Core Rulebook 1st ed. Equipment/Vehicles

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

Looking at the Core Rulebook 1st ed. Equipment/Vehicles Table on p. 103 there appears to be some things missing or unclear.

1. Why are the air/raft and ATV the only two vehicles available in the Spacecraft Design Vehicles and Drones Table p. 111?

2. Where is the information about how much space and/or weight the vehicles cost?

3. Is the Grav Floater the same thing as a CT Speeder and why is the TL 11?

4. Is the Grav Floater's Cost really Cr500?

5. Why is the G/Carrier a TL 15 device?

 

[Reynard]

"1. Why are the air/raft and ATV the only two vehicles available in the Spacecraft Design Vehicles and Drones Table p. 111?"
They were the iconic explorer vehicles. Not to hunt down all the Classic books right now but I think they originally eyeballed the sizes at about 2x3 squares.

2. Where is the information about how much space and/or weight the vehicles cost?
That would be the Vehicle Handbook.

3. Is the Grav Floater the same thing as a CT Speeder and why is the TL 11?
The Grav Floater is a simple one person floating platform for tooling around town without walking. The CT speeder is the sports car of grav vehicles. Very different.

4. Is the Grav Floater's Cost really Cr500?
If I built it from the construction rules in Vehicle Handbook, it probably is close. Even a Ground Effect Bike is 25K! Grav modules I guess aren't cheap.

5. Why is the G/Carrier a TL 15 device?
Best of the best then and now. In the text on Page 103, they list the Fusion Gun as a TL 15 weapon. All it takes on a vehicle or ship is one high TL item.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Reynard,

Thank you for another response to my questions.

"1. Why are the air/raft and ATV the only two vehicles available in the Spacecraft Design Vehicles and Drones Table p. 111?"
They were the iconic explorer vehicles. Not to hunt down all the Classic books right now but I think they originally eyeballed the sizes at about 2x3 squares.

Yes, I agree that the air/raft and ATV are the ionic explorer vehicles. However, CT Book 2 1977/81 Starships broke the ATV into wheeled and tracked, had the speeder, and G-Carrier. CT Book 3 Worlds and Adventures added a couple more to the list in CT Book 2. I've checked the Core Rulebook 1st ed. Vehicles table and I thought about adding the ones not listed on the table on p. 111.

2. Where is the information about how much space and/or weight the vehicles cost?
That would be the Vehicle Handbook.

I do not have a copy of the book, since in mid-2009 I lost my job which put a damper in purchasing gaming material. Not to mention that I get distracted by the other Traveller rule sets or a number of other games on the market. Well, that puts a a halt to using the vehicles from p. 103.

3. Is the Grav Floater the same thing as a CT Speeder and why is it TL 11?
The Grav Floater is a simple one person floating platform for tooling around town without walking. The CT speeder is the sports car of grav vehicles. Very different.

After posting the quest I checked out Core Rulebook 2nd ed. and figured that out for myself.

4. Is the Grav Floater's Cost really Cr500?
If I built it from the construction rules in Vehicle Handbook, it probably is close. Even a Ground Effect Bike is 25K! Grav modules I guess aren't cheap.

I checked out the price for a grave floater in Core Rulebook 2nd ed. the new price is Cr24,000. This is a more reasonable price considering the grav belt is Cr100,000. The 2nd ed. G/Bike is Cr46,000. The CT Book 2 1977/81 Speeder is Cr1,000,000.

5. Why is the G/Carrier a TL 15 device?
Best of the best then and now. In the text on Page 103, they list the Fusion Gun as a TL 15 weapon. All it takes on a vehicle or ship is one high TL item.

I missed that rule in MgT design. On second thought I probably continued to use the CT rule sets that the hull set the TL into which other equipment of different TLs would go into.

Again thank you for the help.

 

[Reynard]

"Yes, I agree that the air/raft and ATV are the ionic explorer vehicles. However, CT Book 2 1977/81 Starships broke the ATV into wheeled and tracked, had the speeder, and G-Carrier. CT Book 3 Worlds and Adventures added a couple more to the list in CT Book 2. I've checked the Core Rulebook 1st ed. Vehicles table and I thought about adding the ones not listed on the table on p. 111."

