Conan Rules and Clarifications

[Shonuff]

This is long, but I think it’s important to all of us--

These are sections I have pulled out of the book for further study, discussion, and clarification.

Since my play by post game will soon involve some combat, I'm hoping to have as much of this clear as possible.

My advice is to read these passages from the book over and just think about the game. I’ve added a few comments in BOLD type.

Let's have a look (sorry I did not put the page numbers):
------------------------------------------------------------------

Defense Value = 10 + size + Parry or Dodge Bonus
Seems clear.

Changing between the two modes of defense is a free action and can be done each time the character is attacked if desired, but must be done before the opponent makes his attack roll.
Can you switch to a parry when the feint affects your dodge? Keep reading.

Sometimes you cannot use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you cannot react to a blow, you cannot use your Dexterity bonus to DV. (If you do not have a Dexterity bonus, nothing happens.)
Sounds much like DnD and even Spycraft (which uses a class defense value and Damage Reduction armor system like Conan.

Dodge Bonus: Any situation that denies you your Dexterity Bonus also denies you dodge bonuses.
I wonder if the authors knew just how much of a big impact this has on the game. I’ll reference this single passage often (and call it “the one”) since it seems to unbalance and contradict the other mechanics mentioned. Other passages seem not to include this in their descriptions. In addition to the Dodge Bonuses on pg 160, is this mentioned again?

When characters are caught flat-footed, they lose all dodge and parry bonuses, so their Defense Value will always be the base of 10, assuming their size is medium.
Pretty neat and nasty. Harsh compared to DND or Spycraft but OK since there is DR for armor (unless finessed).

Sneak Attack: Any time the thief’s target would be denied dodge or parry bonus to Defense Value (whether the target has a dodge or not), or when the thief flanks the target, the thief’s attack deals extra damage.
Denied dodge or parry bonus means flat-footed or hanging from a cliff. Flanking – OK, understood. -- Now -- Denied DEX bonus to dodge (like when feinted), if following “the one” quote from above, means you’re denied your total dodge bonus. A good question is here and clarification is needed regarding complete loss of Dodge. -- Other than flat-footed or stunned, there’s no mention to losing parry bonus in the book (I think).

Feint: If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to DV (if any).
OK – You lose a few DEX bonus points to Dodge. -- Now - if still following “the one” quote, you lose both your DEX mod and Dodge bonus. This results in a significant loss of defense compared to DnD or Spycraft where you only lose your DEX mod. No mention here of Parry at all. So feint cannot affect Parry defense? -- Clarification on these points needed.

Grappling: You lose your Dexterity bonus to DV (if you have one) against opponents you are not grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)
So you lose DEX bonus to Dodge. -- But - if following “the one” quote from above, you lose all Dodge against opponents you are not grappling because you lose your DEX mod to DV. You can still use total Dodge value against person holding you. No mention to Parry vs either opponent.

Pinned: When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your DV against opponents other than the one pinning you.
If we follow “the one” reference to Dodge Bonuses, then being pinned (-4 to DV) is better than simply being grappled (total loss of Dodge) when attacked by those other than the person holding you? But doesn't being pinned mean you're grappled too? What penalties are in place and what you can and cannot do when pinned need to be clarified.

Helpless: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to DV against melee attacks, but no penalty to DV against ranged attacks. A helpless defender cannot use any Dexterity bonus to DV. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to Armor Class as if it were –5 (and a thief or pirate can sneak attack him).
Just read this one. Obviously Armor Class is out of place. But does it total –9 vs. melee attacks and –5 vs. ranged attacks due to a Dex of 0? A clear revision is really needed here describing the penalties and what defenses you can use.

Stunned: The character loses all dodge and parry bonuses to DV and can take no actions.
Ah ha! Finally a situation that mentions clearly a loss of both dodge and parry bonuses to DV. Here, sneak attacks are welcome I’m sure since you are denied dodge and parry bonuses.

Touch Attacks: Your opponent’s DV against a touch attack does not include any shield bonus or Parry Bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, dodge bonuses and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Full Dodging OK – no Parry at all. Got it. -- But if feinted first and following “the one” passage above -- you lose Dodge and you cannot parry a touch attack? So - you're totally defenseless and worse off than being grappled or pinned?

Shields: All shields have a shield bonus. This added to the Defense Value of any character who is parrying. Also, the shield bonus to Defense Value of any character who is dodging a ranged attack.
Adds to parry, adds to dodge when ranged attack. Got it. No mention if shield adds to flat-footed DV of 10.


Summary here:
- Ability descriptions: No mention of STR modifier adding to Parry. Dexterity says it adds to Defense Value (not only Dodge), provided the character can react to the attack.
WOW – maybe it was intended to follow the DnD and Spycraft model to have DEX only modify Defense and that is why we have so many typos and unclear rule questions?

However here:
Dodging: Dodge bonus + Dex mod. + other
Parry: Parry bonus + Str mod + other
Here it clearly says STR mod adds to Parry. Not DEX like in the Ability score section.
---------------------------------------------------

We've all been trying to make sense of these in bits and pieces. But it does look like a variety of thoughts and methods were considered and then not fully put together in a smooth set of mechanics.

These passages have led to questions about shields, Defense Values, Sneak Attacks, Feints, Flat-footed situations, and many others.

The most reoccurring ones I see are these:
Does loss of DEX mod also mean total loss of Dodge?
It seems the book indicates both “yes” and “no”. There seem to be multiple references to loss of DEX mod (like in DnD and Spycraft) and ”the one” single mention that this loss also results in total Dodge Defense loss. Some say these passages also infer a total loss of Parry Defense as well (though this is never stated).

