Confusion over cover

[AlphaStrike]

OK - played a couple of games now. Rules are a nicely smoothed out version of those used in 'old' SST. I like.

However, a few things were raised in a game last night. I'll do my best to summarise these .

Cover - do you use the size of an obstacle (1,2,3 etc) of a unit to see whether it can peer over a piece of terrain or do you just get a model's eye view? For example, 2 inch high wall can obscure the nicely low-profiled Type 99 tank. Is that right?

Also, if only one model in a unit has LOS to a model, can the whole unit still fire at it? If not, don't things get tricky - espcially if you have a unit of infantry shooting at another unit of infantry, some with LOS to one model, but not to another, and so on. I get the impression, the game's ethos is to keep it smooth and simple.

 

[Sgt. Brassones]

When it comes to cover just get down to model-eye level and determine if a line of sight can be traced. If so it can be shot at. If the target is in or touching the cover then its target and kill numbers are +2.

LOS is traced to the middle of a firezone not a model. All models that can trace LOS to the center point of the firezone can shoot. You can only attack models that are within the firezone and that are also within LOS.

 

[GhostWolf69]

Ok. HI and hello everyone, my first post for Evolution.

Stupid question but I have to, sorry.

Reading adn re-reading the Los and Cover rules still doesn't help me see this so I have to ask.

The way the rules are written seem to indicate that I have to keep track of what die EACH model rolls. (ie not a blind group roll, all at once) because if a particular models die is located to an enemy it cannot see... it's a miss?

I'm so not getting this right I can feel it.

I've done some scetches:

Parts of the fiering unit cannot see the same targets as other models in the same unit.
They all have a clear line to the FireZone, but for One specific model fiering at a target model, the line may be Obstructed of the model may even be in Cover... so Do I have to keep track of that?

All examples I could find (in the rules and previe) and seem to indicatte one group roll being applied. Also the allocation of "Highest score" to "Closest enemy" also seem to indicate a group roll, (i.e. same Target Numbers for all models fiering so you don't have to keep track of this).

So which is it?

I guess what I'm confused about is this:

"In all cases, Line of Sight is traced as a straight line from the centre of each of the fi ring models to the centre of what is called the Fire Zone"

ALL CASES. So this is the only line I need to care about and roll all dice in my group against that value?

"you can only attack models completely or partially within this Fire Zone that are also within Line of Sight. All models in the unit must use the same Fire Zone."

In my opinion, if I have LOS to the FireZone in the first place then I have LOS to the enemy within the Zone? No? Remember ALL CASES? But then all of a sudden:

"Obscured: Terrain interrupts Line of Sight but both models can still partially see one another (that is, terrain hides part of the target model). The target gains a +1 bonus to its Target score."

and

"a fi ring model may ‘see through’ any Cover within a number of inches equal to its Size score. It may also ‘see through’ any Cover within a number of inches to the target model that is equal to the target model’s Size score."

Now we are talking about Models "Seeing eachother" and target models etc. .... what? You mean see the center of the FireZone... right?

Maybe I'm making this more complicated than it is but I apreciate any help I could get here cause the rules seem to say two diffeent things to me and I have no idea how to handle them.

/wolf

 

[BuShips]

Take this from someone that hasn't played yet, but if I'm wrong someone will come along and correct me quickly :wink:. Since in both examples all of your infantry models have LOS to the center of your Fire Zone, they all can shoot. You would roll the dice in a lump, and then apply the damage dice to the enemy models caught in the Fire Zone, assigning the damage dice to the closest target models first. In your top example if you are shooting squad rifles of 1 die each then the closest enemy pair each have two dice on them. In the bottom example there is an even coverage of dice for all to share. As long as the targets are within the Fire Zone and at least one shooting model can see them, they can be attacked. The idea of course is to place your Fire Zone in such a way that it catches as many enemy models as possible and that also is centered in such a way as to be seen in LOS by the maximum number of your firing models.

