Defensive Blast Problem / HELP!!

[Kincaid]

Hello Everyone. My first Post. I am a new GM and my group has already had one meeting. I have to say that I am a long time CONAN fan and I love all the changes that it has made to traditional D&D, but i have a problem with a scholar class.

The Pc is a 1st level scholar threatening to use defensive blast for 7d6 damage and then "push it" for 14d6 damage :!: I believe that scholar's need a defensive capability but this just seems insane for a 1st level char to be able to do 14d6 damage! He is also talking about using is offensively. :shock:

The problem is i cant find anything in the rules to deal with it. Its a free action and dosnt provoke an AOO. This is kinda crazy and there arent any rules that make it seem to be "defensive only", like requiring the sorcerer to be at 50% hp or require a Full round action to do.

I have read some past forums (by Sutek) about the problem, but there dosnt seem to be a consensus about what to do.

My question is what are GM's doing about this and is there any common variant rule that is both fair to Gm's and the Sorcerer?

Help!!

 

[Lando The Archmagi]

Realize he'll use up his PP and its going to be taxing and likely destroy things around him (friends, valuables, etc). Have some villians/opponents hang back and pelter him with ranged weapons or something. He'll then be a dead scholar.

 

[Castel]

I think that defensive blast should affect everything within the scholar 10 feet radius should be affected, including the Scholar clothes, items weapons and gear, the only thing that would not be affected would be the scholar itself, so i dont think that it would be used a lot, since you would lose every thing, including your clothes, wich are inportant.
And i think that only scholars should be able to use this, not dabblers like AE says that anyone who can make magic can use this ability.

 

[VincentDarlage]

He is also talking about using is offensively. :shock:

The problem is i cant find anything in the rules to deal with it. This is kinda crazy and there arent any rules that make it seem to be "defensive only."

Help!!

Ummm, the rule is in the name. It is a DEFENSIVE blast. It can't be done offensively. Period.

Think of it as a sorcerous version of the panic attack. If he will die if he does not do it (and if he did not actively seek combat), then he can do it. Otherwise, the power simply isn't there. The name is the rule you are looking for. When the player is worried that his beloved sorcerer is about to die in the next round - then he can suddenly access the power. Sort of like those people who lift cars in moments of crisis.

You are the GM. If you feel he is using it offensively, then he can't use the power. It is not an Offensive Blast, after all. And if he did something to intentionally get himself into a position to enable himself to do it - then that is also offensive. Make a judgement call with the power. That is what Games Mastering is all about.

Seriously, I have never understood the problem people have with this power. The name states the purpose of the power. If it is not being used for that purpose, the power does not work. Yes, it calls for GM adjudication, but if a GM can't or won't do that, why is that person a GM?

Everyone I have seen cry about this power on the boards says, "It is called defensive blast but my players..." or some variation. Every GM and Player knows it is supposed to be defensive. So use it that way! How simple is that?

I've not seen the power abused (or even really used) in my campaigns. If my players ask to use it, it is fairly simple to judge the situation. "I am about to die! Can I use Defensive Blast?" "Are you really defending yourself, or were you on the offensive?" "Well, I ran up and attacked him first with my club, but I didn't expect his counterstrike to be a critical!" "Then do you really think you can use the power?" "No, I guess not."

Scholar is doing some research... a thief sneaks up behind him... and sneak attacks! Defensive Blast! Boom! Barbarian looms out of the fog after hunting down the the scholar who rained unholy doom upon his mercenary unit. The barbarian attacks while the scholar backs up in fear! Defensive Blast! Boom!

Scholar sees maiden surrounded by seventy Picts. He knows it is certain death, but he rides in the midst of them, waiting the onlslaught. They attack and he will surely die. He tries Defensive Blast, his plan all along (he also has Opportunistic Sacrifice and figures he will be an Engine of Unholy Destruction)... uh oh.... um.. Hey guys.... Umm... (Picts slaughter stupid scholar).

 

[Oly]

Cheers Vincent that's actually a really good response, I'd never thought of it that way. A few lines like that in the rule book would have worked wonders.

I still don't like it for my NPCs though. In Tales of the Black Kingdom the temple at the end of the first adventure would have been full of walking bombs who were justifiably defending themselves.

Still as something for keeping PC scholars in line that's a great solution.