When it says you lose you DEX mod, what happens to Parry since it uses a STR mod?
It seems the book first had DEX adding to Parry (mentions DV in ability score section) and then switched to STR. Other references to loss of DEX mod then leave out Parry completely.

So here are 7 questions that I hope to clarify for my game:
1. Do you let STR modify Parry or do you let DEX modify all Defense Values? [The book says both]

2. Do you allow a successful feint to do:
A) target loses Dex bonus to dodge [as it says in book]
B) target loses all Dodge Defense [referencing ”the one” statement made in book regarding Dodge Bonuses]
C) target loses both Dodge and Parry Defense [even though the book never says or infers this]

3. Do you allow sneak attacks when it states “does not allow target to use DEX bonus to DV (if any)”? [The book says “no” since there is only a DEX mod. loss to Dodge. But then indirectly says “yes” by saying in “the one” that a loss of DEX bonus causes a total loss of Dodge.]

4. When grappling, what Defenses do you allow (both against other opponents and foe grappling you)? How does Parry fit in with grappling? [Book only addresses loss of DEX mod to other opponents]

5. Being pinned does the following:
A) –4 to both Dodge and Parry vs other opponents [as in book, -4 DV]
B) –4 to Parry but no Dodge allowed since immobile
C) something else.

6. What kind of defenses do you allow a helpless person? [book unclear]

7. Do you allow a touch attack to follow a feint? [The book is unclear regarding feinting as above. If you choose B or C from question 2, then being feinted is potentially worse than being grappled or pinned since you would only have a DV of 10 against a following touch attack.]
----------------------------

To me, these passages and questions are most interesting. I'm sure I have not found them all or asked them all, so if someone has more to add please do so.

Maybe by asking these we can assist Mongoose with the improved printing of the book.

 

[Yokiboy]

I agree that it's confusing Shonuff, let's dissect the RAW.

At the start of a battle, before you had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You cannot use your Dexterity bonus to DV (if any) while flat-footed. Some classes have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to DV due to being flat-footed.

A flat-footed character cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Then there's a bullet on page 160 under the heading Defence Value (continued from page 159), with a subhead of Other Modifiers, that states:

Dodge Bonuses: Some other DV bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. These bonuses are called dodge bonuses. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armour, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to DV.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other. Dodge Bonuses only apply if the character is Dodging, they do not add ot the character's DV if he is Parrying.

Directly following this bullet there's a short note, still page 160, that states:

A character will lose his Dodge Bonuses or Parry Bonuses to his Defence Value as normal when caught flat-footed or when he is clinging for life on the edge of a mile-high cliff-top.

When characters are caught flat-footed, they lose all dodge and parry bonuses, so their Defence Value will always be the base of 10, assuming their size is Medium.

• Quote #1: Makes it sound as if you only lose your Dex mod while flat-footed, and therefore Parry wouldn't be affected at all.

• Quote #2: States that any time you lose your Dex mod, you also lose all Dodge Bonuses, which in my mind is not the same as your Base Dodge Bonus (BDP), instead retaining a stupid bonus name from the SRD, which is too similar to BDP.

• Quote #3: Infers that you lose your Dodge Bonuses and Parry Bonuses to DV when flat-footed, but again I am not sure they mean BDB or BPB (Base Parry Bonus). :?

• Quote #4: This is what I believe you refer to as "the one" and it is IMO contradicting most everything in the other quotes from the rulebook.

Summing this up, it makes the Uncanny Dodge ability highly desirable (and it would explain why Conan was able to butcher so many soldiers and civilized folks so easily). Uncanny Dodge is not available as a feat in Conan the RPG, but only as a class ability for the Barbarian, Pirate and Thief. However, there is a feat called Reflexive Parry, which allows you to retain your parry bonus to your Defence Value (if any) if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.

Then there's the following:

In Conan the RPG as in the stories, striking first can mean the difference between life and death. To reflect this, higher level characters are significantly quicker-witted than those of lower level[snip]

This implies that the importance lies in striking first, not necessarily having a flat-footed opponent, although by the rules that is pretty much the same thing.

I definitely see why you'd like to hear from Mongoose on this subject, but I think that by applying all my ranks in Decipher Script, I take it to mean that you have DV 10 when flat-footed, and you better hurry up and get Uncanny Dodge or Reflexive Parry. You might want to add Uncanny Dodge back in as a feat...

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Anonymous]

Let's start this off with Words Mean Things.

In order:

1) STR modifies Parry, DEX modifies Dodge.

2) B, would be the correct answer.

3) Yes, that is pretty much the whole point of SA.

4) DV gets a +4 for Cover, lose your Dex bonus to Dodging (thus open to SA), can still parry. If pinned the -4 stacks on top of these, since you can only be pinned while grappling, the grappling effects do not go away.

5) C) -4 to Parry and -4 to BASE DV for Dodge (Since you lose all Dodge Bonuses)

6) DR, DV is 6 vs. Melee attacksif Parry, if Dodge it goes down to 1), and DV is 5 vs. Ranged attacks.

7) Yes you can touch attack after a feint, and no they are not worse off then grappled or pinned due to above. Remember you can NOT parry a touch attack only Dodge, and if denied DEX you get NO modifiers to your Dodge DV base of 10.

Other tidbits:

Shields can only help you if you are actively using them, hence helpless means no shield bonus, as does stunned. Denied Dex mean shileds can be used to parry but not cover for ranged Dodge.

