Crew Salaries

[Vormaerin]

Why assume average difficulty? Isn't most of your work actually easy for you if not down right simple? If simple your math above with an average roll is a roll of 7 skill 0 no bonus, ability average no bonus so 7-2= effect 5, 5*250 = 1250 that month. A roll of 2 might be the equivalent of laid off for that month.

How often do you actually fail at your "normal" work?

I have always been under the impression that "average difficulty" is the average difficulty of a dramatic action whose outcome is in doubt. It is not the average difficulty of doing that job under normal circumstances.

You aren't rolling a Pilot check every time you dock your spaceship or file a legal brief. If you have a Pilot 1 or Advocate 1, you can perform your skill competently and reliably. You have a professional certification if such is relevant to that career. The difficulty checks are for *when this specific instance is a dramatic moment in the story*. You check Engineering when you need to not only know if you jumped successfully, but it's important to know if you did before the missiles catch you. Or you need to know just how accurate your arrival is in time and/or space.

Medic 1 could be an EMT or a Nurse or a Doctor. In fact, it is entirely likely that an EMT might be better at first aid and trauma care than a typical doctor. Nurse and Doctors should have additional skills besides trauma care, but that's not generally useful to deal with in an RPG where no one is actually going to be acting as a Doctor as a job. Unless you are trying to do Grey's Anatomy: The RPG. But you could lump that under profession: Nurse or Profession: Physician if it was important in your game.

As a side note, I'm not fond of the argument that normal situations are "Take extra time for +2". IMHO, the task time should be the normal amount of time a person is expected to spend on the task. People should not be expected to routinely "take extra time". Or that "extra" time should be time the task is expected to take.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You can but it doesn't mean you should



The rule you cite is you CAN. You are supposed to assign an APPROPRIATE level of difficulty as GM. Do you think that average is APPROPRIATE for your success doing your normal months work? Or is it simple or maybe easy? How about for a burger flipper? What is the average burger flippers chance to fail to accomplish his work?

I don't think that the Profession skill income applies to non-PCs. Like I said earlier. It seems to be more along the lines of a day laborer. Like most rules in Traveller, it doesn't describe the world in general. It only describes how things are for PCs.

 

[hopsnbaer]

Why not? I would say that to be certified as a Rank/2 in your field that you would have to meet the qualifications. If you don't, you are not paid as a Rank/2 worker. You could have Medic/5, and Steward/1, but if your job on the ship is only as the Steward, you are not making Rank/5 pay.

From a Meta perspective Engineer 2 in 4 sub skills is actually 8 levels of skill. So they should be paid much more than Cr4,000 if they have level 2 in all Engineer skills. I don't have any issue paying for the highest Skill Level on an Engineer.

 

[hopsnbaer]

I see no reason a roll should be required for a routine use of a skill as long as the person knows it. It is just more overhead. If there is a stressful situation then the skill can be rolled.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I have always been under the impression that "average difficulty" is the average difficulty of a dramatic action whose outcome is in doubt. It is not the average difficulty of doing that job under normal circumstances.

You aren't rolling a Pilot check every time you dock your spaceship or file a legal brief. If you have a Pilot 1 or Advocate 1, you can perform your skill competently and reliably. You have a professional certification if such is relevant to that career. The difficulty checks are for *when this specific instance is a dramatic moment in the story*. You check Engineering when you need to not only know if you jumped successfully, but it's important to know if you did before the missiles catch you. Or you need to know just how accurate your arrival is in time and/or space.

You are not, because We don't know the rules for NPC pilots. We only know the rules for PC pilots. PC pilots only have to make a check when...

"The referee should only call for checks when:
• The Travellers are in danger.
• The task is especially difficult or hazardous.
• The Travellers are under the pressure of time.
• Success or failure is especially important or interesting.

Meaning, PCs do not make checks of less than Diff 10 unless they are in danger, are in a time crunch, or the success or failure of the roll is especially important or interesting.
PCs do not make checks when they are not in danger unless they are in a time crunch, if the Diff is 10 or higher, or if the success or failure of the roll is especially important or interesting.
PCs do not make checks if they have all of the time in the world unless they are in danger, the Diff is 10 or higher, or if the success or failure of the roll is especially important or interesting.
PCs do not make rolls for uninteresting or unimportant things unless the Diff is 10 or higher, they are in danger, or they are in a time crunch.

When do NPCs make checks?

