Cult Spells

soltakss said:
1. Skybolt is also a Air/Storm Rune Spell as well as a Chaos spell (nice combo)
2. Orlanth doesn't get Skybolt

...

OK, so there was a cult called the Sky Terror that the Godlearners used to play around with, which was a chaotic sky god and may well have had Sky Bolt...

Personally, I'd go for options #1 AND #2. Doesn't sound like any spell Orlanth had in RQ2/3, though so don't add it to his spell-list (or maybe Orlanth Rex?).

No need to change the rules - just don't use it. It sounds ideal for that Sky Terror cult to me, so just right if you're going to play 2nd Age Godlearner stuff.
 
Doesn't sound like any spell Orlanth had in RQ2/3, though so don't add it to his spell-list
Ditch and bring back the Thunderbolt divine spell... and Sever spirit for Orlanth's Ex- brother:)
 
frogspawner said:
Doesn't sound like any spell Orlanth had in RQ2/3, though so don't add it to his spell-list

OK, then, it doesn't sound like any (battle/spirit) spell Orlanth (Adventurous) had in RQ2/3, though, so don't add it to his spell-list (unless you want it to replace the Thunderbolt divine spell give to him by RQ3, which should have been Orlanth Rex/Thunderous only IMHO).
 
Way I figure:

1: Ditch it. Its rather out of whack with most of the combat related rune magic, anyways

2: Orlanth was a thieving rogue. Figures that he went to a chaos critter of thundery doom and stole its power, giving it to his followers.
 
The fact is though, Skybolt is just one example - there are others.

The biggest problem with runes is the one that's been mentioned many times before but no-one has suggested a solution - namely, the looting of runes from your opponents.

Take a simple starting scenario, where my characters take on a band of trollkin. Even lowly trollkin should have access to a few spells (if they don't, why am I bothering to play in Glorantha?), so if my characters kill the trollkin, most if not all should have at least one rune integrated (presumably darkness in the majority of cases) that can be taken. If any of the trollkin know the Heal spell, they'll also have the Fertility rune, and so on.

Will my characters ransom surviving trollkin back to their tribe? Hell no, they want those runes, so strike several trollkin.

What if they've already got the darkness rune integrated? Doesn't matter, there must be an excellent black market for unintegrated runes that people will pay good money for.

How long will it be before all of my characters have virtually every rune integrated? Casting a spell will be like paying for fuel at a petrol station, but instead of sifting through all your hundreds of credit cards, you'll be sorting through your 'rune bag' trying to find the right lump of wood or pebble to use.

Nope, sorry, runes don't make sense as a requirement to cast spells in a world as magical as Glorantha. In a low-level magic environment I can see it might be ok, but in a land where everyone and everything has access to spells, runes are an unnecessary burden.

Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of runes of power, but not as the source of magic.
 
gamesmeister said:
What if they've already got the darkness rune integrated? Doesn't matter, there must be an excellent black market for unintegrated runes that people will pay good money for.
This is an important point, and one which seems to have been given next to no consideration when the rules were developed.

As you point out, Runes are an incentive to murder, since they can't be un-integrated by any process short of death. If you want to steal someone's Runes, you must kill them.

Also, there's a continuity problem. So, we've got all these Runes manifesting in the Second Age - what happens to them by the Third Age, when there is no sign of them in the canon? Are they an artifact of God Learner interference?

The simplest solution as far as Glorantha is concerned may just be to ignore them completely and return to the use of Focuses, except that you'd have to have a separate Spellcasting roll for each spell just like Sorcery, since Runecasting becomes moot.

The compromise, which a lot of people have suggested and which I'd tend to go for, is to remove the requirement for Rune integration when casting cult spells and use Lore (specific theology) instead of Runecasting as the spellcasting skill. So those magic-using trollkin you meet will tend only to cast spells available from Argan Argar and Xiola Umbar, which makes sense, and they won't own any Runes - if they did, wouldn't the ZZ bullies just beat them to a pulp and take the Runes for themselves?

I'd also insert rules for "loss of integration" when Runes are removed from their owner for an extended period of time.

In this way manifested Runes become a useful curiosity rather than an absolutely essential plank of the magic system, in which role they don't fit very well into Glorantha.
 
I'm inclined against the idea of using Theology for casting even cult rune magic. It's already used very sensibly for divine magic, and I think that's enough. Using it fro RM blurs the distinction between the two types of magic.

I'd either introduce a single separate Advanced skill for casting all rune magic, or go with POW x5% thus providing at least one meaningful reason for characters to maintain decent POW levels.
 
simonh said:
I'd either introduce a single separate Advanced skill for casting all rune magic, or go with POW x5% thus providing at least one meaningful reason for characters to maintain decent POW levels.
The former would be more in keeping with MRQ, the latter more "old-school". Now if we were to ditch Resilience et al in favour of POW v POW ... :twisted:
 
The former would be more in keeping with MRQ, the latter more "old-school". Now if we were to ditch Resilience et al in favour of POW v POW.

