is the most advanced targetting system out there. I don't think a Nemesis, supported by a Delphi, would have much trouble overcoming Minbari stealth.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

As I understand it, the Minbari are still light-years ahead in most aspects of technology. The Warlock has nasty weapons but they're crude compared to the Minbari equipment. The Warlock doesn't have gravitic drives or precise jump drives like the Minbari ships, it's doesn't have pin-point accuracy on its long-range beams, it doesn't have advanced electronic warfare and stealth systems. It does with brute force and ignorance what the Minbari do with sophistication.

The Warlock does have Gravitic drives, it also has artificial gravity. I'll give you the other points, though.

IIRC the Warlock's drives are the "semi-gravitic" ones used by the Centauri which provide artificial gravity but aren't as advanced as the Minbari Drives.

I'm not sure what the fluff in B5 Wars was like, but in the Old Babylon Project RPG the Centauri Drives used focussed gravity to provide thrust, while the Minbari drives pushed and pulled against gravity wells (or the weak gravitational forces that bind the universe together, depending on where the ship was). The Minbari Drives were, of course better.

 

[Greg Smith]

The Warlock does have honking big rocket engines on the back. (To use the technical terminology).

 

[l33tpenguin]

The Warlock does have honking big rocket engines on the back. (To use the technical terminology).

I read somewhere.. maybe it was EFNI.. that the Warlocks started with wanna-be Grav drives then got real ones from the Minbari when EA joined the Alliance. The 'honking big rocket engines' were still used to proved increased thrust. While I'm unsure as to the 'canon' of EFNI, it is, nevertheless, pretty good infos. Regardless, the Warlocks are supposed to have full on grav drives

 

[blackphoenix]

Actually the Warlock was supposed to have fully functional antigrav environment for the crew, but turned out earth tech could only provide about .2 or .3 earth standard gravity. When the ISA came along they got full working antigrav with standard earth gravity.

The drives however, are "standard" EA drives.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Actually the Warlock was supposed to have fully functional antigrav environment for the crew, but turned out earth tech could only provide about .2 or .3 earth standard gravity. When the ISA came along they got full working antigrav with standard earth gravity.

The drives however, are "standard" EA drives.

Right, and the other high-tech Minbari bells and whistles are absent. No holographic VR bridge for fleet command, no crystalline hull structure, no highly precise jump engines, etc, etc.

Even the Vree are behind the Minbari, and they got a leg-up with reverse-engineered Minbari technology after the last Shadow War. Only races like the Drakh are on a par with the bone-heads.

 

[tneva82]

As to the Warlock vs. Sharlin, I had thought they were nearly on par with one another.

Based on what? There's no on-screen evidence that humans had somehow leapfrogged centuries ahead with it. So is warlock able to destroy omegas at will like sharlin can? Lemme see. We see vorchans destroying warlock. Vorchan isn't as good as omega and single sharlin would make short work of squadron of omegas so those vorchans destroying warlock would be dead meat against sharlin.

Makes idea of warlock equal to sharlin rather doubtful. Has the Earth even managed to figure out how to crack the stealth(not atleast in 2259)? If not all those pretty weapons on warlock needs to be fired by plain eyesight. Good luck shooting up to thousand km's accuratly with eyesight...

 

[blackphoenix]

As to the Warlock vs. Sharlin, I had thought they were nearly on par with one another.

Based on what? There's no on-screen evidence that humans had somehow leapfrogged centuries ahead with it. So is warlock able to destroy omegas at will like sharlin can? Lemme see. We see vorchans destroying warlock. Vorchan isn't as good as omega and single sharlin would make short work of squadron of omegas so those vorchans destroying warlock would be dead meat against sharlin.

Makes idea of warlock equal to sharlin rather doubtful. Has the Earth even managed to figure out how to crack the stealth(not atleast in 2259)? If not all those pretty weapons on warlock needs to be fired by plain eyesight. Good luck shooting up to thousand km's accuratly with eyesight...

Now to be fair, those were at least Demos, not Vorchans, if not something completely new and unknown to us. At least in b5wars Demos were extremely deadly in packs. We also do not know how an Omega would fair against a Sharlin, let alone several Omegas. The closest we see is when Delenn shows up with what, two or three Sharlins at B5 station against a pair of Omegas. Yeh, between the Sharlins, the station, the Whitestar, and the remaining Omega protecting B5 I'd turn and flee as well.

As for the Minbari being more advanced, yes they have lots of toys to use. But even during the Earth-Minbari war, Earth did a lot of damage. Yes the Minbari largely walked through us, but they only ever seemed to use Sharlins against everything, and in mass numbers. I mean in "In the Beginning" there is a scene where a couple Olympii and fighters attack about half a dozen or more Sharlins. Advanced tech helped yes, but they were also outclass, at least in the b5wars sense, by maybe a few thousand points for Earth and over then thousand points for the Minbari.

The closest thing to a "fair" fight with Earth and Minbari tech is the Shadow Omegas versus the Whitestar fleet. B5wars states the Shadow Omega have no "Advanced" sensors, so maybe slightly better than your average Omega, but certainly no huge leap of suddenly beating Minbari stealth. Consider the shadow tech versus vorlon tech a wash between the two otherwise. Yes the Minbari tech still won in the end, but there were more than a couple White stars that were destroyed that day. One could argue a difference of combat training too. The minbari/rangers were very familiar with their craft by that point, but if I recall this was the first real combat trial of the Shadow Omegas. Had they gotten some combat in against other targets first, perhaps it would have been different.

Again, only b5wars, but I would say is safe to say that Earth can largely negate the Minbari stealth/jammer by the time the Delphi entered service

 

[blackphoenix]

Actually the Warlock was supposed to have fully functional antigrav environment for the crew, but turned out earth tech could only provide about .2 or .3 earth standard gravity. When the ISA came along they got full working antigrav with standard earth gravity.

