Defensive Blast

[Majestic7]

Defensive blasts are cast as immediate actions, what does this mean exactly? I don't understand yet what an immediate action is.

Immediate action is an action you can take at any place or time - including enemy turn - if you are not surprised. Thus maneuvers and spells, such as Ward by Will, can be used or cast during enemy turn as a reaction to what the enemies or other characters do. However, if the character walks in to an ambush, he can't take immediate actions before he ceases being flatfooted.

Also under which conditions can you cast a DB?

As a reaction to an attack, while the character is not surprised.

 

[Stygian Devout]

That's a good point, and I think a clarification is in order - does the immediate action of a defensive blast actually interrupt the attack that triggered it? Or does the attack resolve before the blast takes effect?

I always thought the idea of a defensive blast was to defend against such an attack by pre-empting it. Otherwise it's more of a retributive blast. The issue has come up in my game so I'd like to see what you guys have to say on it.

 

[Majestic7]

That's a good point, and I think a clarification is in order - does the immediate action of a defensive blast actually interrupt the attack that triggered it? Or does the attack resolve before the blast takes effect?

I always thought the idea of a defensive blast was to defend against such an attack by pre-empting it. Otherwise it's more of a retributive blast. The issue has come up in my game so I'd like to see what you guys have to say on it.

Immediate action is immediate. It happens when the attack is declared, but before the attack die is rolled. Otherwise there would be no point whatsoever in a spell like Ward by Will that gives the caster DR or Defensive Blasts that provide temporary Hit Points. The action that was declared before immediate action - whether it is Defensive Blast or something else - continues normally unless the immediate action makes it impossible somehow. Such as by killing the guy was about to hit the sorcerer on the head with an axe.

 

[flatscan]

Immediate action is immediate. It happens when the attack is declared, but before the attack die is rolled. Otherwise there would be no point whatsoever in a spell like Ward by Will that gives the caster DR or Defensive Blasts that provide temporary Hit Points. The action that was declared before immediate action - whether it is Defensive Blast or something else - continues normally unless the immediate action makes it impossible somehow. Such as by killing the guy was about to hit the sorcerer on the head with an axe.

This is incorrect. It is true a Defensive Blast is an Immediate Action. It is not true it happens before the attack that triggers the Immediate Action resolves. The text in the 2e book makes it very clear.

The Rule of Defence
Sorcerers generally have plenty of close-range magic ideal for *counter-attacks* to ensure that any who attempt to kill them risk destruction themselves.

That is the general rule with Defensive Blasts, it is a counter-attack, not generally a preventative attack and resolves after the damage dealt that triggered it (unless the specific Defensive Blast spell used says otherwise). Ward by Will has nothing to do with Defensive Blasts as it is a Free Action (not Immediate Action) spell, the way it benefits the sorcerer is because the spell lasts until the beginning of the Sorcerer's next round, so a whole round of DR.

Other Defensive Blasts like Vanish back up the counter-attack by having wording such as:

Roll 1d6 for every Power Point expended when this spell is cast. If the total is greater than the damage inflicted by the attack which provoked the defensive blast, the sorcerer takes no damage. Instead, the sorcerer vanishes from the scene...

and Master, Aid Me!

The demon may choose to block the attack that provoked the casting of this defensive blast - if the demon chooses this option, it must make a Reflex saving throw against a DC equal to the attacker's attack roll. If the Reflex save is successful, the demon takes the damage from the attack instead of the sorcerer.

The sorcerer has to take damage from the triggering attack unless the specific Defensive Blast utilized says otherwise.

 

[Majestic7]

This is incorrect. It is true a Defensive Blast is an Immediate Action. It is not true it happens before the attack that triggers the Immediate Action resolves. The text in the 2e book makes it very clear.

I don't use the second edition. However, if that is the case, it makes Defensive Blasts a whole lot crappier. This araises a question though - if someone chops off a sorcerer's head with an axe, then he can't use Defensive Blast? Or can he use it as he dies? I really don't see the point in playing it that way. I've just ruled that DB's can be used an immediate interrupt.

That is the general rule with Defensive Blasts, it is a counter-attack, not a pre-emptive attack and resolves after the damage dealt that triggered it. Ward by Will has nothing to do with Defensive Blasts as it is a Free Action (not Immediate Action) spell, the way it benefits the sorcerer is because the spell lasts until the beginning of the Sorcerer's next round, so a whole round of DR.

Ward by Will and Ward of Anigmus (or something like that) seem to be Immediate Actions in the Stygia source book. They are stated as being free actions, but the description seems to point that the sorcerer can cast them during enemy turn. There is certain mixing of free and immediate actions throughout Mongoose Conan compared to what they mean in other D20 games. If you could only cast those two spells during your own turn, they'd be very crappy.

