Damage in RuneQuest

[Deleriad]

Continuing on, I'm wondering which hit points and damage system people are using? I've been using a slightly modified version of the GM's handbook system but there was talk a while ago of people using general hit points as well. So, which do you use?

Rules from the RQ deluxe/MRQ core? If so, do you use the changes to resilience in the players update?

Rules from the GM's Handbook? If so do you use the changes to resilience and first aid as well?

General Hit Points and hit locations. Older versions of RQ had a total number of Hit points as well as hit locations. If you use, this how many total HP?

Just general Hit Points. Basic Roleplaying doesn't bother with hit locations. Does anyone use this with MRQ?

Something totally different - such as?

 

[Mongoose Pete]

I use something slightly different. They are a further extrapolation of the rules in the GM's Handbook, which I refined so that Resilience rolls were only rolled once (when the wound is received) to remove further bookkeeping; and made Major Wound Resilience tests to the torso or head immediately lethal on a failure.

For Serious or Major Wounds I use opposed rolls of Resilience versus the attacker's Weapon skill, to avoid unconsciousness/death. I find this better represents the ability of a more skilful warrior to inflict deadlier wounds. It also negates the problem of characters or creatures with very high Resilience always making their (unopposed) rolls.

I do not cap the Resilience or Persistence skills at Characteristic x 5, since it introduces a statistical break point in other parts of the system (magic saves for example) and doesn't work when the governing characteristic reaches 19+.

 

[Deleriad]

I use something slightly different. They are a further extrapolation of the rules in the GM's Handbook, which I refined so that Resilience rolls were only rolled once (when the wound is received) to remove further bookkeeping; and made Major Wound Resilience tests to the torso or head immediately lethal on a failure.

That sounds pretty similar to my adjustments.

For Serious or Major Wounds I use opposed rolls of Resilience versus the attacker's Weapon skill, to avoid unconsciousness/death. I find this better represents the ability of a more skilful warrior to inflict deadlier wounds. It also negates the problem of characters or creatures with very high Resilience always making their (unopposed) rolls.

I've been steering clear of this for now because my games have been pretty low level so far and not wanting the extra dice roll. I wonder though if you could make the resilience roll against the actual attack roll rather than having the attacker make a second roll?
E.g. Bob (sword 73%) rolls 24 and seriously injuries Andrew. Andrew has a Resilience skill of 52% and now must beat Bob's successful roll of 24 in order to avoid unconsciousness.

Means keeping dice results on the table for longer but is also means that a critical attack leading to a serious injury is more likely to cause unconsciousness than a normal attack. At first glance I really like this idea.

I do not cap the Resilience or Persistence skills at Characteristic x 5, since it introduces a statistical break point in other parts of the system (magic saves for example) and doesn't work when the governing characteristic reaches 19+.

Same here. I've also ignored the higher starting values. Basically it's one of the few changes where I have found the original rules to be better.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

I've been steering clear of this for now because my games have been pretty low level so far and not wanting the extra dice roll. I wonder though if you could make the resilience roll against the actual attack roll rather than having the attacker make a second roll?

That's a nice touch. Saves a dice roll and preserves the essence of a good attack. Its also still compatible with situational modifiers which may have boosted your weapon skill, since being attacked from behind or above should have a better chance of striking more lethally.

I like it. The same refinement could be used for many of my Opposed Roll Combat special effects.

 

[Denalor]

I do not like "general HP"-systems. But I suppose that's based on systems like DnD, so probably I'm biased.

Adding a general HP to the hit location HP will make the system more deadly (lots of tiny wounds will drop you). With my group that has to be avoided if possible.

Those comments about resilience... need to be checked closer before I can give my 50 pence.

 

[Hervé]

For combat oriented games, I use General hit points. I use hit locations mostly for armor and added damage for vital parts. If combat isn't so important, I use general hp only.