SA are available anytime the target is denied Dodge OR Parry bonus.

As far as

Does loss of DEX mod also mean total loss of Dodge?
It seems the book indicates both “yes” and “no”. There seem to be multiple references to loss of DEX mod (like in DnD and Spycraft) and ”the one” single mention that this loss also results in total Dodge Defense loss. Some say these passages also infer a total loss of Parry Defense as well (though this is never stated).

Lose DEX lose all Dodge bonuses INCLUDING base dodge bonus. None of the passages you gave infer a loss of Parry as well as Dodge.

When it says you lose you DEX mod, what happens to Parry since it uses a STR mod?
It seems the book first had DEX adding to Parry (mentions DV in ability score section) and then switched to STR. Other references to loss of DEX mod then leave out Parry completely.

When you lose DEX your parry modifier does not change unless you are in a condidtion (flat footed, helpless, stunned) which specifically states a change in Parry.

Quote #2: States that any time you lose your Dex mod, you also lose all Dodge Bonuses, which in my mind is not the same as your Base Dodge Bonus (BDP), instead retaining a stupid bonus name from the SRD, which is too similar to BDP.

No it states quite clearly on the Character sheet Dodge Bonus. Why do you give credit for this in quote #3 in regards to parry and dodge, but not here?

Dodge Bonus: Any situation that denies you your Dexterity Bonus also denies you dodge bonuses.

Nowhere in the book is this rule contradicted. It does not unbalance the game, nor does it contradict any other rule, it clarifies them.

For some reason Shonuff, you fear this rule. It's your game you don't like it change it, but don't go looking out to the world for justification for changing it. You sem to think that feint will overpower the game, it won't, but once again change it if you don't like it. If a thief pulls off a successful feint on a soldier, he will be able to sneak attack him. Giving up either his attack for a round, or the rest of his attacks for the round, depending on level and feats. If so, then yes the soldier is going to be in for a world of hurt, oh well. Great examples of this abound (13th Warrior, Conan B&D, Red Sonya, etc.) and are different types and forms of feinting. For a more modern and strategic feint, '91's Left Hook was a SA on a massive scale.

I"ll close as I opened, do not go into meta type thinking when reading a rulebook, read it, look up words you do not understand, and then let the Words Mean Things, as in what you see is what you get, you don't need go loking for new definitions.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

I agree in principle with Murte, but...

Feint: If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to DV (if any).

This clearly means the character that has failed to Sense Motive against a feint loses his Dexterity bonus to DV. Words mean things, right? Is there a reference ("see p. XXX") here to an earlier rule which I am missing? Now, since DV is comprised of other things besides a Dexterity bonus, it seems unreasonable to go back and reference another rule to claim this means the loss of ALL dodge bonuses. Or is it sloppy writing? Did Mr. Sturrock mean to say:

Feint: If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use any of his Dodge bonuses to DV (if any).

Is this unbalancing? Only in the sense that Feint explicitly tells us that it works against dodge bonuses. So if you interpret this as reducing the character's Dodge bonus to +0 (giving him a Dodge DV of 10), then characters designed around parrying will never ever be affected by a feint. That is, by definition, unbalancing because it favors some kinds of characters over others. (Not to mention that a Feint is a typical fencer's tool designed to get past your opponent's parry as much as to catch him flatfooted.)

For myself, I will simply reinterpret (as Murte says, it is YOUR/MY game) the whole rule until I hear otherwise from Mongoose. A successful Feint removes BOTH the Str and Dex bonuses for the next attack. There -- balanced, and still allows high level characters with their high DV bonuses to put up a credible defense against a munchkinized Thief with Cha 20 and 14 ranks in Bluff.

 

[Shonuff]

For myself, I will simply reinterpret (as Murte says, it is YOUR/MY game) the whole rule until I hear otherwise from Mongoose. A successful Feint removes BOTH the Str and Dex bonuses for the next attack. There -- balanced, and still allows high level characters with their high DV bonuses to put up a credible defense against a munchkinized Thief with Cha 20 and 14 ranks in Bluff.

After an in depth study of the rules as a whole, I agree with this interpretation Yaun-Ti. It is well within the spirit of the other games I've read using a similar mechanic (DnD, Star Wars, Spycraft, Modern) and I also believe this is what the author meant (a loss of ability modifier bonuses to DV). I also think that since a total loss of defense has not occurred, sneak attacks are not possible (only when flat-footed, flanked, stunned, or otherwise helpless or unaware). It does seem more balanced but we may hear differently from Mongoose.

EDIT
Oh - and just to restate - this was "The ONE":

Dodge Bonus: Any situation that denies you your Dexterity Bonus also denies you dodge bonuses.
I wonder if the authors knew just how much of a big impact this has on the game. I’ll reference this single passage often (and call it “the one”) since it seems to unbalance and contradict the other mechanics mentioned. Other passages seem not to include this in their descriptions. In addition to the Dodge Bonuses on pg 160, is this mentioned again?

 

[Yokiboy]

For myself, I will simply reinterpret (as Murte says, it is YOUR/MY game) the whole rule until I hear otherwise from Mongoose. A successful Feint removes BOTH the Str and Dex bonuses for the next attack. There -- balanced, and still allows high level characters with their high DV bonuses to put up a credible defense against a munchkinized Thief with Cha 20 and 14 ranks in Bluff.

I think everyone will have to do something similar, and when it comes to Feinting your suggestion is quite elegant and simple.