Other Defensive Blasts like Vanish back up the counter-attack by having wording such as:

This does not necessarily mean that the spell is cast after the attack is resolved. It only means that it's effect takes place after the attack is resolved - the spell can still be cast before the attack hits. If DB is cast after the attack hits and causes damage, it open five problems:

1) What if the caster is killed by the attack
2) Should DB be subject to Concentration rules regarding damage
3) A sorcerer does not need to do the decision on whether to use DB or not before knowing results of the attack.
4) What about Defensive Blasts that add to saves? Would the order be enemy spell, make save, use DB if it fails and see if the added bonus manages to save you from the effect?
5) Nature and Summoning DB's are stated to be able to jump in front of an attack and absorb the damage. If DB comes after the attack is resolved, this makes no sense. On the other hand it is quite unelegant if two DB's have exceptions to the basic rule in how they work.

The sorcerer has to take damage from the triggering attack unless the specific Defensive Blast utilized says otherwise as some individual spells do (Master, Aid Me! gives the CHANCE that the demon can prevent the attack).

Does it explicitly state that the caster must be damaged? Does it state what happens to that damage and what if the caster dies from it?

 

[flatscan]

I don't use the second edition. However, if that is the case, it makes Defensive Blasts a whole lot crappier. This araises a question though - if someone chops off a sorcerer's head with an axe, then he can't use Defensive Blast? Or can he use it as he dies? I really don't see the point in playing it that way. I've just ruled that DB's can be used an immediate interrupt.

I'd let the sorcerer use a Defensive Blast in that instance, but it's the last thing he'll ever do. The point is to take his attacker with him to hell, not soak up damage (unless the specific DB spell says otherwise).

Ward by Will and Ward of Anigmus (or something like that) seem to be Immediate Actions in the Stygia source book. They are stated as being free actions, but the description seems to point that the sorcerer can cast them during enemy turn. There is certain mixing of free and immediate actions throughout Mongoose Conan compared to what they mean in other D20 games. If you could only cast those two spells during your own turn, they'd be very crappy.

Your opinion. I think Ward by Will is awesome. Free action that give the sorcerer some extra DR to soak up attacks in an ENTIRE round. So if the sorcerer is attacked by multiple foes, the damage is reduced from each of their attacks by the spell.

This does not necessarily mean that the spell is cast after the attack is resolved. It only means that it's effect takes place after the attack is resolved - the spell can still be cast before the attack hits. If DB is cast after the attack hits and causes damage, it open four problems:
1) What if the caster is killed by the attack
2) Should DB be subject to Concentration rules regarding damage
3) A sorcerer does not need to do the decision on whether to use DB or not before knowing results of the attack.
4) What about Defensive Blasts that add to saves? Would the order be enemy spell, make save, use DB if it fails and see if the added bonus manages to save you from the effect?
5) Nature and Summoning DB's are stated to be able to jump in front of an attack and absorb the damage. If DB comes after the attack is resolved, this makes no sense.

1) It doesn't specifically say in the rules, so as all vagueness in the rules it's a GM fiat. I would allow a player to cast the DB as a final FU to the guy(s) who killed him.
2) No Concentration roll needed because the sorcerer wasn't in the act of casting the DB when hit, but as an Immediate Action AFTER it hit.
3) Nope. The attack hits and does damage. It's a COUNTER ATTACK (and usually a particularly mean one) as stated in the rules.
4) Like which? I've got the Conan main book in front of me. Are you talking about a spell from Secrets of Skelos?
5) It does, OGL is a game of exceptions. Specific instances make the exception to the rule. Vanish, Master, Aid Me! state specifically that the DB can stop the damage dealt. Spells that don't say that, don't prevent anything. If the DB prevented all damage those sentences in Vanish and Master, Aid Me! would be redundant and worthless.

Does it explicitly state that the caster must be damaged? Does it state what happens to that damage and what if the caster dies from it?

It doesn't get that detailed. It says, "The defensive blast is provoked only if the sorcerer is attacked in some fashion by a foe." So, a sorcerer can use it as a counter-attack after any type of attack from a foe, whether they damaged him or not.

 

[Majestic7]

4) Like which? I've got the Conan main book in front of me. Are you talking about a spell from Secrets of Skelos?

4) Desperate Ward and there is another similar one in Secrets, I think. Can't be bothered to check.

It doesn't get that detailed. It says, "The defensive blast is provoked only if the sorcerer is attacked in some fashion by a foe." So, a sorcerer can use it as a counter-attack after any type of attack from a foe, whether they damaged him or not.

In that case all this stuff about what a counter-attack actually is and when the spell is cast is only your personal assumption? While in fact the Defensive Blast may logically work as I described and the rules do not explicitly state otherwise. Provoked by an attack can mean declaring an attack - like I think it should be - not that the attack hits and damages the sorcerer. I think it is the least complicated and most elegant solution that avoids a lot of problems and actually makes it possible for a sorcerer to "waste" his DB on attacks that would not have hit him at all.