The drives however, are "standard" EA drives.

Right, and the other high-tech Minbari bells and whistles are absent. No holographic VR bridge for fleet command, no crystalline hull structure, no highly precise jump engines, etc, etc.

Even the Vree are behind the Minbari, and they got a leg-up with reverse-engineered Minbari technology after the last Shadow War. Only races like the Drakh are on a par with the bone-heads.

Well the Vree should be behind the Minbari, the only reason they have Anti-Matter tech is because they found some old Minbari wreckage. I don't think the Minbari have used Anti-matter weapons in over 250 years, again based on ISDs from b5wars. Had they evolved on their own, they would probably have lasers and pulse weapons too. Would it make them less effective, *shrug*, hard to say, but they're fighting style would be different.

 

[tneva82]

But even during the Earth-Minbari war, Earth did a lot of damage.

Yeah. In ground or by ramming. EA scored _zero_ victories apart from Black star. Ramming thing was brought to JMS attention as "shouldn't that count as victory since sharlin was taken out" and he commented it to be more of a draw at best.

but certainly no huge leap of suddenly beating Minbari stealth.

White star didn't HAVE minbari stealth. Remember that even plain omegas could lock to white stars.

They couldn't lock to sharlins. If the omegas which came to B5 would have tried to shoot sharlins they would have been aiming by eyesight. At distances in space that's useless. They couldn't HIT sharlins so they wouldn't be able to damage them. Shoot all you want you won't hit them with eyeballs.

Again, only b5wars, but I would say is safe to say that Earth can largely negate the Minbari stealth/jammer by the time the Delphi entered service

No onscreen evidence support that.

 

[blackphoenix]

Yeah. In ground or by ramming. EA scored _zero_ victories apart from Black star. Ramming thing was brought to JMS attention as "shouldn't that count as victory since sharlin was taken out" and he commented it to be more of a draw at best.

Never claimed it as "victories" but surely if they cannot lock onto to the Minbari "silouette" with their weapons, directly ramming into them should have been similarily hard.

White star didn't HAVE minbari stealth. Remember that even plain omegas could lock to white stars.

Again, yes going by b5wars, but they White Stars have the same jammer equipment as the Sharlins do. Also I'd think if their stealth was effective before the Minbari would have included it here as well. Also the Omegas that scan the White Stars only comment that the sillouette matches the description of Sheridan's fleet. Nothing is shown to state they received any additional information other than the basic shape of it. Same with the Sharlins, the basic form is determined, but no lock on can be made.

They couldn't lock to sharlins. If the omegas which came to B5 would have tried to shoot sharlins they would have been aiming by eyesight. At distances in space that's useless. They couldn't HIT sharlins so they wouldn't be able to damage them. Shoot all you want you won't hit them with eyeballs.

Could use your same arguement, no onscreen evidence to show they couldn't lock onto Sharlins.


I make a lot of references to b5wars yes, but outside of the cannonness of the show, its still official cannon with JMS.

 

[l33tpenguin]

As to the Warlock vs. Sharlin, I had thought they were nearly on par with one another.

Based on what? There's no on-screen evidence that humans had somehow leapfrogged centuries ahead with it. So is warlock able to destroy omegas at will like sharlin can? Lemme see. We see vorchans destroying warlock. Vorchan isn't as good as omega and single sharlin would make short work of squadron of omegas so those vorchans destroying warlock would be dead meat against sharlin.

Makes idea of warlock equal to sharlin rather doubtful. Has the Earth even managed to figure out how to crack the stealth(not atleast in 2259)? If not all those pretty weapons on warlock needs to be fired by plain eyesight. Good luck shooting up to thousand km's accuratly with eyesight...

The whole 'targeting' problem in B5 is something that always bugged me. Hitting a target visually is extremely easy even at extreme ranges. Its not like it would be some guy looking down a set of iron sights. The bloody Hubble space telescope can aim itself at another galaxy, I'm betting it isn't using anything more than a visual reading to do so (apart from coordinates of know celestial objects, Hubble is credited as having found untold numbers of new stars and galaxies). I would wager that by 2260 the Hubble is obsolete. The Minbari stealth systems cloak them from sensor scans, they don't become invisible to visual scans.

By the time the Delphi was in production, I think it is safe to say that Earth has cracked Minbari stealth. The Delphi is a more advanced scout than what the Shadows field (at least in terms of scouting capability). And the HEL tracking system on the Nemesis goes on to prove that even more.

Does anyone have the B5W cost of the Sharlin and the Warlock?

 

[lastbesthope]

Actually the Warlock was supposed to have fully functional antigrav environment for the crew, but turned out earth tech could only provide about .2 or .3 earth standard gravity. When the ISA came along they got full working antigrav with standard earth gravity.

Not for a while though, even the VCD didn't have full 1 g at first.

LBH

 

[captainsmirk]

Does anyone have the B5W cost of the Sharlin and the Warlock?

Sharlin = 1825
Warlock = 1800

Plus your omitting a rather major difference between a ship in a space battle targeting another ship visually and the Hubble targeting a galaxy.

A galaxy doesn't move (at least not at any appreciable speed), a ship does... you therefore have to use your hubble telescope device (which is fairly large thus even some of the big ships are unlikely to carry more than one, if they carry anything like it at all since sensors normally work better...) to spot your target (which is much smaller than a galaxy although of course at much less distance) then you have to visually determine its movements so that you can predict where it will be when your weapons fire reaches it to have even a chance of hitting it. By this point the Minbari have already locked onto your ship and taken it apart.


Nick