 

[Denalor]

As in some of my posts before I need to elaborate. Please bear with me.
Let me get this straight (all based on RQ Deluxe):

Remaining Hit Points are
Between 0 and max HP: equals a minor wound
Between -1 and –max HP: equals a serious wound
Less than –max HP: major wound

Example:
Cedric has 5HP per arm. As long as his hit points are 0 or above he suffers only from a minor wound. When he is between -5 and -1 HP he has a serious wound. When he is at -6 or less HP he has a major wound

Minor Wound
First Aid will heal 1D3 HP
Natural Healing restores 1HP per day (only light activity allowed)

Serious Wound
First Aid will restore location to 0 HP, i.e. only a minor wound remains
Natural healing restores 1HP per day (only light activity allowed) if the character succeeds with a Resilience test.
If head, chest or abdomen: immediate Resilience test and Resilience test every round to remain conscious (until either location restored to 1 HP or First Aid has been applied)
If arms or legs: locations useless (until either location restored to 1 HP or First Aid has been applied)

Major Wound
First Aid will only stop blood loss, i.e. no more Resilience rolls each round
Healing will heal 1HP.
No Natural healing possible, unless Healing (the skill) has been applied successfully. From that point on natural healing restores 1HP per day (only light activity allowed) if the character succeeds with a Resilience test.
If head, chest or abdomen: immediate resilience test or die. If alive second immediate Resilience test to stay conscious. Both (!) Resilience tests every round to prevent death or unconsciousness (until either location restored to 1 HP or First Aid has been applied). Death from blood loss within (CON+POW)/2 rounds
If arms or legs: immediate Resilience test and Resilience test every round to remain conscious (until either location restored to 1 HP or First Aid has been applied). Death from blood loss within (CON+POW) rounds

Personal note: that’s the kind of write up I do for my personal GM screen… I never purchase the official ones

Question at this point:
A major wound in a limb will sever/mangle the limp. How far into the negative can this actually go ? I seem to remember from RQIII that the max negative HP you can get is the max HP. I.e. Cedric above could have max -5HP in his arm. You would not further reduce the HPs in this location, but if he only suffers a mere 1HP in that location, his arm would be mangled/severed and he now has a major wound. I mean: how much damage can an arm take after it is severed ? Can it be hacked to multiple pieces or what ?
If that were the case the rules for the Healing skill would – for me - make more sense. This would heal 1HP, i.e. set him to -4HP in the arm (= major wound) and from then on natural healing would be as written as the rules would now indicate a serious wound.
If that interpretation is not the case, Cedric could be at -9HP in his arm. Healing skill would set him to -8HP. In order for natural healing to kick in, you’d need to make a special note that this wound is now only a serious wound and no longer a major wound.

so that Resilience rolls were only rolled once (when the wound is received) to remove further bookkeeping

I see your point. Thus, you “choose to ignore” the pain and shock experienced when suffering from a serious injury (to head, chest or abdomen) for the sake of less bookkeeping. No fainting after the initial test. Do you also apply this rule for major wounds ? I.e. do you ignore the possibility of death due to blood loss ?

made Major Wound Resilience tests to the torso or head immediately lethal on a failure

Umm… but that actually is the rule as written ?

For Serious or Major Wounds I use opposed rolls of Resilience versus the attacker's Weapon skill, to avoid unconsciousness/death

make the resilience roll against the actual attack roll rather than having the attacker make a second roll?

Its also still compatible with situational modifiers which may have boosted your weapon skill, since being attacked from behind or above should have a better chance of striking more lethally

Definitely will take this up !
However, I can’t really see, why being on lower ground (and thus suffer -20% to defence) or fighting in partial darkness (again -20%) should make that resilience roll more difficult. I guess, you’d only apply those situational modifiers to the attack roll ? Yup, makes more sense I think.
If I decide against the “single resilience roll only” (not sure yet), I would make those repetitive resilience rolls non-opposed and at base value though.