If you wish to interpret the rules otherwise, be my guest, but you can't say that my interpretation is against RAW if they are that shady.

 

[flatscan]

In that case all this stuff about what a counter-attack actually is and when the spell is cast is only your personal assumption? While in fact the Defensive Blast may logically work as I described and the rules do not explicitly state otherwise. Provoked by an attack can mean declaring an attack - like I think it should be - not that the attack hits and damages the sorcerer. I think it is the least complicated and most elegant solution that avoids a lot of problems and actually makes it possible for a sorcerer to "waste" his DB on attacks that would not have hit him at all.

OGL rules are like legalese. It states counter-attack in black and white.

If you wish to interpret the rules otherwise, be my guest, but you can't say that my interpretation is against RAW if they are that shady.

Uhm, thank you? Wasn't really asking your permission, I will continue to run my game as I have been with the RAW.

 

[Majestic7]

OGL rules are like legalese. It states counter-attack in black and white. The wording in Master, Aid Me! and Vanish are very clear. Damage has to be rolled by the attacker. Your solution makes those spells worthless.

Nope. The demon appears anyway - it has only an option to jump in front of a blow unless I'm gravely mistaken. The main point of that blast is to have a frigging demon appear to mow down your foes. Vanish states that if the dice is higher than the damage, the caster disappears. If the attack misses and thus causes zero damage, that is less than the dice thrown so the caster disappears... Your interpretation causes problems (such as with the Desperate Ward) and makes the system unelegant in my eyes.

Uhm, thank you? Wasn't really asking your permission, I will continue to run my game as I have been with the RAW.

Mmh, just stating that I'm not RPG police. However, you are not running them with RAW since RAW is very shady - you are running them based on your own interpretation. There are many ways to interpret those rules. Mine is just as legal as yours. I don't know if that is intentional from Mongoose or just bad design.

 

[flatscan]

Mmh, just stating that I'm not RPG police. However, you are not running them with RAW since RAW is very shady - you are running them based on your own interpretation. There are many ways to interpret those rules. Mine is just as legal as yours. I don't know if that is intentional from Mongoose or just bad design.

K, it says Counter-Attack and doesn't specify what that means in the rules, so yeah, I'm running based on my interpretation. The point I'm trying to make is that damage is still inflicted on the sorcerer. See the Vanish spell where it gives us an either or situation. Either the PP total is greater than the damage inflicted by the attack which provoked the DB and the sorcerer takes no damage, or it's not and he DOES take damage from a successful Attack. It's a PREVENTATIVE spell as is the option in Master, Aid Me!. If there is no preventative measure in the DB then the sorcerer will take damage from a successful attack.

 

[Majestic7]

K, it says Counter-Attack and doesn't specify what that means in the rules, so yeah, I'm running based on my interpretation. The point I'm trying to make is that damage is still inflicted on the sorcerer. See the Vanish spell where it gives us an either or situation. Either the PP total is greater than the damage inflicted by the attack which provoked the DB and the sorcerer takes no damage, or it's not and he DOES take damage from a successful Attack. It's a PREVENTATIVE spell as is the option in Master, Aid Me!. If there is no preventative measure in the DB then the sorcerer will take damage from a successful attack.

...and my point is that it doesn't state anywhere that the sorcerer would need to be damaged. Thus Vanish, in my interpretation, works if the attack misses and works if the attack hits but doesn't do more damage than result of the dice rolled. In other cases, such as Chill of the Grave, the blast hits before the attack lands. If the attacker survives, he may then continue with his blow. In the case of Desperate Ward things go wonky if the hostile spell hits first and DW somehow follows, either changing save result or causing a reroll.

In the Secrets of Skelos, Hedge Magic DB gives +1 to Dodge (and/or a save) against a single attack per PP. This clearly gives a message that DB is supposed to happen before the attack is resolved - especially as there isn't any indication in this spell that it would somehow be an exception from the norm. Surely this would be stated somewhere if the base assumption is that the sorcerer must be damaged for the blast to trigger - what good is bonus to Dodge otherwise?

 

[flatscan]

K.

1. You're saying a declaration of Attack is made and that can trigger the DB before any roll for Attack is made, just the declaration is enough correct?

2. But you agree that the DB does NOT prevent the damage unless the spell is intended to or the attacker is killed before he can resolve his attack?

 

[Majestic7]

K.

1. You're saying a declaration of Attack is made and that can trigger the DB before any roll for Attack is made, just the declaration is enough correct?

Yes. When the barbarian is about to bash the sorcerer with an axe, he can blast Chill of the Grave at the barb - or cast Desperate Ward as other sorcerer reaches at him with Death Touch.

