Creating Black Powder

[alex_greene]

So. Black powder. Would your characters use Alchemy skill - and it would have to be a skill, without the Philosopher's Stone trappings from the Renaissance SRD - to make it, or something else? How would your characters go about the process of discovering black powder in your setting?

Incidentally, you only need charcoal, sulphur and saltpetre (potassium nitrate, typically found as the nitrated potassium mineral nitre). Not exactly the most uncommon of minerals at the time.

(Big diamonds and rubies and a bamboo tube are entirely optional, of course, and really only of use if you are fighting the Gorn.)

Bear in mind the story that it was discovered apparently by accident by someone searching for the Elixir of Immortality. Which would suggest the use of Alchemy skill to me.

 

[danskmacabre]

Alchemy seems to me to make the most sense.

To actually make firearms themselves (like cannons, guns etc), I would use some sort of metallurgy skill

 

[alex_greene]

That would need smiths and metal forgers - people who, by custom, worked hand in hand with glassblowers and alchemists.

We could be on to something ...

 

[Simulacrum]

So. Black powder. Would your characters use Alchemy skill - and it would have to be a skill, without the Philosopher's Stone trappings from the Renaissance SRD - to make it, or something else? How would your characters go about the process of discovering black powder in your setting?

Incidentally, you only need charcoal, sulphur and saltpetre (potassium nitrate, typically found as the nitrated potassium mineral nitre). Not exactly the most uncommon of minerals at the time.

I have it under Alchemy - but I have also changed the RW formula for the setting so that potassium nitrate is not the required active ingredient - something more arcane and rare replaces it. This keeps it rare even if the secret of how to make it gets out.

 

[mwsasser]

But standard alchemy without AOT kinda doesn't work for chemical crafting like black powder.

Yet the AOT is very magical based and seems to lack mundane types of crafting. No poisons, black powder or other non-magical drafts are covered if I recall correctly.

Making basic soap for instance should be covered in one of them shouldn't it? I'd be estatic to see one of them expanded for non-magical stuff. Costs for making black powder should be an option too I'd think.

 

[alex_greene]

It depends on what you understand alchemy to be.

Primarily, alchemy was an investigative science - the precursor to modern chemistry. Historically, the alchemists' trade involved research into the basic properties of matter, and a lot of early chemical elements and substances that we take for granted came from alchemical experimentation.

Phosphorus, for instance, was discovered by an early alchemist. Similarly, the discoveries of substances such as arsenic eventually paved the way for the discoveries of the Enlightenment, leading ultimately to the Periodic Table of the Elements.

At the very least, the Alchemy skill could be used to analyse a sample of an unknown substance to determine its constituents, thus determining answers to questions such as where it came from, how it was made and so on.

 

[Simulacrum]

But standard alchemy without AOT kinda doesn't work for chemical crafting like black powder.

Yet the AOT is very magical based and seems to lack mundane types of crafting. No poisons, black powder or other non-magical drafts are covered if I recall correctly.

Making basic soap for instance should be covered in one of them shouldn't it? I'd be estatic to see one of them expanded for non-magical stuff. Costs for making black powder should be an option too I'd think.

Poisons are included in AoT Alchemy - but that's one area where non-exotic/magical poisons can also be made using the same system but applying the more mundane Craft (Apothecary) as the 'making' skill governed by the Lore (Poisons) discipline. I'd do the same with simple medicines, using Lore (Remedies) as the knowledge to put non-magical compounds together with the Craft (Apothecary) skill. Soap likewise - but I'm not sure what I'd call the lore that belongs to, off the top of my head. Lore (Cleaning Products) doesn't sound like a lot of fun, unless you work for Proctor and Gamble.

A fourth alchemy discipline, referred to in draft as Lore (Concoctions) is in the companion book draft for making things like black powder, smoke bombs or any other substance based creation that has a physical effect. One NPC has been given Lore (Gunpowder) because it is the only bit of this lore he knows, or is ever likely to. There is also a lot more on crafting in the Age of Treason Companion (which is about 2-3 months away from print AFAIK), because it has rules on Artifice. I may also add some stuff on making money out of crafting to the chapter on money, trade and commerce, as the economics of running a farm are already there.

Generally AoT makes a lot of use of Extended Task crafting rules, which appeared in Arms and Equipment II, and will, I presume, also be in Arms of Legend. If not the rules are outlined in the text where they are needed, so it's no bother. Incidentally Extended Task rules are also used for things like Seduction and Research. They add more 'game' challenge and more narrative to what are otherwise mundane downtime activities.

 

[mwsasser]

Hmm... When is Arms and Equipment 2 supposed to be out? Is that one of yours too?