Two things common to Traveller... mostly. Keep Things Simple and give the players choices. Rather than writing descriptions for EVERY variation, you are given the most common configuration so the air/raft and the ATV became the standard options. Just as with todays cars, you are allowed to take other options if there's room and you have the credits. I'm sure the dealer would love to sell you a G-carrier!

"I do not have a copy of the book, since in mid-2009 I lost my job...."

I know your pain. Been out of work since 2009 too. Core book is still quite playable on such a budget.

 

[Condottiere]

The Classic is still playable. Mongoose opens up options.

You can justify standardization in that patents for most stuff tech level twelve and below are expired, if not ignored, and that the Imperium established templates distributed to all public databases for many technical products. It certainly makes three dee manufacturing easier.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again Reynard,

"Yes, I agree that the air/raft and ATV are the ionic explorer vehicles. However, CT Book 2 1977/81 Starships broke the ATV into wheeled and tracked, had the speeder, and G-Carrier. CT Book 3 Worlds and Adventures added a couple more to the list in CT Book 2. I've checked the Core Rulebook 1st ed. Vehicles table and I thought about adding the ones not listed on the table on p. 111."

Two things common to Traveller... mostly. Keep Things Simple and give the players choices. Rather than writing descriptions for EVERY variation, you are given the most common configuration so the air/raft and the ATV became the standard options. Just as with todays cars, you are allowed to take other options if there's room and you have the credits. I'm sure the dealer would love to sell you a G-carrier!

"I do not have a copy of the book, since in mid-2009 I lost my job...."

I know your pain. Been out of work since 2009 too. Core book is still quite playable on such a budget.

My observation is that the few player groups I was in we punched holes in "Keep Things Simple" which often threw the referee a curve ball causing revisions to get us back on tract. In CT Books 2 and 5 there are more than the two MgT ship's vehicles that players can choose from for ground and air transport. Okay, the air/raft is the only air transport listed you have to dig in CT Book 3 to get a wider range of transports.

Having retired from the USN, loosing the job was not really that bad, unfortunately I was not very smart on some money matters which took until 2014 to straighten out. Now, I'm better off and doing better with my money, I'll have to start allocating funds for new Mongoose products.

How a good one.

 

[Reynard]

The point is it starts very basic then lets the players say "Can we get this unit? We have the money." to which the Referee checks the book(s) and the money then decides how easy the purchase is plus a possible resale of an old ship's vehicle. The players shouldn't be 'throwing curve balls' and it should not be that confusing to decide on the purchase.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Reynard,

I seem to have issues using Firefox when I'm making a reply, this is the second attempt even though my first appeared to have a successful post.

The point is it starts very basic then lets the players say "Can we get this unit? We have the money." to which the Referee checks the book(s) and the money then decides how easy the purchase is plus a possible resale of an old ship's vehicle. The players shouldn't be 'throwing curve balls' and it should not be that confusing to decide on the purchase.

The options available for spacecraft design limits the options to an air/raft or an ATV, while in Equipment/Vehicles there are additional options. An AFV is a modified ATV effectively or have an unarmed G/Carrier.

Yes, the players going on a shopping spree during a campaign/scenario has to go through the Referee's NPC to pick up the unit which may be a deal or they get ripped off.

Keeping things simple, in my opinion, does not include limiting options in one chapter when another chapter has more options.

My curve ball comment met that players more often than not do not follow the script as the Referee had sketched out. The tangent that the players go off on usually has the Referee trying to rewrite on the fly.

 

[Reynard]

Okay, you said it yourself, the players and the referee seem to be the issue, not Traveller. And also realize nowhere in the game is a rule that says you can't do things your way rather than the way its set up in the book. Go grab a vehicle from the equipment section and substitute for what on the ship, calculate the new price and adjust the space to hold it. Players happy, referee less harried.