2. But you agree that the DB does NOT prevent the damage unless the spell is intended to or the attacker is killed before he can resolve his attack?

Yes. If the barbarian above does not die, he can carry on with hitting with the axe and the sorcerer can no longer try anything to prevent it.

 

[Ichabod]

The DBs in 2E are incredibly inconsistent in how they work. The only way for them to all do what they are *obviously* supposed to is if they don't work the same way. The way we play is that each one kicks in whenever it is optimal for it to do so, whether after attacks are declared but before attacks are rolled, after a successful hit but before applying damage, after applying damage, whatever.

 

[Majestic7]

The DBs in 2E are incredibly inconsistent in how they work. The only way for them to all do what they are *obviously* supposed to is if they don't work the same way. The way we play is that each one kicks in whenever it is optimal for it to do so, whether after attacks are declared but before attacks are rolled, after a successful hit but before applying damage, after applying damage, whatever.

Well, I think the most elegant solution is that they must be used as the attack is declared. If the attack misses, some DB's, such as Weapon Curse, have been wasted - but that adds an element of gambling to using DBs. I like that - it seems to fit in the spirit of Hyborian Age sorcery.

 

[flatscan]

Well, I think the most elegant solution is that they must be used as the attack is declared. If the attack misses, some DB's, such as Weapon Curse, have been wasted - but that adds an element of gambling to using DBs. I like that - it seems to fit in the spirit of Hyborian Age sorcery.

That is not all that an Immediate Action is though. From the SRD:

Immediate Action

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn. Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are currently flat-footed.

It does say any time, so I'm leaning towards agreeing with you that it can actually interrupt the Attack and be made after the declaration of Attack and before the Attack Roll. But an Immediate Action "can be performed at any time" and thus isn't limited to being before or after the Attack Roll. It's really too bad there isn't a FAQ for clarification. Would be nice if the writers of the main book were on the boards to question. :?

 

[Ichabod]

The DBs in 2E are incredibly inconsistent in how they work. The only way for them to all do what they are *obviously* supposed to is if they don't work the same way. The way we play is that each one kicks in whenever it is optimal for it to do so, whether after attacks are declared but before attacks are rolled, after a successful hit but before applying damage, after applying damage, whatever.

Well, I think the most elegant solution is that they must be used as the attack is declared. If the attack misses, some DB's, such as Weapon Curse, have been wasted - but that adds an element of gambling to using DBs. I like that - it seems to fit in the spirit of Hyborian Age sorcery.

People aren't stupid, they are going to manage their characters to try to take only the most useful spells and aren't going to bother using spells foisted upon them that don't do anything.

The 2E DBs, by and large, suck. They tend to be either way too narrow or a last bit of spite as the sorcerer gets nuked. Weapon Curse is probably the only DB that balances well in that it gives some defensive benefit (unlike Chill of the Grave, the closest thing to the broken 1E DB but still vastly inferior), is threatening to the attacker, and isn't stupidly broken (in theory) like Master, Aid Me!.

 

[Sutek]

I know that the 2ed versions were dumbed way down because it was felt (by the general griping masses here in the forums - lol) that the AE versions were far too powerful by RAW. Sounds like Mongoose took things too far the other direction.

In AE, blasts were a Free Action. Therefore, they didn't count as an attack. The sorcerer just declared the blast was happening and it went off right then and there, dealing 1d6 fire damage for each PP used up.

Sounds like now that nobody is happy with the specific school versions either? It also kinda sounds like DBs are still not really exclusively "defensive" and can still be used as defacto area attacks.

 

[flatscan]

It also kinda sounds like DBs are still not really exclusively "defensive" and can still be used as defacto area attacks.

Well, there is the provision that, "The defensive blast is provoked only if the sorcerer is attacked in some fashion by a foe." So in other words, despite it being an Immediate Action it can't be used unless the sorcerer is Attacked and can't just arbitrarily be activated as it could in AE. Also, there are specific DBs which don't do any damage whatsoever and prevent damage, increase DR, curse the Attacking Weapon, cause the sorcerer to teleport, etc.

 

[Sutek]

Well, I take it the argument is that some are powerful and some stink. Is that pretty much it, or is it the Immediate Action thing more than content?

The heirarchy is thus: Free, Immediate, Swift, Normal (ie. Move/Standard)

Free actions take no time, but neither do they impact the game much. Immediate actions take very little time, but generally do not impact the game greatly, and so can be started on any turn, at any moment. Swift actions take very little time, but they impact the game enough so that you are allowed to do them only on your turn.

Now, the thinking was that way, up until DB, and it's been assigned as an Immediate Action purely for fluff reasons because the mechanic fits the effect that Mongoose wanted. It happens whenever the Sorcerer declares it, on his action or anyone elses, any time he likes. Therefore, it would interupt the flow of actions and could intercede right before a foe's attack roll.