But I got confused myself, regarding a combatants DV becoming a base 10 each time he's flat-footed! :shock: No wonder Vincent Darlage gave just about every NPC the Improved Initiative feat.

I really dislike making a single feat something required in order to even compete in combat. How come Uncanny Dodge isn't available as a feat, when there's a Reflexive Parry feat... :?

Oh whatever! I have to give the darn game a try. We're geared up to play it March 27, it would just be nice to understand the combat rules by then.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Murte]

OK, once again here it is... Sneak attacks can occur whenever an opponent loses his dodge OR parry bonuses, or when flanking. Flat footed denies both, feinting denies DEX which as per the one denies all dodge bonuses. The feller feinted can still parry, but if it is a thief, they can STILL sneak attack because they are denied DEX.

As far as a successful feint in combat it is no simple task. I urge you to actually play it as it before you change it. You will soon see how difficult a feint is, and for higher level characters how it must be heavily weighed. The other thing is Uncanny Dodge, Barbarian and Pirate both have this ability, and once they get Improved Uncanny Dodge, it makes them IMMUNE to sneak attacks except by a thief or pirate 4+ levels higher and that is in thief/pirate levels unless one is Zingarian.

In Conan, SA is both deadlier and harder to perform. With the reduced damgae threshold make it more likely one is going to have to make a save after getting SA'ed, but to get full use of a SA, one must often finesses, thereby putting the DR into DV. If a thief who realistically is going to wear leather jerkin at best fails to dispatch the opponent in the first round with a flat-footed SA, his only real chance is a feint in toe to toe, otherwise those 2d10 two handed weapons will take him out real quick, and for the same reason, massive damage.

Basically the SA rules encourage everyone to pick up 4 levels of Barbarian and or Pirate to not get SA'ed due to loss of DEX bonus and/or loss of parry and dodge effects.

 

[Yokiboy]

OK, once again here it is... Sneak attacks can occur whenever an opponent loses his dodge OR parry bonuses, or when flanking. Flat footed denies both, feinting denies DEX which as per the one denies all dodge bonuses. The feller feinted can still parry, but if it is a thief, they can STILL sneak attack because they are denied DEX.

Hello Murte, you seem annoyed at having to rephrase your thoughts about Feinting, but you're preaching to the choir; I haven't questioned how Feints work, as I'm quite happy with those rules. You seem to think that Shonuff and myself are the same person, but as you're not quoting either of us, I'm not sure who you're replying to. In either case your replies are helpful. 8)

Characters can also pick up Reflexive Parry, if they don't have access to Uncanny Dodge. It allowa you to keep your Parry Bonus even when flat-footed.

Huh, another look at the Classes and I know why Uncanny Dodge is only available as a Class Ability, and not a feat, the classes without access to Uncanny Dodge are at least as capable or better at parrying than dodging. My confusion has been cleared up.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Shonuff]

The other thing is Uncanny Dodge, Barbarian and Pirate both have this ability, and once they get Improved Uncanny Dodge, it makes them IMMUNE to sneak attacks except by a thief or pirate 4+ levels higher and that is in thief/pirate levels unless one is Zingarian.

Basically the SA rules encourage everyone to pick up 4 levels of Barbarian and or Pirate to not get SA'ed due to loss of DEX bonus and/or loss of parry and dodge effects.

Not by your reasoning.

Uncanny Dodge will NOT make a 4th level Barbarian or Pirate IMMUNE to sneak attacks if you allow a SA during a feint. But it does if they are flat-footed or (with Improved UD) flanked -- both situations that legally allows a SA.

Uncanny Dodge: From 4th level and above, the barbarian retains his dodge or parry bonus to Defense Value (if any) if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.

There is NO mention of retaining dodge and parry bonuses to DV if there is a loss of Dex bonus or denied Dodge Bonus.

Sneak attack was based on the old DnD days when it was called Backstab. According to the text, you need to catch them flat-footed (loss of Dodge and Parry bonuses), flanked (which is what I think you're attempting to turn into feint), or stunned (loss of Dodge and Parry bonuses).

I'll admit it if I'm wrong, but I want to be proven wrong.

 

[Murte]

dp

 

[Murte]

Shonuff, can you read what you have already posted?

Yoki, no I just pick out the sections and quote from them, always forget to mention who's is who's...

Shonuff, you are correct I did not clarify that Imp. Unc Dodge, does not apply to feinting.

Back to the reading of the what you have posted, reiterate the one over and over in your head until you realize that if you are denied DEX you lose Dodge. I'm not trying to make feint flanked nor vice versa. A successful feint denies DEX, thus denies Dodge bonuses, thus allows sneak attack. Very linear logic here, no hidden tricks or circles. I'm not trying to allow SA with a successful feint, the rules already do that.

Oh thanks for the strawman on the backstab. :roll:

And just to put it out there clear here is two seperate quotes form the assumably same poster...

Dodge Bonus: Any situation that denies you your Dexterity Bonus also denies you dodge bonuses.

There is NO mention of retaining dodge and parry bonuses to DV if there is a loss of Dex bonus or denied Dodge Bonus.

Maybe I'm reading your post(s) wrong, but aren't you contradicting yourself here? Actually you contadict yourself well in the second quote, how can you retain a dodge bonus if it is denied?

How about you just take out the Sneak Attack rules Shonuff, seems it will remedy all of your problems. You don't understand how the persuasive feat can be applied in combat, you don't like feint, etc. etc.

