Confused about the Armageddon PL system?

[Triggy]

The fact that MP had to come out with a list of ships to be used in a tournament tells me this is a big problem.

It tells me there are a whole lot of people around who get more fun out of screwing the game and the other players up than actually PLAYING.

And to them I say, bugger off. And so the game is no longer broken. Simple.

Wulf

Maybe that's true but ufortunately that only solves the problem for you. Most other people would prefer for the lists to actually be balanced then people can do whatever they want and everyone has fun. After all, isn't enjoyment what we're all trying to get out of the game (even if by different means for different people)?

 

[lastbesthope]

There is a point to be made though.

2 point of war buy me 2 battle and 3 raid ships, however if I split each point as described I can get 2 battle and 4 raid ships. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Intentional or not the system rewards splitting points. It doesn't give you any less larger ships, in my 2 points of war I still have 2 battle level ships but now I have 4 raid instead of three, all for a paper exercise of splitting a point.

True, but instead of 2 War if you had 1 Armageddon point then you could only get 2 Battle and 2 Raid ships for an exclusive Battle/Raid buy. The new system is all a bout which PL you get the points at. 1 Armageddon is not quite the same as 2 War. Mind you it's always been a little like that.

LBH

 

[Furious Jedi]

In what way? I find it simple. I do not spend any of my own time in the company of people I do not like, or do not enjoy the company of. Life's too short to suffer when you're supposed to be having fun. I don't blame other people, when the problem is so easily solved - either they leave or I do.

Wulf
I do not waste my time with those types either but it is possible to have an issue with friends over what constitutes a "crap" fleet. The game has a flaw in this area that I thought was going to be addressed in Amageddon. That was an assumption on my part and I was wrong, not a big deal, I'll live with it, but for you to say that by not playing those people you have somehow solved the flaw in the game is ridiculous. In your response to me either you are being a smartalec jacka*@#! or you're an idiot.

So much anger you should perhaps change your screen name to Furious Sith?

You can see above for the reason my anger came out. I apologize that this has happened and hope to prevent any reoccurance in the future. Furious Jedi is meant to be an oxymoron, I couldn't be Sith any more than I could be Shadows, they are evil

Furious Jedi wrote:
What makes you think it's intentional?


The fact that Mongoose don't, by and large, just spew random stuff for thier books.

I never suggested that they did. I was pointing out a flaw in the system, this is not a critisizim, all games have flaws of one type or another. It was stated that it isn't broken if it is intentional, and my response was basically, why would a game designer intentionally build a flaw into his game?

Furious Jedi wrote:
When I refer to broken I'm talking about the ability to take 12 Sagg's and nothing else.


The ability to take 12 Sagg's is seperate from the point breakdown system.

I agree with you so I'm not sure what point you're making.

Furious Jedi wrote:

The fact that MP had to come out with a list of ships to be used in a tournament tells me this is a big problem.


The tournament list was a balance issue, and has been replaced by the new Armageddon listings. There is now no such thing as a seperate tournament list anymore. (Well the list still exists but is not intended for use in play)

"Balance issue" is another way of saying " flaw" or "broken". There are two balance issues ( that I am aware of ) in the pre Armageddon PL system. The 1st one is that some ships are to powerful for their points and some ships are not powerful enough. This leads to the 2nd balance issue that once people figured out which ships those are the PL system allows a player to take as many of those powerful ships as he wants with no restrictions. That lead to MP's Tournament approve fleet list. An attempt to give all Races a balanced fleet list and put everyone on a level playing field in a tournament setting. Even with this list Tournament organizers sometimes need to come up with additional house rule and restrictions to keep things as fair as possible. There are also two easy ways to fix the balance issues. Change the ships stats to match points or change PL to match stats and 2nd, put a restriction of some type into the PL system so that a player can't field 15 Sagg's or what ever the cheater ship of the day is. (One suggestion I heard was that 50% of your fleet has to be made of the PL of the game you are playing. So if you are playing war then 50% has to be war level ships. Don't know if this is doable it just one of the ideas I heard being kicked around. )

Anyway, the bottom line is that I was unaware that the Armageddon lists replace the Tournament list. MP did infact make an attempt to solve the balance issue just not in the way I was expecting. By adjusting ships stats and PL they possibly don't need to place restrictions within the PL system. If all ships within a given PL are approx. the same strength then it won't matter if someone take a bunch of the same ship.


Again, sorry for the anger that came out, but I'm not going to put up with that kind of a response. If your going to dish it out you better be ready to take it.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

2 point of war buy me 2 battle and 3 raid ships, however if I split each point as described I can get 2 battle and 4 raid ships. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Intentional or not the system rewards splitting points. It doesn't give you any less larger ships, in my 2 points of war I still have 2 battle level ships but now I have 4 raid instead of three, all for a paper exercise of splitting a point.

I still don't have the actual printed book, but these are the last two paragraphs of the relevant section of the last draft I do have:

"Note that if you split a Fleet Allocation Point into two, you may only split one of those down further.
You cannot therefore split a War level Fleet Allocation Point to get two Battle Points, and then split both of these into four Raid level Points, in order to get more Points than the three listed on the Fleet Allocation table!"

Has this now been changed or removed?

Wulf

 

[Wulf Corbett]

I do not waste my time with those types either but it is possible to have an issue with friends over what constitutes a "crap" fleet.

If they are friends, they will come to an agreement. If they will not, your problems are far deeper than a mere game.

The game has a flaw in this area that I thought was going to be addressed in Amageddon. That was an assumption on my part and I was wrong, not a big deal, I'll live with it, but for you to say that by not playing those people you have somehow solved the flaw in the game is ridiculous.

There is no flaw in the game here, it is in your gaming group.

In your response to me either you are being a smartalec jacka*@#! or you're an idiot.

I'm glad you came to this discussion with an open mind.

Wulf

 

[Furious Jedi]

There is no flaw in the game here, it is in your gaming group.

OK, I figured out which one it is. You're the idiot.

 

[lastbesthope]

OK, I'm putting my Moderator hat on now.

Wulf and Furious, stop this public slanging match or I will take steps.

LBH

 

[Right Hand of God]

Wulf, from LBH's comments it would appear to have been changed, I can't say a I don't have the book yet. I suppose LBH's comments about it being about the PL you chose the ship at makes kind of sense if you chose to look at it that way bt why should spending the points one way bennefit you so much more than spending the points another way

 

[Furious Jedi]

OK I'm done. I promise I wasn't angry when I said it. That's an improvement

 

[Ripple]

Maybe folks can answer this here. There was a apparently a goal of encouraging smaller ships in fleets. Was this reported as a problem to Mongoose before Arm was in design? Since the time I joined the forum and the game it has always been apparent that lots of ships below the pl of the scenario was almost always a good bet.

Just wondering if anyone knew why this was a goal.

Ripple

 

[tneva82]

so in your 1st example you would break down 2 war points, 1 to 2 batle and 1 to 3 raid giving you total 3 war, 2 battle, 3 raid.

2nd example break down 2 war points to 4 battle, then further break downa battle point to 2 raid giving you 3 war, 3 battle, 2 raid.

Lol. So basicly you are basicly better off with 2nd example. Can't see why anybody would trade 1 battle ship to 1 raid ship.

Somebody probably is already working on optimal point splits for tournament sizes...

 

[katadder]

armageddon splits are better tho. split 2 war points to 4 battle points. now you can split 2 of those battle points down again giving you 2 battle and 4 raid.