Countdown!!

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Cosmic Mongoose
so then, Jan 31st, s+p released feb 1st WITH Pak Stats.
will they be good, will they be bad, will they amaze, will they terrify, or will they smell a bit fishy? I'm intrigued it has to be said, I'm even tempted (despite my mass lurgy) to stay up until S+P goes live so I can see the stats.
Then I can read the gasps, cries, angry fist shaking, or bed wetting of everyone else who reads them ;-)
 
I vote for a bit fishy :lol:
They won't be available on the ship viewer til after the weekend I'm afraid, since I'm at Conception from tonight til Sunday night.
 
I swear you have our web site on your screen permanently, and constantly hit refresh. . .

He's not the only one... :wink: Of course my actual job kept me from seeing this one when LBH did. Pesky work, always getting in the way.
 
While I wish there were more original Pak ships, this will probably become my second fleet(sorry my poor one fifth done Centauri fleet, you'll just have to wait until after I build my Pak fleet).
 
I really do like the supermerchant.

Just wondering how come the sunhawk in their hands is a good ship and in the drazi hands sucks. =( Warbird is at least a coin toss depending on how you feel about beam.

That save on a 6 is gonna be killer on the ships that already have high hull and possibly interceptors.

Ripple
 
I would like to see the resh'kas'u carrier and the Thar'not'ak Cruiser also, especially the cruiser - thats a cool looking ship.
 
The Porfatis system patrol boat is definetily a different take on a fighter, surpised by the high hull rating and awful dodge. I was expecting hull 5 and dodge 5+ a bit like the sky serpent and a few less per wing. But definetly different and not your typical fighter :) Urik'hal supermerhcant is pretty good, that plasma torpedo is nasty!! triple damage on a raid ship!! Plus good secondary's. The Urik'Hal convoy guardian is real nasty - banks and banks of 16AP Heavy Plasma Cannon.. eek!! Plus if needed 8AD of Triple Damage!! Plus respectable anti-fighter defenses and good crew/damage scores - a tough war level ship!! :D
 
msprange said:
lastbesthope said:
Me too, S&P 41, both editions, is up for download early.

I swear you have our web site on your screen permanently, and constantly hit refresh. . .

And your point would be what exactly? :lol:

I'm 2 or 3 months behind on my reading and shipviewer updating if it makes you feel any better.

LBH
 
They look too powerful. Really. What am I missing. Their ships are great - all of them.

Tell me this isn't a GW-like trick to sell models.
 
animus said:
They look too powerful. Really. What am I missing. Their ships are great - all of them.

Tell me this isn't a GW-like trick to sell models.

Well, look at it this way. If we were going to deliberately over power a race. . . it wouldn't be the pak'ma'ra :)
 
animus said:
They look too powerful. Really. What am I missing. Their ships are great - all of them.

Tell me this isn't a GW-like trick to sell models.

Well, they will almost certainly lose initiative every turn, and they are unlikely to succed with many of their crew quality tests.

Maybe 4 flights of Porfatis are a little much per choice, and the Pshul´Shi would still be good with 2 to 4 less AD on his plasma cannons, , but the ships are incredibly vulnerable against breaching pods; they have no carriers of any kind, and the already mentioned problems with initiative and crew quality tests...

I´d say they should be balanced. But I also consider the fleet list more an "open beta test" for 2nd edition, so there should be changes down the road.

The Pak ships are great, but their Crews don´t really know how to fly them - how Pak´Ma´Ra-esque... 8)
 
I have some observations:

I don't buy the breaching pods idea one bit. It's not like we've seen itw rok as a cloud against the ISA at any point.

For one-offs, I see few problems. The Urik'hal (sp?) is deceptively large and has serious firepower, but its turning velocity and interceptibility plus its almost total inability to come about suggest simple solutions (not proven over the board yet.) The Warbird I've already simmed out 3-4 times, and, while mean by any standard, it's reasonable. I worry a bit about the modified Ikorta. The Sunhawk looks positively abusable, but again, it needs to be proven out over the board to me.

The Por'fa'tais is bad, but possibly manageable by certain races with ease.

My problems start with the P'shul'shi. It is, with the initiative difference, granted, a vastly overgunned Mankhat. Better damage tracks, better firepower --- even after Masters of Destruction --- similar speeds and weapon layouts. The Disruption Torpedo suite is dramatically outclassed by the Plasma (called 'em Fuser Torpedoes -- that's what they are!) Torpedo system. All of this on a ship of roughly twice the size of the Mankhat. No way the Mass Driver is enough to make up for the difference. (I don't consider the Mishakur, as we know that command is regularly overpriced; see the Command Hyperion, original Command Omega, Poseidon, ). I think the Mankhat is a somewhat weak War hull, but not dramatically so; the issue is probably the P'shul'shi itself. Any time you Out-Dilgar the Dilgar, you've got a problem. One or two of the Dilgar ships are on the bloody edge of balanced in the first place.

