Mark Dunder
Mongoose
Solution 2 reminds me of playing Champions because you had to describe the Special Effect you wanted to happen. Energy Blast, then turns into a Ice Sickle attack. Anyway, I like this idea. Definitely adds a special flavor.
Defensive Blast Problem / HELP!!
- Thread starter Kincaid
- Start date
Sutek
Mongoose
The manifest is irrelevant. What actualy happens and how to describe things is not what anyone has problems with regarding DB. It's the ammount of damage that can be inflicted along with the ease of causing that damage. It's apparent that it was intended as a last-ditch effort to save his own skin on the part of the sorcerer doing the blast, but that's another problem: it doesn't work that way. A sorcerer can expend all of his PP at any level and affect "targets" of equal of lesser hit dice disproportionately to the ammount of damage he ough tot be capable of dealing. In other words, it does too much damage and doesn't cost enough.
The argument is that it's ther to keep sorcerers alive and I'd buy that except that they never lose the ability - it just gets bigger and better. Even when a sorcerer has some very deadly spells at his disposal, DB is a better "attack" because it deals so much damage. If you kill everything in your wake with but a thought, why go through the probelems of casting a spell.
This combined with the fact that DB can apparently be used with Opportunistic Sacrifice make it far too powerful and not the flavorful stop-gap it should be.
The argument is that it's ther to keep sorcerers alive and I'd buy that except that they never lose the ability - it just gets bigger and better. Even when a sorcerer has some very deadly spells at his disposal, DB is a better "attack" because it deals so much damage. If you kill everything in your wake with but a thought, why go through the probelems of casting a spell.
This combined with the fact that DB can apparently be used with Opportunistic Sacrifice make it far too powerful and not the flavorful stop-gap it should be.
Mark Dunder
Mongoose
Sutek said:
This coupled with a special effect means I can add it to the game without flinching to hard. Just imagine a swarm of scarabs knocking an oaf of a barbarian off his feet. Go Scholar, go Scholar, go!
This has been a great thread. I'm actually looking forward to the weekend when I can try this all out.
Sutek said:
what happens when the scholar is struck but not dropped in the AoO while attempting his DB...curious. Wanting to use DB for the evil sorcerers since i forgot the one time my players faced a sorc and had him cornered in a sewer...[doh!!!]
multiclass scholars are less weak in hth, also combat expertise, shields etc can help save the scholar...
I disagree. What is wrong with a sorcorer of any level being able to throw down that much damage? Conan derided sorcorers for being physically weak and generally un-manly but he never thought of them as defensless or anything but dangerous. DB is most effective when it is saved for a last-ditch save-your-life situation but if a sorcorer wants to risk everything on a one-shot ability then I'm ok with that. It seems to me the sort of insanely darring and ambitious plan that goes hand-in-hand with the sorcorer mindset.Sutek said:
Here I agree with you. The Opportunistic Sacrifice recursive-loop is an obvious exploit. Which is countered by my solutioun #1. Classify DB as a Mighty Spell. Easy.
Later.
Mark Dunder
Mongoose
Problem with DB as a Mighty Spell, is the description of what criteria classifies a spell as a Mighty Spell. All I can do is quote from source:
Conan PE page 286
Mighty Spells and Runaway Magic.
"Any time a particularly powerful spell is used, there is a risk that serious, world-wrenching consequences will result. This is particularly the case with the Summonings style, which has a real tendency to upset some kind of magical balance and set powerful, controllable forces into motion."
---
I don't see DB as a serious, world-wrenching spell. Powerful yes, but doubtful if it will create an imbalance in the world or set uncontrollable forces into motion.
Conan PE page 286
Mighty Spells and Runaway Magic.
"Any time a particularly powerful spell is used, there is a risk that serious, world-wrenching consequences will result. This is particularly the case with the Summonings style, which has a real tendency to upset some kind of magical balance and set powerful, controllable forces into motion."
---
I don't see DB as a serious, world-wrenching spell. Powerful yes, but doubtful if it will create an imbalance in the world or set uncontrollable forces into motion.
The world-wrenching results are not a result of the Mighty Spell per-say, they are a result of the Runaway Magic chain-reaction that is triggered by loosing control of a "particularly powerful spell". Think of it like burning down a forest by loosing control of your campfire.
The way I see it when the sorcorer uses his DB he is making himself a conduit for raw magical energy. Defining a DB as a Mighty Spell simply means that if he pushes his luck he loose all control of the raging power and suffer a nasty burn-out. To my mind at least that is perfectly synergistic with the properties that DB alread has; namely that it drains all your PP when you use it (no ability to control how many PP you spend) and deals excessive damage.
Hope that helps.
The way I see it when the sorcorer uses his DB he is making himself a conduit for raw magical energy. Defining a DB as a Mighty Spell simply means that if he pushes his luck he loose all control of the raging power and suffer a nasty burn-out. To my mind at least that is perfectly synergistic with the properties that DB alread has; namely that it drains all your PP when you use it (no ability to control how many PP you spend) and deals excessive damage.
Hope that helps.
Sutek
Mongoose
argo said:
Well, perhaps but then why don't all these evil sorcerers just walk into towns, make an appointment with the local lord, and blast him into oblivion? There's no need for the spell list if you can just nuke people at will. Now, granted, the limitation is the range, but if a sorcerer can DB for more damage than a Barbarian with maxed out melee, then something is wrong.
argo said:
Heck...just count it as a spell period. Then it requires INIT and AoOs can be flung in by adjacent foes, etc.
