Confused about the Armageddon PL system?

[Furious Jedi]

We are having a disagreement in my group about how the sysytem works in my gaming group.

Here is the way it was explained to me.

War 5, break down 2 war pts., 1 war for 2 battle, and 1 war for 4 raid.
This would give a fleet of 3 war, 2 battle, and 4 raid.

That is not how I understand it from the book. I don't have Armageddon yet only looked at a freinds briefly and the explaination and the example are as usual for a Mongoose product inadequate. Sorry if my frustration is showing, I don't like needing to get into forums in order to find out how to play a game. I have all but quit playing Warmachine for that reason.

I think it works like this: WAR 5, break down 2 war pts. , 4 battle, break down 1 battle into 2 raid.
This would give a fleet of 3 war, 4 battle, 2 raid.

I thought the PL system was suppose to be less complicated than a points system. Help me out guys, how does it work and if my friend is correct then how is the new system diffrent than the old one?

 

[katadder]

you an break down a war point for 2 battle or 3 raid

so in your 1st example you would break down 2 war points, 1 to 2 batle and 1 to 3 raid giving you total 3 war, 2 battle, 3 raid.

2nd example break down 2 war points to 4 battle, then further break downa battle point to 2 raid giving you 3 war, 3 battle, 2 raid.

a point breaks down to 2 points of the level directly below, 3 points for 2 levels below, then 6, then 12, then 24.

 

[Triggy]

We are having a disagreement in my group about how the sysytem works in my gaming group.

Here is the way it was explained to me.

War 5, break down 2 war pts., 1 war for 2 battle, and 1 war for 4 raid.
This would give a fleet of 3 war, 2 battle, and 4 raid.

That is not how I understand it from the book. I don't have Armageddon yet only looked at a freinds briefly and the explaination and the example are as usual for a Mongoose product inadequate. Sorry if my frustration is showing, I don't like needing to get into forums in order to find out how to play a game. I have all but quit playing Warmachine for that reason.

I think it works like this: WAR 5, break down 2 war pts. , 4 battle, break down 1 battle into 2 raid.
This would give a fleet of 3 war, 4 battle, 2 raid.

I thought the PL system was suppose to be less complicated than a points system. Help me out guys, how does it work and if my friend is correct then how is the new system diffrent than the old one?

You can get 3 War, 2 Battle and 4 Raid but it's not obvious how, as you say.

What happens is you can break down a FAP by any of the available options. Of a point that has already been broken down, you can only split one of the resulting split points again. If you do split a point again then you can only split one of these points again...

To clarify with your example:

Option One:
Split 1 War point into 2 Battle points
Split 1 War point into 3 Raid points
This leaves you with 3 War points, 2 Battle points and 3 Raid points

Option Two:
Split 1 War point into 2 Battle points; further split 1 Battle point into 2 Raid points
Split 1 War point into 2 Battle points; further split 1 Battle point into 2 Raid points
This leaves you with 3 War points, 2 Battle points and 4 Raid points

Basically, you get a slight "points break" if you split points multiple times as you are taking a wide variety of different ship types. This mechanism is a way of encouraging variety in fleets at the end of the day.

 

[lastbesthope]

Yup, Triggy's Option 2 is how to do it.

Greg Smith did something similar at the last tourney with 5 Raid points

he turned 2 Raid points into 2 Skirmish and 4 Patrol. Legal

LBH

 

[Ripple]

Glad some one else finds the system as arcane as I do. Points would be much simpler. I find that when I explain it to folks I just do a quick flow chart looking thing for each point the battle is set for.

Ripple (wish I knew how to put up little flow charts...)

 

[Furious Jedi]

Thanks guys, that helps a little, but I still don't understand how the new system is different from the old. Maybe it would help if I new what I could NOT do under this new system. For instance, WAR 5, could I break all 5 pts. down into say 10 battle, and then take 4 of the battle and make 8 raid.
Could I take all 5 war pts and make 15 raid? If I can then I guess they didn't fix anything after all.

 

[Commador Q]

in the old ytem you could only break a FAP into one class of smaller points, or elect a breakdown from a fairly short list of alternatives.

now the FAP breakdown in more mathamatically logical (ie if a Raid point buys you 2 Skermish then one of the Raid points you got in trade for a War point will as well.)