 

[Xorrandor]

Well, I have played a few games, although I'm hardly an expert. Here's how I've been playing it:

If you get in these situations where only part of your squad can see part of their squad, check to see what the best case (for the attacker) is. For example, if one member of the firing squad can't see a target model at all, three can see it but are obscured, and one can see it in the clear; then you fire at it as if it were in the clear. After all, if a damage die gets allocated to that target, it's probably coming from the guy with the best line of sight. If any member of the firing squad can't see any targets in the fire zone, that model doesn't get to fire. (Even if his LoS is obscured to every target, he's still adding to the volume of fire and possibly causing the enemy to flinch out of their minimal cover. Yes, this is the weakest link in the argument.)

I do this just for streamlining. In theory it can lead to one "Rambo" point man taking out a bunch of the enemy, but that hasn't happened in actual practice yet. If the enemy is in cover, LoS won't matter, so all you can try to bypass is obscurement. And then, the obscurement is usually in the form of another member of the same squad, that one of your squadmates can see better than your point man anyway.

I don't know what the official answer is, though. I'm hoping fine points like this will be addressed in the advanced rulebook.

 

[BuShips]

I'd play it that way too Xorrandor, as there has to be a tie-breaker somewhere, and the dice are in the hands of the shooter so I'd say he gets any "best-case" situations. In my comment above, I assigned the extra damage dice to the front pair of targets, but I could have placed them on the back as well (again, shooter's privilege). After all, the highest die results go to the nearest targets, and the chances are that they're already dead. :wink:

 

[GhostWolf69]

Well, I have played a few games, although I'm hardly an expert. Here's how I've been playing it:

If you get in these situations where only part of your squad can see part of their squad, check to see what the best case (for the attacker) is. For example, if one member of the firing squad can't see a target model at all, three can see it but are obscured, and one can see it in the clear; then you fire at it as if it were in the clear. After all, if a damage die gets allocated to that target, it's probably coming from the guy with the best line of sight. If any member of the firing squad can't see any targets in the fire zone, that model doesn't get to fire. (Even if his LoS is obscured to every target, he's still adding to the volume of fire and possibly causing the enemy to flinch out of their minimal cover. Yes, this is the weakest link in the argument.)

I don't know what the official answer is, though. I'm hoping fine points like this will be addressed in the advanced rulebook.

Love it! Thanks, best suggestion so far.

/wolf

 

[The Old Soldier]

In your 1st example 3 enemy models can be seen by at least one of your models. So as long if firing normal rifles at this group all dice in the firezone will be applied to those three models. Starting with the closest to your troops and working from there.

In your 2nd example all enemy models can be seen by at least one firing model. So all can be targeted, per normal FZ rules.

The rules are very simple.

A. The thing to remember is as long as at least one enemy model can be seen, you can shoot at a point in LOS and create a FZ.

B. All enemy models fired on, can be targeted by the FZ as long as at least 1 firing model has LOS to it.

C. Any enemy models in a FZ that can not be seen by at least one firing model, can NOT be targeted.

Any other targeting other than the above will say so on the unit cards.

 

[shadowbloodmoon]

Just wanted to say that's a great summary Old Soldier. Makes things a heck of a lot clearer to me too.

 

[docrailgun]

This isn't what the rules say, though.
The basic rules say:
"Every model with a weapon can use it to attack any enemy that it can draw Line of Sight to and is within range. Range is always measured to the center of the Fire Zone"
p. 16 of the advanced rulebook says:
"Every model with a weapon can use it to attack any enemy that it can draw Line of Sight to and is within range. Range is always measured to the center of the Fire Zone."
p. 18 says:
"Note that if some models shooting into a Fire Zone can draw a clear (LOS)... while other models on the same attacking unit cannot, you should roll your Damage Dice seperately for them."
So, nowhere in these paragraphs does it say that an entire unit can shoot at a FZ if only one model in the unit can see the center of the FZ. Quite the opposite, in fact. All three quotes explicitly state that models in an attacking unit can only damage enemy models that they have LOS to.
Sure, it sucks, and it's a waste of shots sometimes... but in the case where only one attacking model has LOS to enemy models, only that attacker can hit the enemy. Basically, there probably should have been a mention in the rules of "Roll damage dice for your entire unit", as there are very few times when one will be able to do so.
The solution to not having LOS? Move up one's units to touch low terrain (though it makes one's units vulnerable to counter-attack). But if one's models are behind a terrain feature and aren't touching it., they're not going to get hit... but they're not going to hit anything either.