As a side note, I'm not fond of the argument that normal situations are "Take extra time for +2". IMHO, the task time should be the normal amount of time a person is expected to spend on the task. People should not be expected to routinely "take extra time". Or that "extra" time should be time the task is expected to take.

Agreed.

 

[MasterGwydion]

From a Meta perspective Engineer 2 in 4 sub skills is actually 8 levels of skill. So they should be paid much more than Cr4,000 if they have level 2 in all Engineer skills. I don't have any issue paying for the highest Skill Level on an Engineer.

They are. They are paid 6,000Cr a month.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Typical Free/Far Trader engineer, does he have Engineer 1 or higher in all the relevant types of Engineer or just in one of them and gets by as Engineer 0 in the others while paid for just the one level 1 or higher Engineering skill?

So how about your Engineer 2 (Jump) who is 1 in (power plant), (M-Drive) and (Life Support), does he get paid extra just for the Jump 2 or for all the others that are above 0? What about his Mechanic 3, does it boost his wages?

 

[Terry Mixon]

Ambulance Chaser - profession, calling, or career?

Passion.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Typical Free/Far Trader engineer, does he have Engineer 1 or higher in all the relevant types of Engineer or just in one of them and gets by as Engineer 0 in the others while paid for just the one level 1 or higher Engineering skill?

Based on My previous answer above, so take it or leave it, ( ) To be a "Certified Engineer/1", he'd need a minimum of Engineer/1 in all of the Engineering Skills.

So how about your Engineer 2 (Jump) who is 1 in (power plant), (M-Drive) and (Life Support), does he get paid extra just for the Jump 2 or for all the others that are above 0? What about his Mechanic 3, does it boost his wages?

If he is the Engineer, he'd be Rank/1 and make base pay. If he was the Mechanic, he'd be Rank/3 and be making base pay +100%. If he is doing more than one job onboard the ship, he gets paid for all of them at some reduced rate. The formula is in the book, but I do not have it in front of Me at the moment to give the citation.

 

[Condottiere]

Maybe the Imperium does certification for specific starship professions.

 

[Ol'Weedy]

Ambulance Chaser - profession, calling, or career?

Parasitic Infection?

 

[rinku]

I don't think that the Profession skill income applies to non-PCs. Like I said earlier. It seems to be more along the lines of a day laborer. Like most rules in Traveller, it doesn't describe the world in general. It only describes how things are for PCs.

I'd be happy to use it for NPCs in similar circumstances. i.e. Itinerent workers. Day labourers, as you said.

 

[rinku]

As far as specialisations go, generally a crew job is for one role (Jump Drive Engineer, Life Support Engineer, Turret Gunner) so on a big ship just use the specialisation appropriate to the job. If they're in a small crew ship and have to use more than one specialisation it might be more of a negotiation anyway. But I'd go with highest skill level as a negotiating base. No Pilot (small craft) 4, Pilot (spaceship) 1 is going to get paid a premium to fly a starship just because they're a hotshot shuttle jock.

But there's a case you could make that Engineering (Jump Drive) matters more and should be the basis of the payment, since that gets actively used every jump, while any level of Engineering can keep the M-Drive, Power Plant and Life Support ticking over, and those only get used if something gets damaged or breaks down and the consequences of a fail are usually less dire than a misjump.

Actually... it pretty much only is the Engineers and maybe the Comms/Sensor/Computer crew isn't it?

 

[Condottiere]

Consequences for misjump being more consequential, than manoeuvre drive sputtering.

On the other hand, no power, no life support.

 

[rinku]

Also no Jump.

But my point was that routine-having-the-skill is sufficient for regular operation. Engineering (Power Plant) usually only comes up in combat, if the Captain wants more power, or if something gets damaged.

Definitely the second most important specialty, but you're not rolling it every jump.

And checking the full crew requirement table in High Guard, unless the ship has different categories of weapon mounts, it is only Engineering where specialties come up. Electronics (Communications) and (Computer) don't get you a job, just (Sensors).

I also noticed there's a change in text about the +50% between Core and High Guard.

Core: "Salary can vary but the values on the Crew Requirements table shows a monthly average for skill level 1 crew, with the presumption that salaries will increase by +50% for every skill level above this."

High Guard: "Salary can vary but the values on the Crew Requirements table shows a monthly average for skill level 1 crew, with the presumption that +50% will be added for every skill level above this."