I'll step off this soapbox and play by the rules until there is an official change in them.[/quote]

 

[Yuan-Ti]

I still want to know why they don't just say this in the feint rules -- you lose all dodge bonuses. Wouldn't that be clearer and simpler, given that Conan actually has Class Dodge and Dodge DV?

Of course, the answer could easily be poor editing. :roll:

 

[Shonuff]

Maybe I'm reading your post(s) wrong, but aren't you contradicting yourself here? Actually you contadict yourself well in the second quote, how can you retain a dodge bonus if it is denied?

That is my question to you.

My statement in relation to barbarian/pirate Uncanny Dodge:
“There is NO mention of retaining dodge and parry bonuses to DV if there is a loss of Dex bonus or denied Dodge Bonus.”
--This was stated by me to show the hole in your argument. You stated that barbarians and pirates would eventually be immune to sneak attacks, right? How do you see that from the rules? In the section describing Uncanny Dodge – there is no mention that barbarians or pirates retain their dodge and parry bonuses to DV –WHEN- there is a loss of Dex bonus (like in a feint) –and- in cases when you are denied Dodge Bonuses (except, as it says, when flat-footed).

To be perfectly clear, this is what I see you saying:
-Successful feint causes a total loss of Dodge defenses because you lost your Dex bonus to DV (based on the one rule).
-You’re NOT flat-footed, flanked, etc.
-You can still Parry because the one said you lose all Dodge defense if you lose Dex to DV. Parry is left alone thus those using parry OK.
-Those Dodging are open to Sneak Attacks.
-You indicate barbarians/pirates of 4th level or higher retain their entire Dodge bonus when feinted, even in though they are NOT in a flat-footed or flanked situation. Thus - immune to sneak attacks.

What I’m asking:
-Not flat-footed, not flanked, not stunned.
-Thief not invisible.
-Thief successfully feinted barbarian/pirate.
-How, by looking at the book, does Uncanny Dodge fit in here?
-Where, under Uncanny Dodge, does it say that you keep your Dodge bonus when you lose your Dex to DV (or when you are denied your Dodge defense)?

My thoughts:
-Uncanny Dodge doesn’t make you immune to sneak attacks if you lose all Dodge as a result of a feint.
-Uncanny Dodge does make you immune to sneak attacks if you can ONLY be sneak attacked when flat-footed, flanked, stunned, or otherwise helpless. (Unless flanked by a pirate/thief of +4 levels)
-BTW this differs from my reading of DnD where the situation revolves around Dex bonus to AC (where SA seem possible when loss of Dex to AC).

Conclusion:
You have argued that a loss of Dex to Dodge ALWAYS = loss of Dodge. You then argue that, for a 4+ lvl barbarian/pirate that has been feinted and wants to dodge, loss of Dex to Dodge DOES NOT = loss of Dodge.

But the book doesn't say that. “Loss of Dodge” changes to “No Loss” for a barbarian/pirate only when in a flat-footed situation (or attacked by invisible foe).

To make your statement true, loss of Dex to Dodge = flat-footed. And this isn't true in all cases and certainly isn't true when being feinted because you can still parry.

A FIX maybe?
-Have the references indicate "a loss of Str or Dex bonuses to DV"
-Alter Sneak attack to say that.
-Alter Uncanny Dodge to say that.
-Alter Feint to say that.
-Publisher decide and clarify when there is a loss of Parry, Dodge, or both and include those in the text.

My main point:
Conan the RPG is, at times, attempting to set a new method of Defense while referencing old methods. It’s confusing and why we are having trouble agreeing.

My references to the one are there because I see this as the main problem. It is the one rule statement that is causing the problem for me (as you well know) and seems to run contrary to the rules system mechanics the game is based on and often refers to (IMO).

I do not appreciate being told to drop this from my game and go away because I don't like it. I think, as my very firt post shows, most of my questions are valid and we need some clarification.

I sincerely hope our discussions here help notify Mongoose of some of our questions and how each of us are attempting to make sense of things. Hopefully, they’ll make it all come together for us and we can enjoy this great game even more.

 

[Murte]

Shonuff stated:

My statement in relation to barbarian/pirate Uncanny Dodge:
“There is NO mention of retaining dodge and parry bonuses to DV if there is a loss of Dex bonus or denied Dodge Bonus.”
--This was stated by me to show the hole in your argument. You stated that barbarians and pirates would eventually be immune to sneak attacks, right? How do you see that from the rules? In the section describing Uncanny Dodge – there is no mention that barbarians or pirates retain their dodge and parry bonuses to DV –WHEN- there is a loss of Dex bonus (like in a feint) –and- in cases when you are denied Dodge Bonuses (except, as it says, when flat-footed).

To be perfectly clear, this is what I see you saying:
-Successful feint causes a total loss of Dodge defenses because you lost your Dex bonus to DV (based on the one rule).
-You’re NOT flat-footed, flanked, etc.
-You can still Parry because the one said you lose all Dodge defense if you lose Dex to DV. Parry is left alone thus those using parry OK.
-Those Dodging are open to Sneak Attacks.
-You indicate barbarians/pirates of 4th level or higher retain their entire Dodge bonus when feinted, even in though they are NOT in a flat-footed or flanked situation. Thus - immune to sneak attacks.

OK, once again, as I stated before :

Shonuff, you are correct I did not clarify that Imp. Unc Dodge, does not apply to feinting.

The line of -those dodging are open to Sneak Attacks, is wrong, if a feint is succesful you can either "dodge with no bonuses" or you can parry, but eitehr way you are open to sneak attack.

The line of -You indicate... is hopefully once and for all clear, of NO, as stated before, I was only thinking of flat foot and flank, it does not apply to a feint.