 

[Mixster]

Lore chemistry, alchemy or whatever seems like it could govern the knowledge of chemistry in your setting seems fine to me to create both soap and blackpowder.

If people want to invent new stuff it gets kindda weird. Because how far will you allow them to go? In most fantasy settings I "could" quite easily make an airplane, but wouldn't it be a bit weird if the adventurers attacked their enemies with B52 bombers because their players where actually from the 21st century so logically they know how a lot of stuff works that just didn't exist 700 years ago.
On the other hand, Da Vinci did make drawings for airplanes, he just never made them, so they could be made by adventurers with the right resources/magic.

 

[Simulacrum]

Hmm... When is Arms and Equipment 2 supposed to be out? Is that one of yours too?

Not one of mine but a reissue of the MRQ2 book authored by Loz in digest format under Legend branding (as Arms of Legend) - and I'm not sure what will stay and what will go. Check the Mongoose release schedule for when it might appear. Unless I'm going nuts I'm sure it was scheduled for the none too distant future.

 

[DrBargle]

If people want to invent new stuff it gets kindda weird. Because how far will you allow them to go? In most fantasy settings I "could" quite easily make an airplane, but wouldn't it be a bit weird if the adventurers attacked their enemies with B52 bombers because their players where actually from the 21st century so logically they know how a lot of stuff works that just didn't exist 700 years ago.

If players really refused to distinguish between character and player knowledge in this fashion, the most apt ruling would be to allow them to build the aeroplane, but reduce all their combat skills, lore skills, custom skills, craft skills down to the level appropriate for an early 20th Century roleplayer!

Aside from that, it seems obvious to me that mudane alchemy would be a combination of Lore and Craft skills (Craft only if the character is only a 'technical'). These could be a broad or narrow as background would suggest. As for novel invention - most fantasy gameworlds take the Dark or Middle Ages as their analogue, not a hotbed of innovation and invention. I'd suggest that inventing something completely novel would require the equivalent sort of skill checks as you might make conducting an epic quest, over at least an equivalent time-frame, frobably much longer (and far less exciting), with most attempts destined to fail, probability-wise.

In a game set in an age of invention and advance, creating something novel should be easier, to represent the spirit of the time.

 

[randalzy]

This should provide some insight to those who attempt to build modern devices in a medieval setting


http://www.thetoasterproject.org/

 

[mwsasser]

I'm not chasing modern devices in medieval eras. Certain things existed and were available even if they weren't widely so... and soap was certainly available. In the 14th century black powder became widely available for military uses and was certainly around before then. Poison has been around since men have or women... take your pick.

 

[Mixster]

This should provide some insight to those who attempt to build modern devices in a medieval setting


http://www.thetoasterproject.org/

Trust me when I say it gets a lot easier with magic :wink:

If players really refused to distinguish between character and player knowledge in this fashion, the most apt ruling would be to allow them to build the aeroplane, but reduce all their combat skills, lore skills, custom skills, craft skills down to the level appropriate for an early 20th Century roleplayer!

This made me chuckly, but I somewhat agree.

However, this doesn't quite adress the problem. I mean I put forth an extreme to show where you probably shouldn't allow people to go, but there are lesser extends of this, examples include, but are not limited to:

1. Let's assume we are in the ancient world, about 1200bc, at the siege of troy one of the players say: Hey guys, they didn't fall for the horse, so shouldn't we make a Trebuchet? Despite the trebuchet probably being invented some 800 years later, they certainly have the resources for it, and the idea isn't that far fetched.
2. The players live in the late medieval times, and come upon an old Aeolipile (ancient steam engine made for fun, invented in the 1st century AD by Heron). And one of the players say, wait what if we use this to pull something, and the other says, yeah like a rudder for a boat. Bing, they've invented the steamboat about 800 years before it's meant to.

How would you handle these situations?
Would you in both situations have players state: Well I'll look into new ways of Artillery/Locomotion, and have them roll the skills. Or would you have them say what they are inventing exactly? How their characters got the inspiration for it?

What if the aeolipile was there as part of a campaign (or actually as an item, you can get it in Deus Vult), and the players decided to attach a rope so it could pull a load for them, would that be okay? What if it wasn't driven by steam but by magic? Would it make a difference?

The problem is, there is a very fine line between what is player knowledge, and what somebody who's very intellectual (like Intelligence of 18) can actually logically conclude.
Anyway these questions are mostly to educate me and to show you the thought process behind my previous statement.