 

[GimpCowKing]

Scholar sees maiden surrounded by seventy Picts. He knows it is certain death, but he rides in the midst of them, waiting the onlslaught. They attack and he will surely die. He tries Defensive Blast, his plan all along (he also has Opportunistic Sacrifice and figures he will be an Engine of Unholy Destruction)... uh oh.... um.. Hey guys.... Umm... (Picts slaughter stupid scholar).

lol, that treminds me of a capaign i was part of at one point.

on another note, the game im currently in uses sorcery rules and erattas from Raven's rules on sorcery, another thread on the conan page. raven deals with defensive a little but perfers to mainly eratta the "Final Strike" rules. in either case bpth are used when the character is about to die only, and should be used in times of "What the!?" rather than times of "Whoops"

 

[VincentDarlage]

Well, there really isn't any reason it should be a "final" strike. Once the scholar does a by-the-core-rules Defensive Blast, it will be hard to do it a second time, even if he has Opportunistic Sacrifice. Those seeking to kill him will either be dead or in a hurry to back off - in which case he would have to bring himself into range in order for it to affect anyone and would therefore nullify the power.

Which is why I don't see a problem with Opportunistic Sacrifice and Rule of Defense. Once he defends himself, he either must choose to run or to bring a counter attack. If he selects the second option - the power is nullified for the rest of the encounter. If he runs, then it is his would-be killers' fault if they get that close to him again. If he uses his recycled power points to cast a spell against his would-be assassins - then that is a counter attack and for the rest of the encounter he may not use the rule of defense.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I still don't like it for my NPCs though. In Tales of the Black Kingdom the temple at the end of the first adventure would have been full of walking bombs who were justifiably defending themselves.

As game master, you can do what you want with the NPCs - whatever makes a better story. Still, letting them defensively blast might have taught the PCs to use a different tactic.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Thanks, Vincent.

If the subject ever came up in my campaign, and the bad-guy scholar HAD to use it, I would make that his final hurrah. He could leave everything a big, smoking crater, but he himself would no longer exist. Kinda along the lines of "Death Throes" of the Balor:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor :twisted:

(In my campaign only NPC villains are scholars--players are banned from playing this class altogether).

 

[urdinaran]

Thanks for the posts Vincent!!!

If you're afaid of this 1st level Scholar's power, here are a few points to consider:

1. Archers - "Hey guys, lets aim at theat crazy lokking dude in the brightly colored robes. He has a staff in his hands, must be some kind of leader-type."

2. Skirmish formation - DB has a 10' radius, that's it. Don't bunch up the bad guys and he won't get as many. Also, he runs the risk of getting his friends.

3. Ready an Action - NPCs can also ready an action, such as when the Scholar runs up to one to unleash the blast.

4. Thieves - Thieves are usually really great for taking out lightly armored people. Thieves can Tumble past opponents and get to that Scholar, and maybe do a sneak attack ala flanking.

My point is this: If your players want to Min/Max, so can you. Explain that to them. Playing Conan is about having fun, not who can crunch-numbers better. I personally do not have this problem, my players are adults and enjoy playing the game. I have had opportunities to unleash a DB on them and haven't, because it wasn't right at the moment.

 

[MadDog]

Realize he'll use up his PP and its going to be taxing and likely destroy things around him (friends, valuables, etc). Have some villians/opponents hang back and pelter him with ranged weapons or something. He'll then be a dead scholar.

Oddly enough, DB only affacte "Creatures", something which strikes me as odd.

Why would a scholar be automatically dead ? Wear armor (quilter or better if you have armor proficiency) and you can still DB.

As written, its difficult to prevent abuse.

Mad Dog

 

[VincentDarlage]

As written, its difficult to prevent abuse.

Mad Dog

What? As written, I have never had to deal with abuse. Its purpose is clear as written. I just do not understand the stance that it is prone to be abused. Is the player using it offensively or defensively? GMs call, pure and simple.

 

[MadDog]

What? As written, I have never had to deal with abuse. Its purpose is clear as written. I just do not understand the stance that it is prone to be abused.

Your way means you have to read the mind of the player. Did he _really_ mean to throw himself in the midst of a group of foes ? Would you punish a player for acting heroically ? Even if he did, isnt his life in mortal danger which would allow him to use DB ?

I should also say, you not allowing "counter-attacks" is against the rules as written:

"sorcerers generally have plenty of close range magic ideal for counter attacks.....as a last resort counter attack"

Last resort with respect to being unable to perform any more sorcery during the battle ? The interpretation of that last part can lead to different conclusions on the intent.

DB can be abused, that is not to say everyone does it. I would prefer to moderate the damage and add incidental effects, such as affecting all objects and creatures, and fatiguing the scholar in the process. YMMV.

Mad Dog

 

[VincentDarlage]

Is the player using it offensively or defensively? GMs call, pure and simple. Is he using it as a "last resort" or as the main plan?