Thus since you have once again read more into what was written you have succeeded in confusing the entire issue, yet again.

You don't appreciate me telling you to play the game the way you want, oh well I have no control on how you "Take" things, and though no offense is meant, I cannot make you not take it.

I will agree with you that the rule for sneak attack should have stated whenever DEX is lost, since STR doesn't seem to be a very good "reaction" stat.

OH and final note, I never told you to "go away." :?

 

[Shonuff]

Hey Murte.

I've been at home sick recently and have had my nose in the book reading and rereading - trying to make sense of all this. Maybe I need a break and I'm sure my fever has not helped.

As I've been raising questions, I got the impression people (not just you) didn't like it and wanted me to shut up. I'm typically a lurker and not an argumentative person, but the issues with Conan bugged me and I have been somewhat Hell-bent on getting to the bottom of this. My goal was to hopefully help the game become better by assisting with the analysis, but I felt some treated me as if I was going to ruin the game for them or like I was questioning their faith or something.

Anyway - I apologize if I took you the wrong way. No hard feelings man.

I still can't say we agree completely, but I think we're getting closer and I guess that's progress for the game's sake.

Here's where I am now thanks to all the reading and discussions:
Other games cause a loss of Ability mod bonuses to Defense in certain situations and that is how I'm going to look at it. Sneak attacks are fine in situations when this occurs (like with feint) - as per other d20/OGL games. Uncanny Dodge keeps this from happening - as per other games. Total loss of Defense (Dodge/Parry), only happens when totally unaware and unable to defend yourself (like when flat-footed, stunned, immobilized, or helpless).

Thanks

 

[argo]

This post is going to be as long as any other in the thread. I won't blame you if you ignore me. I would ignore me too 8)

Before I respond to your specific questions, lets discuss theory. I have decided to base my rulings regarding defense on two postulates. These are not rules but my interpretations, my opinions. I am not telling you they are right, I am explaning what is in my mind when I answer your questions below so that you may understant not just what I think but why I think it.

Postulate the First: dnd's AC system combines both active (DEX bonus, dodge bonuses') and passive (armor) defenses into one value. You may loose active defenses for any number of reasons (flat footed: you aren't active yet. Feint: you were tricked) but you may never loose passive defenses. In Conan DV represents your active defenses and DR represents your passive defenses. You may still loose active defenses for any number of reasons but not passive defenses (passive defenses may be bypassesd in part or in whole but not lost). It is a misake to think of defenses in dnd terms where feinting a dwarf in full plate may only drop his AC by 1. He has still lost all his active defenses, in Conan that would mean he now has a DV of 10. You should think in these terms otherwise the system does not make sense as a whole. Note these exceptions: expertise bonus, fighting defensevly bonus, luck bonuses, insight bonuses, and any other such bonuses which may exist (other than natural armor) are active defenses but represent such a "hyper awarness" that they may not be lost.

Postulate the Second: The proofreading in Conan is utter crap. Many errors were caused by copy/paste errors where the rules from the SRD were not brought completly into line with the Conan system. A canny reader who is familiar with the language of the SRD can recognize these errors right away and should therefore look at the work as a whole and try to deduce the designer's intent from contex rather than be trapped by a literal reading of the text. While doing so keep in mind that one of the core game design philosophies behind any OGL game is that a mechanic should basically work the same in any situation and only be subject to modifiers based on circumstance, not have different behaviors under different conditions. That is what makes for a unified, simple, fast game system.

Now, let me try to dismount from my soapbox without making any more of an ass of myself than I already have and answer the questions you asked.

Dodge Bonus: Any situation that denies you your Dexterity Bonus also denies you dodge bonuses.
I wonder if the authors knew just how much of a big impact this has on the game. I’ll reference this single passage often (and call it “the one”) since it seems to unbalance and contradict the other mechanics mentioned. Other passages seem not to include this in their descriptions. In addition to the Dodge Bonuses on pg 160, is this mentioned again?

When characters are caught flat-footed, they lose all dodge and parry bonuses, so their Defense Value will always be the base of 10, assuming their size is medium.
Pretty neat and nasty. Harsh compared to DND or Spycraft but OK since there is DR for armor (unless finessed).

I just want us to keep these two quotes in mind.

Does loss of DEX mod also mean total loss of Dodge?
It seems the book indicates both “yes” and “no”. There seem to be multiple references to loss of DEX mod (like in DnD and Spycraft) and ”the one” single mention that this loss also results in total Dodge Defense loss. Some say these passages also infer a total loss of Parry Defense as well (though this is never stated).

Yes. The text under "the one" clearly states that this is so. Furthermore this is the way things have always worked. In dnd and Spycraft and other systems you have always lost your dodge bonuses with your Dex bonus, its just that in Conan your dodge bonus makes up a much larger part of your DV than in those games (I think that this was intended to make Conan a more "gritty" and deadly game).

Fruthermore I rule you loose all your Parry as well based on the text on p 160 where it says

A character will lose his Dodge Bonuses or Parry Bonuses to his DV as normal when caught flat-footed or when he is clinging for life on the edge of a mile-high cliff-top.

The "clinging for life" line is a wierd one. So I ask what does being flat-footed and climbing have in common? You loose your Dex bonus in both cases. Same argument by refrencing Uncanny Dodge and Reflexive Parry where the common link between flat-footed and invisible attacker is a loss of Dex.