Example:
Cedric is being attacked by a griffin, which is on higher ground (+20% to its attack). The griffin rolls a 77 (success, due to effective weapon skill of 80%) for its attack, Cedric rolls 34 (-20% to skill due to lower ground; effective Dodge skill 37; success) for his dodge. Cedric’s success is denoted to failure. Thus he suffers damage and needs to give ground, he immediately moves back 4 meters. As his companions Byron and Alaric are also battling the griffin, the griffin does not follow (as it would be prone to free attacks from those two – if they have available reactions left - when moving). Cedric suffers 12 damage to his abdomen. Cedric is SIZe 13, so no knockback occurs. Fortunately, he’s wearing a ring shirt, thus the damage is reduced to 9. His abdomen is now at -2HP, a serious wound. He needs to beat the griffin’s successful attack roll of 77 with a Resilience roll (as in an opposed roll, but the griffin’s result is already determined by the attack roll). His Resilience is 43%. Hard luck, a normal success won’t beat the griffin’s 77. Cedric rolls a 03, critical success ! Cedric remains conscious. Suffering from massive pain in his abdomen, Cedric will need to repeat the Resilience test every round to stay conscious, but he will only need a normal success, i.e. a roll lower than his Resilience skill of 43%. Cedric removes his first aid kit (1 combat) and starts to treat his wound (which will take 3 CAs, he rolled a 2). Cedric has 2 combat actions, thus at the end of the round he needs to make another Resilience test. He rolls a 42 and barely remains conscious. At the end of the next round (Cedric spent his two combat actions to treat the wound), Cedric rolls for his first aid skill. His skill is 37%, but as he is treating himself, he’s at -10%, i.e. 27%. Unfortunately he rolls a 83, a failure. As it is the end of the combat round he needs to repeat the resilience test. With a roll of 53 he fails and faints.

Parting shots:
I think First Aid is far more useful than low magnitude healing spells… even though it takes more time to apply. And it’s a real life safer when that ”death due to blood loss” is hanging over your head. But I suppose you have at least 10 rounds to evade that and even low magnitude spells should suffice to heal you up to 1HP and thus save your hide. Has anyone in your games ever died of blood loss ? I guess no.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Question at this point:
A major wound in a limb will sever/mangle the limp. How far into the negative can this actually go?

It has no limit, but in reality it doesn't matter. Once you have taken a Major Wound you are incapacitated and can no longer fight - and thus it is unlikely that the location will be damaged again. However, the further into negatives it goes, the longer the wound takes to heal.

You can use First Aid to stabilise the injury, but it requires surgery via the Healing skill before it can heal naturally. As long as the Healing skill check is a success the location starts to recover - it does not need to be brought back to being merely a Serious Wound for this to happen.

The potential problem with capping the maximum negative value a location will reach, is that any 1 point Healing spell will immediately bring that location back to only being a Serious Wound, possibly removing the incapacitation depending on your interpretation of the rules.

I see your point. Thus, you “choose to ignore” the pain and shock experienced when suffering from a serious injury (to head, chest or abdomen) for the sake of less bookkeeping. No fainting after the initial test. Do you also apply this rule for major wounds ? I.e. do you ignore the possibility of death due to blood loss?

Although the change is based primarily on minimising bookkeeping, one of my less pleasant personal experiences was when I was helping a friend fix his roof and caught my left hand in a table saw. Instant Major Wound, three fingers 80% severed, multiple fractures, the complete loss of several joints and major amounts of bone. For the first few seconds I was simply stunned, but then my survival instinct kicked in. I knew that my smaller friend lacked the physical strength to drag me down three flights of stairs and across 200m of rough garden to his car (we were a long way from any medical help). So I had to stay conscious and get myself there. So this weird, rational part of my mind took over and the first thing I did was wrap my hand in a plastic bag to keep the sawdust off and flapping bits in (strange what you think of at the time), applied a duct tape tourniquet and supported my now numb arm above my head to reduce further blood loss. It wasn't until we'd actually reached the hospital a good deal (and much focussed deep breathing) later that I relaxed and the shock, nausea and pain kicked in. :?

Now admittedly this was only a limb injury. But there are plenty of recorded historical duels which involved impales through the chest or gut, and the participants continued to fight. I apply the same single roll for Major Wounds too, but keep the chance of bleeding to death.

I've also suffered a fracture of the upper arm during combat which I didn't even notice until I'd stopped fighting. On the other hand I once dislocated my lower leg during a tourney, ripping apart my medial collateral ligament, and I went down screaming like a stuck pig. Both are technically Serious Wounds, but one I ignored (temporarily) and the other took me out immediately. Based on my combat experiences I now use the following...