POWvs POW was so sweet and simple....

Can't remember the ins and outs of it but spirit magic reuses runemagic as one of the forms of spirit magic and allows charms to function as powerless runes... which is probably a good way to take the divine versions of Rune magic. I.e use the Gods rune as opposed to the god's runes as the source of the magic... hence the use of theology.
 
I'm not in favour of using Lore(theology) for Rune magic, as it makes it to similar to Divine magic. I don't see a particular problem with maintaining the (or at least a) link between spells and runes*, and thus still having a "Runecasting(Specific Rune)" skill - You just don't need to posess/intigrate a Rune in order to be able to cast a spell, which neatly avoids "Rune Escalation", but otherwise sticks largely to the Rules as Written.

One possible variant is rather than have several "Runecasting (Specific Rune)" skills you have one "Runecasting" skill, but still need to create some sort of "link" between you and the Rune - so although you only learn one skill, you still need to sacrifice a point of POW for each Rune you want to use it with


* Several Runes need more spells, and some spells should be available from more than one Rune (Mechanically, at least. Maybe the spells have different names/look different to observers but the effects are the same). Personally, I'm less enamoured of spells that require multiple runes to cast, I'd tend to make them either/or. There is also a possibilty that different Runes may provide the same spell but at a different cost - eg Healing works at a 1 Pow/HP from Fertility, or at 2 Pow/HP from the Man Rune when cast on Humanoids, or 2 Pow/HP from the Beast Rune on Animals (maybe 3 Pow/HP from Darkness on Trolls?)
 
simonh said:
I'd either introduce a single separate Advanced skill for casting all rune magic, or go with POW x5% thus providing at least one meaningful reason for characters to maintain decent POW levels.

You still need a reasonable POW to store the divine magic, so POW isn't a complete waste.
POW x5 is going to be quite high compared to other casting skills, in a way you might as well not bother rolling and take the RQ2 aproach, pay your points get your effect as long as your target fails to resist.

The way MRQ handles experience adding more skills is going to hammer character progress as it is, with out adding further skills - perhaps granting the runecasting skill for the cult runes is the way to go... but then not all the rune spells fit in the cult rune alignments...

Did anyone really play test MRQ?
 
gamesmeister said:
The biggest problem with runes is the one that's been mentioned many times before but no-one has suggested a solution - namely, the looting of runes from your opponents.
Yes, rune-looting would be a major problem. But I'm sure the solution has been suggested before - still, it's worth hearing again...

duncan_disorderly said:
I don't see a particular problem with maintaining the (or at least a) link between spells and runes*, and thus still having a "Runecasting(Specific Rune)" skill - You just don't need to posess/intigrate a Rune in order to be able to cast a spell, which neatly avoids "Rune Escalation", but otherwise sticks largely to the Rules as Written.
Hear, hear! I totally agree.

ninthcouncil said:
Also, there's a continuity problem. So, we've got all these Runes manifesting in the Second Age - what happens to them by the Third Age, when there is no sign of them in the canon?
My suggested solution for this is that the cults sacrifice the runes (which are crystals of divine blood) to their gods (thus creating the 'effective rune integration' link for cult members). In the First Age there may have been a bonanza of rune-crystals, but by the Second they are much rarer - and less common than Rocking Horse Poo by the Third Age.

ninthcouncil said:
I'd also insert rules for "loss of integration" when Runes are removed from their owner for an extended period of time.
I also suggest that integration of a rune-crystal (if you actually do it, given their rarity, holiness and danger) would cause the divine blood to be absorbed into the body of the 'Rune Touched' - only to re-crystalize when they die. (Did you ever find a valuable gem inside, or perhaps visible upon, a monster's body?)

Exubae said:
perhaps granting the runecasting skill for the cult runes is the way to go... but then not all the rune spells fit in the cult rune alignments...
duncan_disorderly said:
Several Runes need more spells, and some spells should be available from more than one Rune...
Agreed, again and again. I really must post a list of additional alternative runes for spells. But it'll be a long post to type - see you later...
 