Based on all that and my First and Second Postulates I have chosen to rule that any time the text reads "loose your Dex bonus" what they really mean is "loose all your dodge and parry bonuses". This makes for a unified system (Postulate 2) and perserves the distinction between active and passive defenses (Postulate 1). With that in mind lets move on.

When it says you lose you DEX mod, what happens to Parry since it uses a STR mod?
It seems the book first had DEX adding to Parry (mentions DV in ability score section) and then switched to STR. Other references to loss of DEX mod then leave out Parry completely.

On p 160 it says

When characters are caught flat-footed, they lose all dodge and parry bonuses, so their Defence Value will always be the base of 10, assuming their size is Medium.

Since I choose to rule that a loss of Dex is a loss of dodge and parry, like the flat-footed condition, I rule that you lose your Str bonus to Pary as well. What you may keep is bonuses which are neither dodge nor parry bonuses such as the bonus from Expertise.

So here are 7 questions that I hope to clarify for my game:
1. Do you let STR modify Parry or do you let DEX modify all Defense Values? [The book says both]

The refrence to Dex modifying both in the section on abilities is obviously another copy/paste error. Str modifies Parry

2. Do you allow a successful feint to do:
A) target loses Dex bonus to dodge [as it says in book]
B) target loses all Dodge Defense [referencing ”the one” statement made in book regarding Dodge Bonuses]
C) target loses both Dodge and Parry Defense [even though the book never says or infers this]

Feint denies the target his Dex, loss of Dex = loss of both dodge and parry. Answer C. In other words a feint defeats the targets active defenses (see Postulate the First).

3. Do you allow sneak attacks when it states “does not allow target to use DEX bonus to DV (if any)”? [The book says “no” since there is only a DEX mod. loss to Dodge. But then indirectly says “yes” by saying in “the one” that a loss of DEX bonus causes a total loss of Dodge.]

Dear god yes. Of course you get to sneak attack. There is nothing at all "indirect" about the text in the one, lose Dex = lose dodge. The fact that the guy writing the text for Sneak Attacks used the Conan terms "lose your dodge or parry" instead of the more general "lose your Dex" that he would have copy/pasted from the SRD is IMO just more evidence in support of "the one"

4. When grappling, what Defenses do you allow (both against other opponents and foe grappling you)? How does Parry fit in with grappling? [Book only addresses loss of DEX mod to other opponents]

When you are grappled you lose your Dex mod against opponents other than the one you are grappling. So If the opponent you are grappling tries to attack you ha has to roll against your normal dodge/parry just as if he was making a normal attack (except he has to use a light weapon and takes a -4 penalty, see the grapple rules). I imagine that he can attempt to penetrate armor/make a finesse attack normally. Opponents not engaged in the grapple make an attack roll against DV 10 (though if you are using expertise or have some other bonus to defense which is not a dodge or parry bonus then you get it) I see no reason why you can't parry when grappled. It will just be a parry with a DV of 10.

5. Being pinned does the following:
A) –4 to both Dodge and Parry vs other opponents [as in book, -4 DV]
B) –4 to Parry but no Dodge allowed since immobile
C) something else.

First off, pinning is a subset of grappling so you still loose your Dex bonus to DV (see above). Secondly, the book does not seem to make any rulling one way or the other about not being able to dodge when immobile but that makes sense so I think I would go with that. Answer B.

6. What kind of defenses do you allow a helpless person? [book unclear]

A helpless person has a flat DV of 10 + size mod and nothing can help that (not even expertise). Furthermore, he is vulneurable to a Coup de Gras (not good if a pirate is around!). Lastly, depending on what made him helpless, he may have an effective Dex of 0 in which case his Dv is 5 (this is the case if he is paralyzed but not if he is bound in ropes).

7. Do you allow a touch attack to follow a feint? [The book is unclear regarding feinting as above. If you choose B or C from question 2, then being feinted is potentially worse than being grappled or pinned since you would only have a DV of 10 against a following touch attack.]

Why on earth couldn't someone feint and then make a touch attack? You feint, you then make a meele attack on or before your next turn. A meele attack can always be a meele touch attack.


Well thats my opinion, for whatever its worth. BTW, good thread Shonuff. I always like a good debate. [/b]

 

[Shonuff]

I read every word.:shock:

Argo that was awesome!

You must have the Persuasive feat :wink:

Even with my fever and clogged head, it made sense to me and was very logical. I especially like the way you explain the Active Defenses vs. Passive Defenses in other games.

I've always been told in Star Wars (revised) and Spycraft that characters always kept their class bonus to Defense (like when Flat-footed). Is this your understanding too? (Thus Conan just takes another step forward and decided to remove them and rely on DR - like you said)

As for grappling and pinned. I have a question. You stated that you use normal parry/dodge vs. the guy holding you, but you have no active DV vs. others (therefore DV10). When you say "I see no reason why you can't parry when grappled. It would just be a parry with a DV of 10." -- This threw me off. If it is the opponent holding me, then I thought it was normal dodge/parry. If it was others, I thought I had no dodge/parry at all. So why the "parry with DV of 10"? -- I just wasn't sure I followed here.

When pinned, you said B. (-4 Parry and no Dodge since immobile). I assume this means -4 to Parry the opponent pinning you and no dodge vs. them? I assume that because don't others attack you at a DV of 10 and you have no Dodge/Parry at all.

What's your view on Uncanny Dodge and Reflex Parry?
Do you allow PC's to use Uncanny Dodge to avoid a Sneak Attack?
-or-
Is this ability only used for flat-footed situations?