 

[randalzy]

However, this doesn't quite adress the problem. I mean I put forth an extreme to show where you probably shouldn't allow people to go, but there are lesser extends of this, examples include, but are not limited to:

1. Let's assume we are in the ancient world, about 1200bc, at the siege of troy one of the players say: Hey guys, they didn't fall for the horse, so shouldn't we make a Trebuchet? Despite the trebuchet probably being invented some 800 years later, they certainly have the resources for it, and the idea isn't that far fetched.
2. The players live in the late medieval times, and come upon an old Aeolipile (ancient steam engine made for fun, invented in the 1st century AD by Heron). And one of the players say, wait what if we use this to pull something, and the other says, yeah like a rudder for a boat. Bing, they've invented the steamboat about 800 years before it's meant to.

How would you handle these situations?
Would you in both situations have players state: Well I'll look into new ways of Artillery/Locomotion, and have them roll the skills. Or would you have them say what they are inventing exactly? How their characters got the inspiration for it?

I think that, for this situations, a proper character or kind of character is needed, and is not the typical fighter. An alchemist or engineer, dedicated to alchemy or engineering (and not to dungeon crawling ). For example, reading "The Pillars of the Earth", the main character discovers or invent some stuff with what could be "divine/GM intervention", but reading "Azogue" (1) or "Cryptonomicon" I don't have the same impression with Newton, Waterhouse or Alan Turing.

So, I'm not against to invent trebuchets 800 years before it's time, but that character should be as impressive with Maths and inventing stuff as Conan is fighting and Elric summoning demons.

edit to add: (1) I mean "Quicksilver", sorry, multiple languages fighting in my brain

 

[mwsasser]

What does any of this have to do with the thread title of Creating Black Powder. The intention of this thread was to determine completely different things, please take this side conversation to a new thread.

 

[randalzy]

well, to create black powder in a setting/age/world where black powder is not discovered/in use, you need:

1) the fact that the world where the setting is located has the components of black powder (if the game is set in the surface of the sun, for example, and the players are a sentient race made of energy, probably the black powder can not be created in that setting)

2) similar physics law to allow the existence of explosions, combustion, etc etc
(if the game is set in a unidimensional world where the characters are dots in a line, maybe the physics are weird enough to allow explosions)

3) the actual components of black powder

4) mix and have fun

5) probably, a test environment or an hospital


If a game is set in a fantasy-medieval setting, the process is more or less what we were talking, how to interpret such a discovery that is "trivial" by player's knowledge but difficult and undiscovered to character's knowledge. And there is a ramification of that, the player's can known that black powder is possible, put the (secure) process to obtain is not trivial. Even construct a trebuchet, or a toaster, or the first pistol in the world, requires a certain level of ingeniering, testing, gathering materials, probably mining if yo need strange components, a lab, other investigators, testers (¿adventurers maybe?, now that's interesting).

I think that, if a player read "how to make black powder" in wikipedia or a book, goes the the next game session and says "my characters wants to buy this materials and discover blackpowder with an alchemy test", something is wrong.

 

[alex_greene]

I thought of it like this.

The characters could discover black powder by accident in the lab, while working on a more advanced form of fertiliser for fields. A chance discovery that nitre ground up and mixed into potting soil produces particularly strong, healthy plants might lead a keen alchemist to mix up different compounds to see if this experiment can be replicated.

One face sans eyebrows later, and a great discovery is made ...

The process of discovery could involve a lot of Perception skill, observing the world around as it unfolds without using any kinds of magical skills to alter the world in some way.

I only brought up the idea of an Alchemy skill rather than Craft (alchemy) because Alchemy has traditionally had two branches, broad enough to warrant becoming specialities of the root Alchemy skill - investigative and synthetic.

The discovery of how the phenomena of Nature work, and the quest to replicate essential ingredients or chemical extracts from various substances for various purposes, from the extraction of a new kind of metal from an ore previously undiscovered to the distillation of the oil responsible for the scent of roses in quantities large enough to make the sale of that oil to the perfumery industry an economic possibility.

And on the way, the alchemists would come up with various and sundry materials which would change the world in many ways, such as a synthetic blue pigment.

On a separate note ... My bad. Lousy timing on my part in putting up posts.

 

[mwsasser]

I'm sorry but I thought the purpose the thread was to determine skills needed and information related to that said skill. Perhaps a separate thread is needed for the theory of how things are discovered?



Edit: I hate it when somebody else posts a message the same time you do and it looks like you are replying to them when you aren't. I think Alex has done that twice to me in the last couple of weeks. Quit that!

 

[randalzy]

For skills, chemistry.

If chemistry is not defined in the game's world (for example, in our history, Chemistry as we know it is defined around 1660), then Alchemy. It's basically the same.

For difficulties and bonus, discover new things is always much more complicated than replicate things that other made (it applies to black powder also). If you have some clues, it's better (for example, someone else did it before). If you've seen other doing it, it's better.