Serious Wound
Limb - single opposed Resilience test to maintain use of limb
Head/Torso - single opposed Resilience test to remain conscious

Major Wound
Limb - single opposed Resilience test to remain conscious, bleed out in minutes
Head/Torso - single opposed Resilience test to avoid death, bleed out in rounds

made Major Wound Resilience tests to the torso or head immediately lethal on a failure

Umm… but that actually is the rule as written ?

It was in the original version as printed, but then I backtracked slightly in my Opposed Roll Combat rules. Since then I've returned to cinematic and gratuitous instant deaths!

make the resilience roll against the actual attack roll rather than having the attacker make a second roll?

Definitely will take this up !

Its a very good idea which I'll be using from now on. But as you rightly surmised situational modifiers should apply only for the Attack roll.

Parting shots:
And it’s a real life safer when that ”death due to blood loss” is hanging over your head. But I suppose you have at least 10 rounds to evade that and even low magnitude spells should suffice to heal you up to 1HP and thus save your hide. Has anyone in your games ever died of blood loss ? I guess no.

No. But bear in mind that in real life death from blood loss isn't normally that quick, even from a severed femoral. So those rules are actually being rather pessimistic!

 

[Rurik]

I like the lack of total HP in MRQ and play combat very close to the RAW.

I may well consider dropping the cap to Resilience (and Persistence) as well. I think the problem with them is more perceived than real.

Take the example of a combatant with a 95% or higher Resilience - you still fail on a roll of 96+. Now a 95 Resilience is a pretty heroic skill level, so you should be able to fight on after a lot of punishment. Making one roll a round the odds are that they are going to fail a roll within 20 rounds (100 seconds, or just over a minute and a half). Say our hero (or villian) takes a major wound to an arm and a serious wound to a vital, now they are making 2 rolls every round - odds are they will drop within 10 rounds. A character can easily end up making 3 or 4 rolls a round if they have a high resilience, and they will drop before too long.

I also like the suspense of the random resilience roll system. You do not know that you have X rounds until you pass out or die from blood loss or shock, only that you are deep trouble sooner or later if you don't get help.

I used a various house rules at first to limit Resilience, most of which I posted here a couple of years ago, but have since dropped them all. One was that there was a negative modifier based on location and severity of the wound (head being the worst), which was dropped for the simpler method of halving resilience for Major wounds. I also used to roll only once per round for Major Wounds to vital areas rather than twice, with the first failure meaning unconciousness and a second failure meaning death. In the end I figured the RAW seemed to work well enough, and the extra complexity of the houserules didn't really justify the benefits IMHO. There are areas where houserules are necessary, this area works well enough with the RAW.

 

[Deleriad]

Serious Wound
Limb - single opposed Resilience test to maintain use of limb
Head/Torso - single opposed Resilience test to remain conscious

Major Wound
Limb - single opposed Resilience test to remain conscious, bleed out in minutes
Head/Torso - single opposed Resilience test to avoid death, bleed out in rounds

This looks pretty good to me though the simulationist in me balks at being able to use a seriously injured limb or carry on fighting with broken ribs etc. Ironically I know it can and does happen in real life but because it's counter-intuitive, it feels unrealistic.

One question: if using opposed resilience rolls, what do you roll against from damage like falling and so on where there is no skill number to roll against?

 

[Mongoose Pete]

One question: if using opposed resilience rolls, what do you roll against from damage like falling and so on where there is no skill number to roll against?

Depends on the source. If it is something like a pit trap, then it'll be against the mechanisms or engineering skill of its creator.

If its a natural phenomena then I'd use a target number depending on the situation, i.e. a tumble down a steep cliff may be (30+height of the fall in feet)%. But if it was free fall I'd increase the number.

 

[Deleriad]

Minor Wound
First Aid will heal 1D3 HP
Natural Healing restores 1HP per day (only light activity allowed)

Great write up by the way. The one thing I've been wondering about is the traditional First Aid recovers 1D3 HP approach.

The problem is that: big healthy people take longer to heal than small sickly people.

