Critical Hits on Large Ships

[AnotherDilbert]

With the most recent rules crits are almost always Severity 1 (unless we are firing bays at 1000 dT or smaller ships, or spinals). Armoured Bulkheads do nothing against Severity 1 crits. So Armoured Bulkheads are of highly questionable utility.

How do they fare in Hybrid Damage scenario when you're firing all weapons of the same type together?

The example in the text box on p25 is wrong:

For example, a ship with 10,000 Hull points that receives a critical hit that causes 1,200 points of damage, will sustain a Severity 2 critical hit.

It should be Severity 3.

The Severity of the critical hit is equal to the damage the spacecraft has taken from the attack, divided by ten (rounding up).

Basics: A Severity 4 (or 4 Severity 1 in a single round) fuel crits will disable a ship. Presuming a warship does not carry cargo, so cannot suffer Cargo crits, a Fuel crit is 3/32 of all crits. We have 50% chance of achieving a fuel crit with 7 crits.
As a rough estimate we have a 50% chance of achieving 4 fuel crits with 43 crits.

A large particle bay will do around 8D + 8 + 6[effect] - 15 ≈ 27 damage.

A 3000 dT ship has around 1300 Hull. A Severity 4 crit is minimum 196 damage. That is about 8 large particle bays.
To get a 50% chance of disabling a small ship we can either fire 7 groups of 8 bays = 56 bays, or fire 43 bays in groups of 1.

A 110 kT ship has around 80666 Hull. A Severity 4 crit is minimum 12100 damage. That is about 450 large particle bays.
To get a 50% chance of disabling a large ship we can either fire 7 groups of 450 bays = 3150 bays, or fire 43 bays in groups of 1.

It is always better to fire large bays singly to achieve crits.

Perhaps 1% of hull per severity instead of 5% would be better?

 

[Nerhesi]

The example in the text box on p25 is wrong:

For example, a ship with 10,000 Hull points that receives a critical hit that causes 1,200 points of damage, will sustain a Severity 2 critical hit.

It should be Severity 3.

10,000 hull.
5% increments are 500 hull.
1,200 damage is 2 full increments. Therefore, severity 2.

Severity 2 seems correct? How did you calculate?

A 110 kT ship has around 80666 Hull. A Severity 4 crit is minimum 12100 damage. That is about 450 large particle bays.

It's actually a minimum 16133 damage. I see your misunderstanding now, the severity is based on FULL 5% increments (as indicated in the rules).

To get a 50% chance of disabling a large ship we can either fire 7 groups of 450 bays = 3150 bays, or fire 43 bays in groups of 1.

It is always better to fire large bays singly to achieve crits. Perhaps 1% of hull per severity instead of 5% would be better?

I think this was based on your understanding that the the crit severity was basically damage rounded up to the nearest 5%. That is incorrect, as per the rules it is indicated that it is per full 5%.

Therefore, firing any amount of large bays as single attacks will not have any chance to critical. The minimum damage required 4033 to cause even a Sev 1 critical.
This means this lovely 110kt battleship/whatever can only be crit by 150 large bays.

This generally means that it will be exceedingly difficult to critical ships above 100ktons. Issues?

Sub question: What happens if we keep it at 5% increments but drop the critical by weapon-type requirements?

 

[arcador]

Can't decide atm. The 5% makes it tough to critical at gargantuan ships, but it also makes it possible to crit using a swarm of smaller weapons (considering we drop the weapon size limitation).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Then I misinterpreted.

Critical Hits
If an attack roll against a spacecraft has an Effect of 6 or higher and it causes damage (rather than just bouncing off armour), a critical hit has been scored – some vital system has been damaged by the attack, reducing the effectiveness of the spacecraft.
...
The Severity of the critical hit is equal to the damage the spacecraft has taken from the attack, divided by ten (rounding up).

The Severity of a critical hit is based on full 5% increments of the ship’s hull value.

I thought the value ( 5% of hull ) simply replaced the value 10 in the rule from the Core book.


Note that "Large Ships" is undefined in this context, even a Mercenary Cruiser would be basically immune to crits from laser turrets with your interpretation (Hull 320 * 5% = 16, Damage: 2D + 4[triple] + 6[effect,crit] - 4[armour] ≈ 13).

This generally means that it will be exceedingly difficult to critical ships above 100ktons. Issues?

It would basically remove crits from the game. Even a 2000 dT ship could not be crit with a large particle bay. A large fusion bay might crit a 3000 dT ship, but even a single damper would stop that. Only spinals and large missile salvoes could really crit. Large missile salvoes are per definition always critical hits.

Sub question: What happens if we keep it at 5% increments but drop the critical by weapon-type requirements?