Spell [MRQ Runes] + Other Alternative Runes
Babel [Disorder & Communication]
Befuddle [Disorder & (Man/Beast)] + Harmony/Moon/Chaos
Bestial Enhancement [Beast]
Bladesharp [Metal] + Mastery/Death
Bludgeon [Metal] + Darkness
Clear Path [Plant]
Coordination [Movement] + Truth
Countermagic [Magic] + Harmony
Countermagic Shield [Magic & Stasis] + Man
Cover of Night [Shadow] + Darkness
Darkwall [Darkness]
Demoralize [Disorder] + Darkness
Detect Enemy [Truth] + Beast
Detect Magic [Truth] + Magic
Detect X [Truth] + (any rune related/opposite the thing detected)
Dispel Magic [Disorder] + Magic/Man
Disruption [Disorder] + Chaos
Dragon Breath [Dragon]
Dullblade [Metal] + Darkness/Fertility
Emotion [Moon]
Endurance [Fertility]
Extinguish [Air] + Death
Fanaticism [Law] + Death
Fate [Fate]
Firearrow [Fire]
Fireblade [Fire] + Death
Frostbite [Cold]
Glamour [Harmony] + Moon
Goldentongue [Trade]
Good Fortune [Luck]
Hand of Death [Death]
Heal [Fertility] + Truth
Ignite [Fire]
Light [Light]
Mindspeech [Communication] + Truth/Trade?
Mobility [Movement] + Beast
Multimissile [Infinity]
Oath of Ordeal [Truth]
Pierce [Stasis]
Protection [Earth] + Beast/?
Repair [Metal] + Truth
Second Sight [Spirit] + Earth
Shimmer [Illusion] + Light
Skybolt [Chaos] + Air
Slow/Binding [Movement] + Beast/Stasis?
Speedart [Movement] + Plant
Strength [Beast] + Mastery?
Thunder Voice [Mastery]
Undead Bane [Death]
Versatility [Man]
Vigour [Beast] + Fertility
Warmth [Heat]
Water Breath [Water]
Spirit Bane [Spirit]
Spirit Screen [Spirit] + Fertility
(And some other spells. Call me old-fashioned...)
Food Song [-] + Plant
Sleep [-] + Harmony
Jumping [-] + Mastery/Movement
Preserve Herbs [-] + Earth/Harmony
Lantern [-] + Light
Peaceful Cut [-] + Beast
Farsee [-] + Mastery/Beast/Truth
Parry [-] + Truth
Glue [-] + Earth/Harmony
Lightwall [-] + Light/Mastery
Sneeze [-] + Chaos/Death
Detection Blank [-] + Chaos/Illusion
Stone Biting [-] + Darkness/Movement
Tree Chopping Song [-] + Darkness/Death
True Net [-] + Chaos/Fate
Image Creation [-] + Chaos/Illusion
Silence [-] + Air/Stasis

Phew. I don't have CoG1, but this seems to support the cult spell-lists from Cults of Prax/Terror (& some of GoG) quite well, if you're using the interpretation that cult runes (and, for initiates, associated cults' runes) are effectively integrated for spell learning/casting.
 
Nice one frogspawner,
Most of the Animist traditions get Charms which emulate runes, so they're sitting pretty any way.
 
frogspawner said:
My suggested solution for this is that the cults sacrifice the runes (which are crystals of divine blood) to their gods (thus creating the 'effective rune integration' link for cult members). In the First Age there may have been a bonanza of rune-crystals, but by the Second they are much rarer - and less common than Rocking Horse Poo by the Third Age.


So, not only do adventurers loot the bodies of their fallen enemies, they now have to dismember them to find any runes they may be carrying?

Somehow, I suspect that this is NOT the way to become popular...
 
Squeamish adventurers may prefer Detect Magic/Gems to dismemberment when looting bodies - I would! But it's just like a standard RQ2 chaotic feature: "valuable gem (treat as roll of 03) inside the beast". How many Ancient Treasures (d20x10,000L) might you have missed?

Anyone foolish/presumptuous enough to integrate a rune-crystal brings it upon themselves. My view is that (after the 1st Age harvest) rune-crystals would be very rare indeed, and that integrated ones could be easily located at any distance via Divination by relevant cults - and might be the target of a "Rune Quest" as a result...

Besides, I wouldn't think you'd be popular amongst your enemies for killing more of them, anyway.
 
Doing bad things to Chaos doesn't count. After all, it's CHAOS. Burning the bodies is often a good thing ( stops disease, chaos oozing, and usually regeneration ), and if you happen to fish through the ashes afterwards.....

As for finding the contents...We once defeated a cacodaemon with a gold skeleton ( forget which feature that is ). We were hugely rich...Until the ref decided that we were too rich, and had the krasht cult dig into our treasure room. ( starting a whole other series of fun and games wandering down tunnels. )

As for not being popular among your enemies for killing them anyway. I suspect it's not just your enemies that would get squeamish at you filleting the fallen. ( remember, these crystals aren't very big. So you gotta cut people up tiny to be sure you got them ).

Detect Magic...get rune, train *another* runecasting skill...
 
Nice! This is fun to debate, but distracting from the main point - Runes should be very rare and downright dangerous to integrate, so virtually no-one would do it... (except, perhaps, chaos things with a death-wish.)
 
Rare I can agree with, but dangerous? How so? Dangerous to get hold of, sure. Dangerous to keep, certainly ( know anyone who'd kill for several hundred gold in runes? ), but how are they dangerous to attune?
 
Back
Top