Geekybiker
Mongoose
Arcadia said:
I really really hate the redudancy idea actually. Makes bigs ships almost invulnerable. Though I didnt read the entire thread so maybe the idea was moderated.
Critical Hit Tables
- Thread starter Silvereye
- Start date
I really really hate the redudancy idea actually. Makes bigs ships almost invulnerable. Though I didnt read the entire thread so maybe the idea was moderated.
That is one of the big things about crits right now is they affect you for a long time or barely at all.
Things I have suggested over time to make the battles less crit dependant.
D3 for fighters.
Crits fixable the turn they happen. (Gets rid of one thing to track too.)
Make crits easier to fix. (This one has been a bit of an issue as the answer I have always gotten to crits can determine a game is that they are fixable. Not by the time most games are over.)
Change the delibilitating crits to non-total crits. (ie Speed 0 to adrift, no fire to half AD all weapons, no damage control to have to fix damage control first, seperate the no SA from other effects. Under this system the % hits and strict -x would stack.)
Remove the double/triple damage effect from crits. (this one has come up independantly from several players around our group as the skirmish ships tend to die on the first crit from a dd/td weapon. The combined damage of the attack and the crit do an instant thresholding even up to Raid often enough. This would have some larger balance issues, no denying going on.)
All of this is why Precise is such a divisive issue for us. Doubling the chance to destroy a ship is a big deal no matter how small the chance is. Precise on my Abbai has not genereated half the arguements that Precise on the Whitestar has because of the lack of TD.
Obviously all these are not necessary either. The big thing I was looking at was changing the least amount of stuff necessary to get the feel I was looking for in our games.
The big objections to all of these are that some races are crit dependant.
I believe that there would still be plenty of power in crits without giving free caf to boresights based on a lucky roll, or a sudden huge increase in firepower based on mass drivers suddenly being able to target a ship. I believe battles would feel more like victories if I did not win because I got the lucky all weapons off on the Victory in the first firing pass.
I won the first battle in the last tourney here because my Battlewagon's laser did a 6-5 crit that skeleton crewed a Secundus and a second crit Speed 0'd it. He got a 4-6 weapons off on my battlewagon the same turn. but it was irrelevant in such a small battle, I got behind him with my other ships and took three turns to kill him.
While this is anecdotal, I have found this to almost be the norm in the fights around here. A significant ship is stopped outside where the actually takes place. Or a series of skirmish ships are destroyed in quick succession by criticals rendering the boresight dependant larger ships effectively irrelevant.
I appreciate the 'use tactics' ideas, I believe I learned a lot starting in the Drazi fleet about manuever and its limits. But no amount of manuever protects ships central to the fleet from the golden beebee. Well, maybe manuever to shield special action, but that has limited usability. With fighters moving up to the front of the firing line I expect to see even more of this type of effect.
This has turned into a ramble...
Ripple
Things I have suggested over time to make the battles less crit dependant.
D3 for fighters.
Crits fixable the turn they happen. (Gets rid of one thing to track too.)
Make crits easier to fix. (This one has been a bit of an issue as the answer I have always gotten to crits can determine a game is that they are fixable. Not by the time most games are over.)
Change the delibilitating crits to non-total crits. (ie Speed 0 to adrift, no fire to half AD all weapons, no damage control to have to fix damage control first, seperate the no SA from other effects. Under this system the % hits and strict -x would stack.)
Remove the double/triple damage effect from crits. (this one has come up independantly from several players around our group as the skirmish ships tend to die on the first crit from a dd/td weapon. The combined damage of the attack and the crit do an instant thresholding even up to Raid often enough. This would have some larger balance issues, no denying going on.)
All of this is why Precise is such a divisive issue for us. Doubling the chance to destroy a ship is a big deal no matter how small the chance is. Precise on my Abbai has not genereated half the arguements that Precise on the Whitestar has because of the lack of TD.
Obviously all these are not necessary either. The big thing I was looking at was changing the least amount of stuff necessary to get the feel I was looking for in our games.
The big objections to all of these are that some races are crit dependant.
I believe that there would still be plenty of power in crits without giving free caf to boresights based on a lucky roll, or a sudden huge increase in firepower based on mass drivers suddenly being able to target a ship. I believe battles would feel more like victories if I did not win because I got the lucky all weapons off on the Victory in the first firing pass.
I won the first battle in the last tourney here because my Battlewagon's laser did a 6-5 crit that skeleton crewed a Secundus and a second crit Speed 0'd it. He got a 4-6 weapons off on my battlewagon the same turn. but it was irrelevant in such a small battle, I got behind him with my other ships and took three turns to kill him.
While this is anecdotal, I have found this to almost be the norm in the fights around here. A significant ship is stopped outside where the actually takes place. Or a series of skirmish ships are destroyed in quick succession by criticals rendering the boresight dependant larger ships effectively irrelevant.