In your 1st example 3 enemy models can be seen by at least one of your models. So as long if firing normal rifles at this group all dice in the firezone will be applied to those three models. Starting with the closest to your troops and working from there.

In your 2nd example all enemy models can be seen by at least one firing model. So all can be targeted, per normal FZ rules.

The rules are very simple.

A. The thing to remember is as long as at least one enemy model can be seen, you can shoot at a point in LOS and create a FZ.

B. All enemy models fired on, can be targeted by the FZ as long as at least 1 firing model has LOS to it.

C. Any enemy models in a FZ that can not be seen by at least one firing model, can NOT be targeted.

Any other targeting other than the above will say so on the unit cards.

 

[BuShips]

There should be a way to phrase it that allows fast play without getting bogged down into the muck. I'd think that as long as at least one of your shooting models can see a target model that is also within the Fire Zone and that the Fire Zone center is also within range that the shooting model can contribute its attack to the fist full of dice that is then thrown. I'd also think that no blind firing by any model would be permitted, and I do not think TOS was saying anything like that anyway. The rules deny it by requiring Line of Sight to be able to fire. It's apparent that there is a new twist to the shooting rules that is included within the Advanced Rulebook, but I'd try to keep its usage at a minimum and for especially problematic situations.

 

[The Old Soldier]

I doubt there is nothing new about a FZ in the adv. rule book. I think MP attempted to make it clear, and somehow to just isn't for some people. All I can say what I have. My statement is the same one I used back in the RuleMaster forum a few months ago to get a handle on the rule sheet.

I thought I made it clear, there is no blindfire (certain weapons though may break some rules though). But, those are defined on the unit cards.

I suggest playing some games, it will all fall into place after a few with friends.

If any model is in cover it will get a cover bonus. If a model being fired on is obscured by to some firing models but not all, I wouldn't give it a obscure bonus. On the other hand if it is obscured to all it would gain the bonus.

 

[BuShips]

OK, so you round towards the target rather than the shooter? That's fine as well. As long as all the players understand. Of course, if you have a time constraint on play you can round it to the shooter because the troops would die faster. :twisted:

 

[GhostWolf69]

Played a game last night and it was a fair game I guess.

The House Rules suggested by BuShip worked excelent and will probably continue to be the way I play it. They simply rocked and made life a lot easier.

Another question arose though.

Terrain and cover... If you are "inside terrain" you can always claim cover bonus... correct? Even if a fiering model has a clear line of site to the target model?

Effectively this would make defining "terrain" before battle pretty damn important, and it would also remove and nullify alot of my initial questions on this matter, cause; Hey? If they're in terrain they're in cover and we don't ahve to bother with model-to-model sighting at all.

On top of this we also had a little wrinkle concerning LOS "through" cover/terrain.

My thinking here is that the rules are there to allow units to fire from within the brink of a forest or ruin or something, they are size one and can fire out of the "terrain" as long as they are no further than 1" away from it's edge. They can still claim the cover from being "inside terrain" when an enemy fires at them.

But as soon as they move away from the edhe of the "terrain" more than Size inches they are effectively out of LOS regardless of what the LOS really looks like, right? So if we have defined a Ruined House as One "terrain" element, any foot soldier two inches from the terrain element edge is effectively out of LOS from any enemy on the outside?

Am I reading this correct?

If this is correct it's fine by me and it would serve to speed up play and again clearup and more or less nullify my initial questions.

/wolf

 

[cordas]

Yeah thats correct, 2+" of terrain will block LOS between size 1 models.

 

[Gobbo]

Also, the Article in S&P says we can expect more/advanced terrain info.

 

[retaf33c]

Old Soldier has it right.

Every model must be able to track LOS to the center of the fire zone to shoot.

Then only models that you can trace LOS can be hit. This LOS is not the same as the LOS to the center of the fire zone unless that model is the center of the fire zone.

The bottom line is you can't kill models that nobody in the firing unit can see unless the card specifically says you can such as AOE from a tank's main gun.