Nothing? Huge fighter squadrons (that are not allowed) might be a problem.
A quad fusion turret can do 4D + 12 + 6[effect] -12[armour], max 4 * 6 + 6 = 30 damage, a 2000 dT ship with 800 Hull cannot be crit.
A small fusion bay can do 1DD -12[armour], max 60 - 12 = 48 damage, a 10000 dT ship with 4000 Hull is certainly immune.
Missiles are a problem with this rule.

 

[Nerhesi]

So gents, I think it's key that we avoid death-by-small-crits while you still have like 80% of your hull value left. This is a good thing and currently how it stands.

However, if we do crit severity is simply based on weapon we end up large-bays crit-killing ships way above their own weight rather quickly.

Now that we've added the 5% minimum we are basically saying:

2,000 ton ships need to take 40 points of damage from an attack after armour (and it has to be small bays or better).
10,000 ton ships need to take 250 points of damage from an attack (and it has to be medium bays or better).
100,000 ton ships need to take 3333 point of damage from an attack (and it has to be from large bays or better). (basically, wont happen)

IF, and only IF we make this 1%, and only for 10,000ton+ ships:

2,000 ton ships per 10 points of damage - (no change it - just requiring bays to crit)
10,000 ton ships need to take 50 points of damage from an attack (and it has to be medium bays or better). This is 4 large bays or 6 mediums?
100,000 ton ships need to take 666 points of damage from an attack (and it has to be from large bays or better). This is what? groups of 50 large bays?

Does this return us to the state where a ship can be crit killed way before it's lose a significant hull? I''d like a second opinion.

This would be a simple change on page 25 stating "Large ships (10,000+ tons) ... blah blah ... hit is based on full XX%" - so we could look at 1% or 2% or so

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Particle Spinal: 2800 dT, 1D*1000 * 55% ≈ 1925
Large Fusion bay: 450 dT, 2D*10 + 2 - 15 ≈ 57
Large Particle bay: 450 dT, 8D + 8 + 6[effect] - 15 ≈ 27

A 100001 kT ship has 66667 Hull. It takes 35 spinal hits to kill it ( 35 * 2800 = 98000 dT of weapon ).
It takes ~14 Severity 4 crits to disable a ship.
It takes ~60 Severity 1 crits to disable a ship.
Spinal to hit: 2D +6[gunner] +5[software] +1[aid] -2[range] -3[evade] -3[dodge] = 2D+4, hit on 4+ (92%)
Large Particle bay to hit: 2D +6[gunner] +3[software] +1[accurate] +1[aid] +4[large bay] -2[range] -3[evade] = 2D+10, crit on 4+ (92%)
Large bay to hit: 2D +6[gunner] +3[software] +1[aid] +4[large bay] -2[range] -3[evade] = 2D+9, crit on 5+ (83%)


5%:
A Sev 1 crit against 100 kT is 3333 damage, about 3333 / 27 ≈ 125 Large Particle bay ≈ 56250 dT. 60 * 56 kT = 3360000 dT of weapon to disable a ship.
A Sev 4 crit against 100 kT is 13333 damage, about 13333 / 27 ≈ 500 Large Particle bay ≈ 225000 dT. 14 * 225 kT = 3150000 dT of weapon to disable a ship.

1%
A Sev 1 crit against 100 kT is 666 damage, about 666 / 27 ≈ 25 Large Particle bay ≈ 11250 dT. 60 * 11250 = 675000 dT of weapon to disable a ship.
A Sev 4 crit against 100 kT is 2666 damage, about 2666 / 27 ≈ 100 Large Particle bay ≈ 45000 dT. 14 * 45000 = 630000 dT of weapon to disable a ship.

There is no risk that crits are more effective than spinals to kill 100 kT ships even with 1%.

At around 700 kT ship spinals and Large Particle bays are about as effective with 1%.


Large Fusion bay:
Twice the damage of Particle.
To disable a ship at 1% takes 14 * 100 = 1400 hits, 1400 / 2 / 0,83 = 850 bays, 850 * 450 = 382500 dT of weapon to disable a ship. Highly susceptible to Dampers. No better than Particle.


Large Plasma-pulse bay:
Same damage as Particle, Auto 8.
To disable a ship at 1% takes 14 * 100 = 1400 hits, 1400 / 8 / 0,83 = 211 bays, 211 * 500 = 105500 dT of weapon to disable a ship. Almost as effective as spinals.

 

[arcador]

Bringing this back from the archives,

The posts on this topic leave me with the impression we can combine attacks in order to achieve a critical hit? Or do I misread somewhere?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

This is from the beta, there was some talk about a battery system for the fleet combat system.

 

[arcador]

I see,

Then back to criticals from salvos and spinals for the giant ships (as the poor Large bay can't reach the damage).

 

[Condottiere]

They are more accurate.