However, I also like the idea of (A) no opportunistic sacrifice or (B) it costs a Fate Point. That's a quick fix too.
Mark Dunder
Mongoose
Well, it looks like playtesting time now. I sure hope Mongoose has been listening to all of these good ideas you guys have.
In the Conan stories, there might have been a good reason why I never saw a DB happen. Most of the sorcerers were powerful and arragant, it never crossed most of their minds that they could be bested. By the time they figured it out, it was too late. Also, unless a sorcerer is alone, he would not use DB, cause he would blast friends. So when the Khitans attacked the Stygians in their temple, no one dared to use DB. Just my theory on that.
In the Conan stories, there might have been a good reason why I never saw a DB happen. Most of the sorcerers were powerful and arragant, it never crossed most of their minds that they could be bested. By the time they figured it out, it was too late. Also, unless a sorcerer is alone, he would not use DB, cause he would blast friends. So when the Khitans attacked the Stygians in their temple, no one dared to use DB. Just my theory on that.
As powerful DB can be when combined with OS, there is a tactic to overcome it. Use low level hirelings. Send in a couple, the sorcerer will have to beat them down or waste his pp on with little return.
But for some solutions to the problem would be allow DR to affect it, and ignore the MD rule in the case of DB.
But for some solutions to the problem would be allow DR to affect it, and ignore the MD rule in the case of DB.
ricardo440
Mongoose
I don't like that because that means the Bad guys are playing around the defensive blast.
A group of dimwitted bandits come up with a superb plan of attacking the mage just 2 at a time in case he explodes, thus making it alright for the rest of the bandits.
When would the goons have seen an exploding mage before to be able to recognise one. If they had they would likely be dead.
A group of dimwitted bandits come up with a superb plan of attacking the mage just 2 at a time in case he explodes, thus making it alright for the rest of the bandits.
When would the goons have seen an exploding mage before to be able to recognise one. If they had they would likely be dead.
Sutek
Mongoose
I can also say this in light of the "send in the goons" solution (hehe):
Reputation scores, people.
On both sides of this (either the sorcerer having the rep for using the DB when cornered (A) or the gang having the rep for sending in the weenies to soften up the sorcerer or "trick him" into triggering his DB(B)) the rep score can allow a meta gaming solution to things too.
(A): If the sneaky sorcerer is know for this sort of thing, or if his rep causes him to give off the vibe that he is inclined to do so, then tacticas can be developed to deal with him from range, distract him so he can be sneak attacked, etc.
(B): If the attacking group is known to sacrifice thugs until the toughs feel it's safe to step up and take on a sorcerer with the potential to DB them all into oblivion, thereby taking out the weaklings instead and leaving himself open later in th ecombat, then a crafty sorcerer can lay all kinds of preemptive traps or, better yet, hire his own thugs and weaklings to do his bidding.
Of course there is a solution (C): Reach weapons, people.
The real problem with DB is that it gets so freakishly powerful that it loses it's main reason for inclusion in the game, as a mere flavor-enhancing gimmick as well as a "last ditch effort". It's not in how to deal with it occuring or what tactics to use to avoid the effects. Just don't get close. But any one thing that dishes out so much damage breaks the mechanics of the game too much.
Reputation scores, people.
On both sides of this (either the sorcerer having the rep for using the DB when cornered (A) or the gang having the rep for sending in the weenies to soften up the sorcerer or "trick him" into triggering his DB(B)) the rep score can allow a meta gaming solution to things too.
(A): If the sneaky sorcerer is know for this sort of thing, or if his rep causes him to give off the vibe that he is inclined to do so, then tacticas can be developed to deal with him from range, distract him so he can be sneak attacked, etc.
(B): If the attacking group is known to sacrifice thugs until the toughs feel it's safe to step up and take on a sorcerer with the potential to DB them all into oblivion, thereby taking out the weaklings instead and leaving himself open later in th ecombat, then a crafty sorcerer can lay all kinds of preemptive traps or, better yet, hire his own thugs and weaklings to do his bidding.
Of course there is a solution (C): Reach weapons, people.
The real problem with DB is that it gets so freakishly powerful that it loses it's main reason for inclusion in the game, as a mere flavor-enhancing gimmick as well as a "last ditch effort". It's not in how to deal with it occuring or what tactics to use to avoid the effects. Just don't get close. But any one thing that dishes out so much damage breaks the mechanics of the game too much.
GrimJesta
Mongoose
Sutek said:
But that's not defensive.
I happen to like the idea of making it a Might Spell. Perhaps in a panic the sorcerer lets go of his control over magic, allowing too much in at once, and thus you get the BD. But being a conduit of that magnitude would cause some sort of reality-backlash: thus the Mighty Spell. And that's why sorcerers didn't use DB in the stories; they knew that it was a moment of weakness, where their panic makes them lose control. Surely the arrogance of sorcerers would make them think this a pathetic moment, one to be derided. Speaking of reputations, a sorcerer known for using the DB bomb might have an especially negative reputation among other sorcerers since his grasp/hold on magic is so frail.
I thought about making DB do subdual damage to the sorcerer so that they were fatigued afterwards, but the Mighty Spell thing has sold me. Erm... so far.
-=Grim=-
I have a sorcerer in my group who only uses this as a last resort. Usually I tell him when he can use it but a good guideline I gave him is he has to have been physically attacked somehow and have no clear alternative than to blast them. He is loathe to use this ability, and has only used it once on a swarm of insects that were eating him alive.
The group has thus named him death blossom
The group has thus named him death blossom
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
quigs said:The group has thus named him death blossom
Fans of The Last Starfighter are they? 8)