Given that First Aid now turns a serious wound into a minor wound, why not just say that First Aid removes all damage from a minor wound. Obviously there are still bruises and scars etc but they're beneath the level of detail that RQ models. At first glance that might seem "unrealistic" but then again, why should a bruised arm be easier to chop off than an unbruised one?

E.g. Bog gets a thump in the shoulder from a troll. His arm is reduced from its maximum of 5 HPs to 1 HP. A bit later, a friend does some First Aid which, basically, consists of rubbing in some herbs to reduce the bruising. The arm regains 1HP and ends up with 2 HPs. A bit later he is hit for 7 damage; normally a serious wound but now a major one.

Alternately, the First Aid recovers the location back to full hit points so a serious wound is still a serious wound.

The caveat to this is that I only allow First Aid to be attempted once per injury regardless of whether it succeeds or fails. Basically, you rub in some herbs, move your arm a bit and wince with the pain. I don't like players sitting down for 10 minutes and rolling until they succeed. Or having player B undo the sling that player A put on earlier.

It does mean that First Aid is often better than healing magic however:
healing magic can be used repeatedly and healing magic can take a serious wound and keep applying healing until it is fully recovered. Finally, flavourwise, healing magic actually knits the skin back together as good as new while First Aid just ensures that the person can get on with life despite the bruising and pain.

This does mean that First Aid is just as useful for great trolls as it for pixies because the effect scales.

 

[weasel_fierce]

I have gone back and forth on total HP.

I generally like the rules in the gamemasters guide, but I dont cap resilience

 

[gran_orco]

Rules from the GM's Handbook? If so do you use the changes to resilience and first aid as well?

Which are the differences between first aid of the basic rules and that of GM?

 

[Nickbergquist]

I ran MRQ for a year and a half by the book, and then later with the GM Guide additions. I have to say that I would prefer the BRP method of a single hit point total with distributed damage by location (the RQ3 method) after seeing the current system in play....it made for some unwieldly circumstances in combat, and leaned heavily in favor of overpowered characters (one player with his minotaur effectively dominated every combat long beyond any normal circumstance in which he would have dropped or died acording to RQ3/BRP rules).

 

[danbuter]

I prefer Hit Points only. Hit locations are needlessly complicated, and just slow the game down. A good version of HP-only was the Elric! game.

 

[Deleriad]

I've been steering clear of this for now because my games have been pretty low level so far and not wanting the extra dice roll. I wonder though if you could make the resilience roll against the actual attack roll rather than having the attacker make a second roll?

That's a nice touch. Saves a dice roll and preserves the essence of a good attack. Its also still compatible with situational modifiers which may have boosted your weapon skill, since being attacked from behind or above should have a better chance of striking more lethally.

Just started using this now I've started running Blood of Orlanth with my players. In the first session none of the PCs actually received a serious or major wound so it only got used for NPCs where it seemed to go ok.

Also started adding Armour Piercing to critical results (rather than my old house rule of rolling weapon damage twice.) Basically, if you roll a critical then you ignore a number of points of armour equal to the actual dice rolled. E.g. roll 07 for a critical success and you can ignore that many armour points (including parry armour points if relevant.) That worked rather nicely and, again, gives an extra reward to high skill characters that doesn't foreground higher damage weapons.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

I've been steering clear of this for now because my games have been pretty low level so far and not wanting the extra dice roll. I wonder though if you could make the resilience roll against the actual attack roll rather than having the attacker make a second roll?

That's a nice touch. Saves a dice roll and preserves the essence of a good attack. Its also still compatible with situational modifiers which may have boosted your weapon skill, since being attacked from behind or above should have a better chance of striking more lethally.

Just started using this now I've started running Blood of Orlanth with my players. In the first session none of the PCs actually received a serious or major wound so it only got used for NPCs where it seemed to go ok.

We've been using it for three months or so, and it works very smoothly. Thanks for the excellent suggestion Deleriad!

 

[Mugen]

I prefer Hit Points only. Hit locations are needlessly complicated, and just slow the game down. A good version of HP-only was the Elric! game.

I also prefer the StormBringer/Elric/Pendragon approach.