Countdown!!

[Triggy]

Right, i didn´t think of damage control and a missing scout in the first place, but the Paks are lacking in those points, too...

As for campaigns, I´m not quite satisfied with the refits and duties tables, either. Winning initiative on the first turn could be hard on the opponent, especially with a torpedo-heavy fleet. Apart from that, there´s not much "in character" on the list (I´m thinking of the Brakiri day of the dead or the green and purple result of the Drazi). I´d like to see something like "repulsive eating habits" or "tastes like chicken" on the list, just for the fun of it...

Still, there are certain strengths in the fleet list, but also severe weaknesses... but CZuschlag has a point or two here.

All very good points. Frankly as far as I was concerned (and I think everyone else too) the Pak'ma'ra were only balanced as a stand alone fleet (there wasn't enough time to do a full test with all variants with the 2nd ed stuff going on too). This release is an "extended test" of sorts and some issues like this are bound to come up. For now, I think you are able to do it but unless being competative, then I'd stick to the Pak'ma'ra on their own for now.

My personal preference is that by 2nd ed. the League won't be able to mix quite so freely both because of the sorts of combinations you've pointed out and because each fleet is a lot more potent on its own (i.e. they will be expanded out to be competative on their own). We haven't come to these lists yet so can't say for certain.

 

[animus]

I wouldn't mind losing the League combination. The powers usually fought independently and on their own even against each other unless some super enemy was threatening (Shadows, Centauri). Fleshing them all out to be independent is great.

Still, the Pak seem too tough to me having just lost a Morgrath horribly.

 

[Obsidian]

A question for CZuschlag.

What would you put together as a 5 point raid fleet for the Pak'ma'ra? I'm looking to find something that clearly shows them as being broken so as to prove/disprove your initial thoughts on them. I was thinking something like 2 Urik'hal, 2 Ikorta, and 8 Sunhawks.

 

[CZuschlag]

Just some initial thoughts:

13 Sunhawks, 2 Vaarls:
Should get a scouted redirect, and the expected first turn yield is 65 pts (including critical effects) against Hull 5, probably enough to doom at least 1 Raid and 1 Skirmish on turn one. 26 Torpedoes should be scary!

15 Sunhawks:
I actually think this is inferior to the above, but you may want to try to see the impact of inclusion of the rest of the League.

1 Vaarka, 9 Warbirds:
Gives up substantial firepower, but far more survivable.

2 Vaarl, 8 Sunhawks, 5 Warbirds:
Armageddon breakdowns are your friends. Powergaming at its finest.

1 Vaarl, 9 Sunhawks, 5 Brakiri Brikorta:
We already know the new Brikorta is brutal. 18 Torpedoes plus 10 shiny new lasers .... serve warm.
Right you are, Ken.

These are just first attempts. The annoyance factor in trying to kill all these things could be extreme. Your best matchups are probably against the Raiders, Dilgar, and (perhaps) Minbari.

 

[angstpuppet]

I hope they don't break up the League in second edition. Having to turn all of my seperate League races into viable fleets would take me forever. There are 3 other people that have collected League in my group and all of them would have to choose which fleet to focus on if the combined League force goes away. This would be difficult for some of them. Besides the League still has enough penalties to make a combined League fleet somewhat balanced. I am sure that there are more League players out there in the same position.

 

[Balance]

I would be surprised if they broke up the league. It's a very neat idea, I think. Basically a very different list if played as one race or multiple.

 

[CZuschlag]

Given already-made fleet investments, I agree here with Angstpuppet. Nothing worse than being forced to buy a stack of new figs just to keep up with new editions of a game at all (WarZone v3 and its new squad sizes and army organizations, I'm talking about you, here!). That smacks of Bait and Switch. Shadow players already have reason to moan about this, especially what shapes up to be a burgeoning trade in Shadow Hunters to EA players .... in exchange for Gosh knows what.

On the other hand, as fleet rosters just get bigger, especially in the case of the League, you need to consider what the pieces/parts integrated together can do, as well as the individual elements. Tactically, this is almost impossible. We have two flavours of League, homogenous fleets, and heterogeneous fleets. Which one are we to balance? Interesting game philosophy question. We can't claim to be balancing both, as a homogenous fleet of the lowest-initiative race is almost necessary weaker than a mixed fleet that includes the lowest-initiative race ... unless class-for-class, those ships of the least initiative are at least marginally better than the those with higher initiatives, and in the case of scouting capabilities, that clearly isn't going to be true here.

I favour balancing the heterogeneous fleets, but I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise, and look forward to a compelling argument of such a nature. Help?

 

[emperorpenguin]

The League is going nowhere, don't worry.

 

[Triggy]

My point about the League is more to encourage single-race selections as being competative lists to take, with a mixed-League maybe not being able to take advantage of some of the more potent combinations with barely a drawback. I too am very much in favour of the League existing in a similar form to present.