If the ref makes getting an item a hassle it's either part of the adventure or the ref isn't sure how to handle a situation that might upset players. Not the game fault and can be a learning experience in gaming manners. And sometimes an encounter isn't perfect if the spare ship parts dealer can outdo a jedi.

Speaking of learning experiences, players not following script is probably as old as gaming. Sometimes it's inexperience with gaming social behavior or gamers just want to be jerks. I know that one too well. Disruptive players are definitely a bane. Sometimes though they don't realize what they do and need a reminder to get back on track so everyone has fun.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Reynard,

Okay, you said it yourself, the players and the referee seem to be the issue, not Traveller. And also realize nowhere in the game is a rule that says you can't do things your way rather than the way its set up in the book. Go grab a vehicle from the equipment section and substitute for what on the ship, calculate the new price and adjust the space to hold it. Players happy, referee less harried.

If the ref makes getting an item a hassle it's either part of the adventure or the ref isn't sure how to handle a situation that might upset players. Not the game fault and can be a learning experience in gaming manners. And sometimes an encounter isn't perfect if the spare ship parts dealer can outdo a jedi.

Speaking of learning experiences, players not following script is probably as old as gaming. Sometimes it's inexperience with gaming social behavior or gamers just want to be jerks. I know that one too well. Disruptive players are definitely a bane. Sometimes though they don't realize what they do and need a reminder to get back on track so everyone has fun.

There are three elements, from my view point, to the issue:

MgT is a variant of CT that limits the choices for auxiliary ground, air, water, or in the case of an air/raft space vehicle to two. In CT one can expand the list from CT Book 3, unfortunately none of the other MgT CRB 1st ed. Equipment/Vehicles pp. 103-104 can be added since they do not include the space in tons they take up. The referee has to figure out how much space a MgT ground car, grav floater, AFV, and G-Carrier takes up. Note I do not know how these types of vehicles are designed, which means the referee's tons is, in my opinion, a house rule, unless the vehicle design rules include tons and are used. A grav belt on the other hand is noted as being in the ship's locker since it takes up no space compared to the other vehicles.

The other two elements we agree on are the players and referee. Most of my gaming experience has been as a player and for the most part the party going off script was the result of interpreting the clues and coming up with an odd-ball answer. Yes, the players going off script is as old as gaming and in real world situations too.

I agree that the referee's actions could be following the script and/or unsure how to handle a situation when the players response is totally unexpected. For the most part I agree with you about gamers who are being jerks on purpose or not realizing they are being jerks. I have to admit that I can be classified as a jerk because I often pursue a topic view point way to far. I think I may be heading down that path right now, which means that I've beat the topic to death and should concede the floor.

Thank you for the discussion and opportunity to express, okay over express ;-), my view point.

 

[phavoc]

Hello Reynard,

Okay, you said it yourself, the players and the referee seem to be the issue, not Traveller. And also realize nowhere in the game is a rule that says you can't do things your way rather than the way its set up in the book. Go grab a vehicle from the equipment section and substitute for what on the ship, calculate the new price and adjust the space to hold it. Players happy, referee less harried.

If the ref makes getting an item a hassle it's either part of the adventure or the ref isn't sure how to handle a situation that might upset players. Not the game fault and can be a learning experience in gaming manners. And sometimes an encounter isn't perfect if the spare ship parts dealer can outdo a jedi.

Speaking of learning experiences, players not following script is probably as old as gaming. Sometimes it's inexperience with gaming social behavior or gamers just want to be jerks. I know that one too well. Disruptive players are definitely a bane. Sometimes though they don't realize what they do and need a reminder to get back on track so everyone has fun.

There are three elements, from my view point, to the issue:

MgT is a variant of CT that limits the choices for auxiliary ground, air, water, or in the case of an air/raft space vehicle to two. In CT one can expand the list from CT Book 3, unfortunately none of the other MgT CRB 1st ed. Equipment/Vehicles pp. 103-104 can be added since they do not include the space in tons they take up. The referee has to figure out how much space a MgT ground car, grav floater, AFV, and G-Carrier takes up. Note I do not know how these types of vehicles are designed, which means the referee's tons is, in my opinion, a house rule, unless the vehicle design rules include tons and are used. A grav belt on the other hand is noted as being in the ship's locker since it takes up no space compared to the other vehicles.