I think that probably answers the original post. High Guard changes usually trump Core Book rules, so it increases in +50% of base salary increments.

 

[Vormaerin]

You have to have a very large ship before you have enough engineering crew for all those specializations. You are unlikely to see that degree of specialization is commercial operations. Military might have an MOS of "Jump Drive Technician" vs "Power Plant Engineer", but not merchants.

Aside from the confusion with crew salaries, it's bad game play. Your player who wants to be "The ship's engineer" already needs Engineering, Mechanics, and Electronics to do their job. Why do you want to make sure that they can't actually be good at Engineering by splitting the skills amongst four specializations?

Especially since one of them can be interpreted as a "Save or die" check on a regular basis, while the others would be just as important "IRL", but don't have a mechanic associated with them. Resulting in everyone who takes Engineering better specialize in Jump Drives. Which is boring. And also makes the Engineer player have a harder time being badass at their "thing".

 

[Terry Mixon]

Also no Jump.

But my point was that routine-having-the-skill is sufficient for regular operation. Engineering (Power Plant) usually only comes up in combat, if the Captain wants more power, or if something gets damaged.

Definitely the second most important specialty, but you're not rolling it every jump.

And checking the full crew requirement table in High Guard, unless the ship has different categories of weapon mounts, it is only Engineering where specialties come up. Electronics (Communications) and (Computer) don't get you a job, just (Sensors).

I also noticed there's a change in text about the +50% between Core and High Guard.

Core: "Salary can vary but the values on the Crew Requirements table shows a monthly average for skill level 1 crew, with the presumption that salaries will increase by +50% for every skill level above this."

High Guard: "Salary can vary but the values on the Crew Requirements table shows a monthly average for skill level 1 crew, with the presumption that +50% will be added for every skill level above this."

I think that probably answers the original post. High Guard changes usually trump Core Book rules, so it increases in +50% of base salary increments.

Maybe it’s just me, but both of those statements seem equally vague. Both could mean either.

 

[rinku]

You have to have a very large ship before you have enough engineering crew for all those specializations. You are unlikely to see that degree of specialization is commercial operations. Military might have an MOS of "Jump Drive Technician" vs "Power Plant Engineer", but not merchants.

I wouldn't say a VERY large ship. It's only one per 35 tons of drive; a 600 ton Subsidised Liner has three, and I'd think most of them would use their best Jump Drive guy to run the jump drive and the best power plant guy to run the power plant, regardless of job title (which might be more like "First Engineer", "Second Engineer", etc).

All three can and do maintain all systems, but you'd focus on putting your best available people for those two most critical systems. And very specifically, you would make sure that your best Engineer (Jump Drive) is on shift for when you expect to make jump. It's hard to see how they could be seen as anything other than the ship's Jump Engineer if there's more than one engineer.

I'd even go so far as to say that other things being equal (i.e. skill level), the Jump Engineer gets seniority.

 

[Condottiere]

I made up a house rule, after considering the Scout/Courier, that a dedicated engineer is only required after you have seventeen and a half tonnes of engineering.

There are likely some drives and power plants, at the low end of volume, that require less, if little, supervision.

If only to fit in with the hundred tonne trope.

 

[Vormaerin]

That's a house rule in Mongoose Traveller. It used to be that you didn't need an engineer at all unless your ship was greater than 100dtons. That was just the rule in CT. You didn't need an Astrogator unless your ship was greater than 200dtons, either. So you didn't need one on a free trader.

Large ships do require multiple engineers. But it isn't because there's one guy pushing buttons on the power plant, one guy pushing buttons on the life support, and another guy praying over the Jump drives. It is because ships have watches. You have three engineers because you have one on duty at all times. Same reason you have multiple pilots. Nobody in commercial engineering is gonna be like 'I hope that there's a power plant tech slot because I'm only trained on that'.

And it doesn't change the fact that it's bad game play even if it was the way it actually worked. The chargen does not produce characters who are able to do the "only engineer in the party" job (unless they have a massive Int or Edu) because they need to be able to make 8+or 10+ rolls on multiple specializations. "I know the life support system on Beta Canary Three is going out, but I'm just a jump drive tech. Oh, you need someone to repair your fusion reactor before it destroys the colony? Sorry, I specialized in Jump drives."

None of the other character crew roles have that problem. Pilot *might* want ship and small craft. But everyone else, one super skill covers it all (unless you are talking warships).