At least that's what i think the system means

 

[lastbesthope]

Maybe it would help if I new what I could NOT do under this new system. For instance, WAR 5, could I break all 5 pts. down into say 10 battle, and then take 4 of the battle and make 8 raid.

You could do this with each of the 5 War points

1 War = 2 Battle=1 Battle and 2 Raid
1 War = 2 Battle=1 Battle and 2 Raid
1 War = 2 Battle=1 Battle and 2 Raid
1 War = 2 Battle=1 Battle and 2 Raid
1 War = 2 Battle (or any other combo you like

Could I take all 5 war pts and make 15 raid? If I can then I guess they didn't fix anything after all.

Yes you can. but I don't think they fixed anything either it wasn't broken, they just tweaked it.

If iot's any help Burger has created a list of all viable points breakdowns, verified by myself andf conforming to MSprange's explanation of the rules.

It is the last post on the first page of this thread.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21765&postdays=0

LBH

 

[Furious Jedi]

Thanks for the link, THAT is exactly what I needed.

I disagree that it isn't broken. Any system that allows me to power game as badly as this one is broken, but hey, if you can't beat 'em join 'em.

 

[Guchi]

A system isn't broken if its intentional.

The system rewards spliting of individual points, something that is definately worth while really.

 

[Furious Jedi]

What makes you think it's intentional?

 

[Wulf Corbett]

What makes you think it's intentional?

As a playtester, I can assure you it's intentional. The entire point was to encourage players to take more small ships. That was repeated many times as we discussed it.

WHY that was wanted I'm not sure...

Wulf

 

[Furious Jedi]

When I refer to broken I'm talking about the ability to take 12 Sagg's and nothing else. The ability to take a fleet of nothing but the best ships regardless of priority level. That is power gaming and the system does nothing to restrict it. I assumed that the new system would. The game very easily becomes unbalanced, if that is intentional ....well....I'm not really sure what to say at this point.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

When I refer to broken I'm talking about the ability to take 12 Sagg's and nothing else. The ability to take a fleet of nothing but the best ships regardless of priority level. That is power gaming and the system does nothing to restrict it. I assumed that the new system would. The game very easily becomes unbalanced, if that is intentional ....well....I'm not really sure what to say at this point.

It's quite easy, play with people who won't take crap fleets. Simple, really. No system can stop people being arseholes.

Wulf

 

[Furious Jedi]

Who decides what a crap fleet is? How many Sagg's is to many? How many isn't enough? Crap to you may not be crap to me.

Yes there are game systems that do a very good job of preventing power gaming and keep everything in balance for the most part.

The fact that MP had to come out with a list of ships to be used in a tournament tells me this is a big problem.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

The fact that MP had to come out with a list of ships to be used in a tournament tells me this is a big problem.

It tells me there are a whole lot of people around who get more fun out of screwing the game and the other players up than actually PLAYING.

And to them I say, bugger off. And so the game is no longer broken. Simple.

Wulf

 

[Furious Jedi]

[/quote]And to them I say, bugger off. And so the game is no longer broken. Simple.

Hard to argue with logic like that :shock: :?

Your planet is probably a nice place to visit but I don't think I could live there.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Your planet is probably a nice place to visit but I don't think I could live there.

In what way? I find it simple. I do not spend any of my own time in the company of people I do not like, or do not enjoy the company of. Life's too short to suffer when you're supposed to be having fun. I don't blame other people, when the problem is so easily solved - either they leave or I do.

Wulf

 

[lastbesthope]

What makes you think it's intentional?

The fact that Mongoose don't, by and large, just spew random stuff for thier books.

When I refer to broken I'm talking about the ability to take 12 Sagg's and nothing else.

The ability to take 12 Sagg's is seperate from the point breakdown system.

The fact that MP had to come out with a list of ships to be used in a tournament tells me this is a big problem.

The tournament list was a balance issue, and has been replaced by the new Armageddon listings. There is now no such thing as a seperate tournament list anymore. (Well the list still exists but is not intended for use in play)

So much anger you should perhaps change your screen name to Furious Sith? :lol:

LBH

 

[Right Hand of God]

There is a point to be made though.

2 point of war buy me 2 battle and 3 raid ships, however if I split each point as described I can get 2 battle and 4 raid ships. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Intentional or not the system rewards splitting points. It doesn't give you any less larger ships, in my 2 points of war I still have 2 battle level ships but now I have 4 raid instead of three, all for a paper exercise of splitting a point.