The other two elements we agree on are the players and referee. Most of my gaming experience has been as a player and for the most part the party going off script was the result of interpreting the clues and coming up with an odd-ball answer. Yes, the players going off script is as old as gaming and in real world situations too.

I agree that the referee's actions could be following the script and/or unsure how to handle a situation when the players response is totally unexpected. For the most part I agree with you about gamers who are being jerks on purpose or not realizing they are being jerks. I have to admit that I can be classified as a jerk because I often pursue a topic view point way to far. I think I may be heading down that path right now, which means that I've beat the topic to death and should concede the floor.

Thank you for the discussion and opportunity to express, okay over express ;-), my view point.

I agree with you snrdg. It would be nice if published material was done so with an eye towards being professional. I think the issue IS with Traveller, or at least the publisher of the material, in not being more complete with the descriptions of items. While I certainly don't expect them to itemize everything, or every potential variation, I DO expect them to provide the baseline upon which players and referee's will model their own variations. So I expect them to provide the template, and I will do the rest. That's a fair assumption, and, I think, a very reasonable thing to ask.

And players following the well-plotted adventure.... I think there was a time in 86....

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning PST phavoc,

And players following the well-plotted adventure.... I think there was a time in 86....

In my case that may have been in 1977 during a D&D adventure as for Traveller I don't think I ever was in one that did not go off on a tangent. Luckily the referee was able to get us back, usually with at least one character being hospitalized or becoming an NPC.

 

[AndrewW]

MgT is a variant of CT that limits the choices for auxiliary ground, air, water, or in the case of an air/raft space vehicle to two. In CT one can expand the list from CT Book 3, unfortunately none of the other MgT CRB 1st ed. Equipment/Vehicles pp. 103-104 can be added since they do not include the space in tons they take up. The referee has to figure out how much space a MgT ground car, grav floater, AFV, and G-Carrier takes up. Note I do not know how these types of vehicles are designed, which means the referee's tons is, in my opinion, a house rule, unless the vehicle design rules include tons and are used.

While missing in the Core Rulebook, the vehicles in Supplement 5-6: The Vehicle Handbook do include shipping size.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hi AndrewW,

MgT is a variant of CT that limits the choices for auxiliary ground, air, water, or in the case of an air/raft space vehicle to two. In CT one can expand the list from CT Book 3, unfortunately none of the other MgT CRB 1st ed. Equipment/Vehicles pp. 103-104 can be added since they do not include the space in tons they take up. The referee has to figure out how much space a MgT ground car, grav floater, AFV, and G-Carrier takes up. Note I do not know how these types of vehicles are designed, which means the referee's tons is, in my opinion, a house rule, unless the vehicle design rules include tons and are used.

While missing in the Core Rulebook, the vehicles in Supplement 5-6: The Vehicle Handbook do include shipping size.

Thank you for the information and adding to my wish list.

Unfortunately, when Supplement 5-6 was available I was not in a position to purchase a copy. The hiccup of not including space requirements for vehicles and other items is not restricted to MgT in a design system. Unfortunately, I am a type that prefer to have items that can be carried by something else have the same units. For example, a grav belt in most systems mentions an mass in kg when turned off, but no clue as to how many tons of space, which may come in handy if I was carrying a say one thousand units. Yes, I know that in this case I'm being too picky and I usually ignore the issue. On the other hand not providing the tons of space for ground cars, grav floaters, AFVs, or G-Carriers while providing the information for air/rafts and ATVs. Okay, technically an AFV is an upgrade ATV so I could use the same tons requirement.

I had planned to spend money on MgT books, unfortunately I eye glass prescription has change and I need new ones and that throws a crimp into my budget.