If the GM feels it is being abused, power does not work. Also pure and simple - and therefore cannot be abused.

Different GMs may judge it differently, but that is part and parcel of being a GM.

Anyways, once again I feel I have adequately answered the original question.

What does YMMV mean?

 

[MadDog]

What does YMMV mean?

Your Milage May Vary

Mad Dog

 

[argo]

My question is what are GM's doing about this and is there any common variant rule that is both fair to Gm's and the Sorcerer?

Simply have the enemy do their best to kill the sorcerer. Thats it, thats all there is to it. IMX it is prety hard for a scholar to get into position to use his DB to good effect without exposing himself to extreme danger. Don't pull your punches and he probably will not get to use it that often.

The sorcerer PC in my last campaign made a point of never willingly going within half a mile of someone with a drawn sword if it could be avoided. Every time I managed to corner him and he would be in a position where I expected him to use DB he would think a minute, do something tricky to distract the opponenent and flee back to saftey behind the meatshields. He survived the entire campaign and never used DB once.

Conversly all my NPC scholars who attempted to stand their ground got hosed. One party member moves up to them and he uses his DB, then the rest of the party rips him to pieces. Or he tries to save his DB and the guy who moved up first cuts off his head.

Sorcerers simply shouldn't be in melee.

 

[Castel]

Well the monk brawller style (scholar that goes into mellee), can learn oriental and simple warding spells, and use DB... and it gives a good secondary fighter.
The problem with defensive blast is that, the actual way it´s written you can use it to attack, of course the GM can decide if it´s valid or not to use it, but if a player wants to use it ofensively and says that the rules say so, you can only say that you make the rules...
I actully see DB as a "last thing to do", when confronted with mellee.
The problem with it to me is two things, it should affect the whole 10feet, causing damage to everything in that area, every thing except the scholars body, all else would burn, making defensive blast, really a thing that scholars would use only in critical situations.
Well if people whant it to be really defensive instead of ofensive, then just make it deal nonlethal damage, isntead of fire damage it would be energy damage that would disable enemys not kill them.
I must say that DB is very good and usefull the way it is, but it really can be used as offensive attacks because it isn´t efectivelly defined when you can or cannot use it, and if a player wants to bother a GM about it, he can.
But in the end, like Mr. Vincent Darlage said, it´s a GM call...

 

[Scorpion13]

My take on it is this: let the players use it any time they want. Theyre free to use it whenever. That aving been said, they had better pray to whatever horrible demon god it is they worship that they kill ALL theyre enemies with it, because it they didnt, theyre dead meat. Without any kind of sorcery to protect them, theyre the worst class for fighting there is. Even with whatever alchemical items they might have squirreled away, they very, very vulnerable.

Also, they better hope none of theyre party members are near after this happens. Theyd be all to happy to kill they party scholar for whatever rare, valuable items he might be carrying.

So I say let them use it whenever they want. Just understand the consequences of using it.

 

[VincentDarlage]

The problem with defensive blast is that, the actual way it´s written you can use it to attack...

Where is it written that it can be used for an offensive attack? I don't see anything that contradicts its obvious intended use as "defensive."

I must say that DB is very good and usefull the way it is, but it really can be used as offensive attacks because it isn´t efectivelly defined when you can or cannot use it, and if a player wants to bother a GM about it, he can.

No, it can't, or it wouldn't have been called a DEFENSIVE blast. How hard is that to grasp? Why does everything have to be defined to an unarguable point anymore? Don't GMs know how to define it for his own game, or was that art lost with the introduction of 3E? It says Defence in the title, therefore it must be used for defence - not offence. It really does not seem that hard of a concept to grasp to me, nor is it particularly vague.

Maybe one of these days Mongoose will let me errata this and I will spell it out just as I have on this thread.

 

[Castel]

I should have said "counter-attack" instead of attack, i meant that, the way I see it, a Scholar may chose when to use DB in a battle, choosing to use it when it is more deathfull or more usefull, but in no way should he be permited to go running to the enemy and then blowup using DB, in some kind of Terrorist tactic.

I play by the book when i Roleplay (When i GM, i like to change stuff), and i can see that sometimes people find loopholes that they try to explore, and it is the GM obligation to deal with this, allowing or not these actions.

Yes i see the "defense only DB", but it isn´t really saying "You cannot go near the mellee battle, and them using DB with the intent of killing your enemys", but some players need that, or 1 hour of explainning to them why it doesn´t work like that.

Well Mr Vincent if an errata was made, it would help people to understand DB better, and keep up the excelent work with the books, Aquilonia was great!