I guess I would ask why (just looking for reasoning here more than a rule reference) would Uncanny Dodge / Reflex Parry work for flat-footed/invisible situations and not when tricked by a feint? Doesn't it sort of imply superior reflexes in situations where most would be caught standing still or off-guard?

My NyQuil is kicking in and I'm almost gone :?

But I'd love to hear more when you got a sec.

 

[GhostWolf69]

Around and round the sun we go
the moon goes round the earth...

Is it just me or do you huys get this amazing headache too?

Good posting every one, but I get a feeling we're all... what you call it?
... damn, lost it.... REPEATING OURSELVES!!!

I know how I will rule, and I'm confident that it is in the "spriit" of the game, it will be nasty, gritty, deadly and yes if you want to survive the first five sessions you better a) strike first b) strike hard and c) pray to the benevolent dice god to help you out, cause the rules won't.

Simple as that.

/wolf

 

[argo]

I'm just glad that I could produce something that was remotly coherent concerning such a twisted subject. :wink:

I've always been told in Star Wars (revised) and Spycraft that characters always kept their class bonus to Defense (like when Flat-footed). Is this your understanding too? (Thus Conan just takes another step forward and decided to remove them and rely on DR - like you said)

That is correct. In SW, Spycraft, d20 Modern, and many other OGL games you keep your class bonus to defense no matter what. I was a little suprised myself that Conan takes that away but it seems to me that the text is very clear. I can only surmise that it is one more rule that the designers added to make the game deadlier. If you feel that the game is a little harsher than your group likes (and considering your posts on the deadliness of feinting I think that might be the case) a very simple and very good house rule would be that whenever a character looses their "active defenses" they may keep theri base dodge/parry bonus as in SW. Thus a flat footed character's parry DV would be 10 + Base parry and that's it, no Str, no bonus from the Parry feat or any other bonus with the name "parry"

As for grappling and pinned. I have a question. You stated that you use normal parry/dodge vs. the guy holding you, but you have no active DV vs. others (therefore DV10). When you say "I see no reason why you can't parry when grappled. It would just be a parry with a DV of 10." -- This threw me off. If it is the opponent holding me, then I thought it was normal dodge/parry. If it was others, I thought I had no dodge/parry at all. So why the "parry with DV of 10"? -- I just wasn't sure I followed here.

When pinned, you said B. (-4 Parry and no Dodge since immobile). I assume this means -4 to Parry the opponent pinning you and no dodge vs. them? I assume that because don't others attack you at a DV of 10 and you have no Dodge/Parry at all.

Ok, so maybe I wasn't so coherent after all

One more time. When you are grappled you lose Dex and therefore all your parry/dodge (your active defense) against opponents not engaged in the grapple. Against oponents who are grappling you get to use your normal DV (and I would let the player use his dodge or parry DV without restriction) and the attacker gets a -4 and must use a light weapon.

Now, when you are pinned you are still grappled so all that still applies. In addition you take another -4 to DV against all opponents so that the opponent who is pinning you can now attack with a -4 penalty and you have a -4 to DV so they cancel. In addition you raised the issue that when you are pinned you are "immobile but not helpless". This is a good point and even though the book says nothing either way I think that it is enough to rule that a pinned character cannot use his dodge DV at all (just like you can't parry a touch attack). The comment about "it would just ba a parry with a DV of 10" was referring to the fact that you can still elect to use you parry instead of your dodge (it might make a difference, you can't parry a touch and you get a -2 to dodge when surrounded) but since you have lost your Dex bonus your DV will most likely be a 10.

On a completly unrelated note I will comment that nothing will teach you the grapple rules faster than playing a monk in a OA game 8)

Moving on now...

What's your view on Uncanny Dodge and Reflex Parry?
Do you allow PC's to use Uncanny Dodge to avoid a Sneak Attack?
-or-
Is this ability only used for flat-footed situations?

The rules are very clear on this point. Uncanny Dodge only protects you from being flat-footed and from loosing your active defenses against invisible attackers, not from feints or anythign else. Improved Uncanny Dodge only protects you from being flanked (which mean that not only can they not Sneak Attack you, they dont' get the +2 to attack either!) The same thing applies to Reflexive Parry. I will also point out that Uncanny Dodge lets you keep both your dodge and parry defenses, despite the name. If you want I can go into detail on why all this is so.

I guess I would ask why (just looking for reasoning here more than a rule reference) would Uncanny Dodge / Reflex Parry work for flat-footed/invisible situations and not when tricked by a feint? Doesn't it sort of imply superior reflexes in situations where most would be caught standing still or off-guard?

Not quite. It implies a superior "danger sense" against unseen threats. You can still be tricked (feint) or be in a position where you are physically limited from reacting to danger (climbing or balancing). There is no flavor text in the uncanny dodge entry in Conan but in most other d20 books the flavor text will state something like "react before his senses would normally allow him to." If that doesn't make sense right away then consider this: Uncanny Dodge does not let you pinpoint an invisible attacker even though you still keep your active defense against him. You know there is danger nearby when others would be unaware but you don't know exactly where it will come from. Now if you are fighting someone who feints you then you already know there is danger there, but you still don't know that he is about to feint high with his sword and stick his dagger in your belly. Does that help?


At any rate I hope that you feel better soon (NyQuill is the greatest narcotic, er, I mean medicine, yeah medicine ever :wink: ) and that your pbem game goes well.

Later.

 

[Yokiboy]

Hey Argo, I just want to tell you that I love you! :lol:

Thanks for clearing this up, we needed to close this issue.

Very elegantly argued as well.

TTFN,

Yokiboy