In campaign games I expect these ships to be outright busted. The ability to relatively easily (just retreat from a few early fights and take your 1 XP pt/ship) upgrade crew qualities -- you have a 50% chance for one die spent each turn -- will remove the most harmful effects from the Pak way too quickly. The hardiness of these ships is offset by their almost total inability to repair criticals, come about (critically important in the case of the Urik'hal), maneuover to shield, dogfight (net -2: the Por'fa'tais is -1, plus the 3 CQ vs. the 4), or use any eventual scouting function. They further have a duty that is realitively easy to get that allow you to AUTOMATICALLY win initiative the first turn removes their last balance mechanism. This may be as busted as the Drakh's Keeper selection, but the Drakh get that on a 3; you get the initiative win on the more probable 10. If you don't think so, consider what winning initiative with large squadrons of Ikortas might look like. Finally, adding even 1 interceptor to a ship with none is a huge upgrade, available as a new layered defense on top of internal redundancy is a potentially disproportionate upgrade (and the only reason I have any qualms about the Ikorta -- otherwise, it's just fine.) The campaign aspects of this race I seriously question, but for one offs, it seems fine, if a bit twitchy at the edges (Sunhawk and P'shul'shi).
 
Right, i didn´t think of damage control and a missing scout in the first place, but the Paks are lacking in those points, too...

As for campaigns, I´m not quite satisfied with the refits and duties tables, either. Winning initiative on the first turn could be hard on the opponent, especially with a torpedo-heavy fleet. Apart from that, there´s not much "in character" on the list (I´m thinking of the Brakiri day of the dead or the green and purple result of the Drazi). I´d like to see something like "repulsive eating habits" or "tastes like chicken" on the list, just for the fun of it...

Still, there are certain strengths in the fleet list, but also severe weaknesses... but CZuschlag has a point or two here.
 
Now that I've seen that it should be understood that you can freely mix the Pak'ma'ra with other League elements, I have to amend my viewpoint:

If you consider the League was fair before, then the Pak breaks it. Animus has the right of it. On their own, my comments above hold, but the synthesis with the other elements of the League is beginning to be disconcerting, espeically with (no surprises here!!) Vree scouts.

Initiative penalties really aren't so big a deal on core ship elements if you have sufficient initiative sinks to cover up for them. If the ship was the central point, the onlythings you need CQ for are typically Damage Control and an occasional Come About (for Fleet Carriers, it's Scramble!). Wing elements frequently need such checks -- attempts to come about to get to the fight in question and such -- but the core usually has the opposing center lined up somewhere against them. This means the only problem with the P'shul'shi is Damage Control -- I real concern, but given its capabilities as compared to a simiarly design-philosophy vessel, the Mankhat, I doubt that'll cause any tears. And, again, the upgrade over the current option, the Tashkat, is substantial.

When you include a Pak ship in your fleet, you are admitting to the -3. I get that. But, you lose some of the impact of this when you make boatloads of Sunhawks viable buys. And make no mistake, the Pak Sunhawk is a pure upgrade to the Drazi Sunhawk.The ability to engage repeatedly at range with heavy firepower instead of only once or twice given the Sunhawk's range limitations is a major change.

Most mixed League fleets were losing in the initiative column often anyways -- the scouts the Vree provided were just too much a draw to deny, so you took the +0. That's already a hard road to climb to win inititative; by going to the Pak, you're just admitting to the likely loss. And, the option to have large numbers of patrol craft (Sunhawks again!) blunt this impact substantially.

My concern about bad Pak scouts is, of course, pointless -- you only buy Vree scouts. Simiarly, dogfighting isn't an issue -- you only buy Tzymm for this. This leads to my concern about the large quantities of Fuser Torpedoes -- consider that it will, likely, have a CAF effect that the Vree scout will generate. You now have, by far (I can't think of a single ship that comes close) the best attack Patrol craft, far outclassing the Sho'Kov or the only other viable option I can think of, the Hermes, by a goodly amount, paired with the best scouts in the game.

Of course, the Ikorta issue goes away --- you always just buy the (also dubious) Brikorta with its shiny new Laser anyways. I expect the new Halik to be a wash, but the Haltona is not to see the board again -- if you want that philosophy, just by the Pak Halik.

So, the balance question has been transformed: were the League weak and needed a balance upgrade that the P'shul'shi and gthe Sunhawk provide?? I hadn't heard this argument from the community as a whole before. I doubt I buy it.
 
MustEatBrains said:
"tastes like chicken"

*giggles a lot*

I was looking at the Pak stats and it strikes me that the weapons are very much divided into clear "anti big stuff", "anti small stuff" and "anti fighter"... Anti-fighter on everything though! It's going to be difficult for fleets like EA to get close...
 
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