I appreciate the 'use tactics' ideas, I believe I learned a lot starting in the Drazi fleet about manuever and its limits. But no amount of manuever protects ships central to the fleet from the golden beebee. Well, maybe manuever to shield special action, but that has limited usability. With fighters moving up to the front of the firing line I expect to see even more of this type of effect.
This has turned into a ramble...
Ripple
Morpheus1975
Mongoose
The best way for making the deadly crits harder to get is by using a D12 instead of a D6.
D6 D12
1 1-3
2 4-6
3 7-8
4 9-10
5 11
6 12
This means that the chances of a x-5 or x-6 crit are half what they used to be a x-1 or x-2 crit is 50% more likely. A x-3 and x-4 crit chances are unchanged.
Not a perfect fix but helps protect and make larger ships a little more valuable.
D6 D12
1 1-3
2 4-6
3 7-8
4 9-10
5 11
6 12
This means that the chances of a x-5 or x-6 crit are half what they used to be a x-1 or x-2 crit is 50% more likely. A x-3 and x-4 crit chances are unchanged.
Not a perfect fix but helps protect and make larger ships a little more valuable.
Morpheus1975
Mongoose
IF you think the rules are broken this will help fix it. If you think they are fine dimply don't use this idea.
Lowly Uhlan said:
I pretty much agree, as much as a pain in the backside they can be, they are random elements of war, I'm pretty amazed that all these people are winning and loosing solely on the basis of crits. I'm aware I will be shouted down, but, um, guys, B5 is a space combat game... in combat crap happens, do you think when a burning ember accidentally set light to a British warships powder room against the French in 1813, the admiralty said by jove, I don't like this crit business.
If you are scared of crits, shield big ships, close blast doors and have all hands on deck for repairs. as needs dictate. crits wortk both ways, and precise, yes, nice.... bimith, probably just as much chance of a crit with it's uber amount of dice as a drakh ship. The crit isa bit of a leveler, with no crits, or weak crits, big ships become a lot harder, and games get longer, and longer, and before you know it, it;s 4.30 in the morning, your wife has packed your bags, and you are wishing you had got that crit in his whitestar 5 hours back.
Morpheus1975 said:
I don't think the rules are broken, I quite laike the critical hit tables as they sand. But I find it could be slightly improved to accomodate other effects.
For Example:
Engine Critical Hit:
- 1-2) Power relays destroyed; -1 speed
3) Engines Damaged; -2 speed
4) Steering Thrusters Damaged; the ship looses 1 turn (to 0) and may not Come About!
5) Fuel System Ruptured; -4 speed
6) Engines Disabled; the ship is running adrift, no movement Speacial actions may be attempted.
Crew Critical Hit -> replace with Superstructure Critical Hit:
- 1-2) Fire; -
3) Multiple Fires; -1 to crew quality checks
4) Localised Decompression; <Some effect>
5) Hull Breach; <Some effect>
6) Structural Failure; +D6 damage, +D6 Crew; Ship Traits (e.g. Jump Point) destroyed on 5+
Precise could mean that you don't get the 1's and ancients could Super Precise which adds +1 to the roll, eg getting crits on 5,6.
It would be cool if crits made ships only turn one way and stuff like that.
Our modified crit chart has some that makes ships move before all others and things like that.
It would be cool if crits made ships only turn one way and stuff like that.
Our modified crit chart has some that makes ships move before all others and things like that.
can I just ask why people are so against speed zero? yes it's a ball ache, but least you know where your ship is, and hopefully it's a very inconvenient location for the enemy, if you drift you could loose a ship off the side of the table before it's repaired? and IF you do axe the speed zero crit, Narn, Brakiri Ikorta, Drazi all loose out as they have good numbers and rules for boarding, and you can't board a moving ship.
and in fact WHY, WHY the hell have you waited till AFTER armageddon is published if you all hate crits? surely when Matt said what do you want for armagedon, this could have been one of your answers!
and in fact WHY, WHY the hell have you waited till AFTER armageddon is published if you all hate crits? surely when Matt said what do you want for armagedon, this could have been one of your answers!
Yellow Beard hiffano said:
There really isn't anything wrong with the current critical hit tables, however it sometimes feels that tanking around in the movement phase with All Power To Engines, then someone shoots them out. Suddenly your at speed 0, rather then merrily drifting. Or that you can have more/better effects to some of the other enteries. As to why, we probably didn't hink about it at the time. There were more important things to get right.
Geekybiker
Mongoose
Cap'n Silvereye said:
Speed 0 just feels wrong in a space game. After all you should drift if you arent actively trying to hold position. Boarding rules just need amended to allow boarding on all adrift ships.
Morpheus1975
Mongoose
Instead of speed 0 ships drifts forwards at half speed each turn. That way he slowly may move out of a battle and also out of the game.
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