[CONAN] Raids into Cimmeria?

How man miles inland, would you say, is Cimmeria suseptible to Pict attacks?

Really, this question is about any invader. How far inland would you say is "normal" for a Vanir raiding party or a Hyperborean slaver party? How about Brythunian bandits?
 
Its just simply a question of the size of the raiding party.
A party of 4 going to steal a cattle or two could have less of a presence than 40.
The next question is what are they raiding, if its cattle or women, they only need to go to the nearest farmstead to the "border."
Not sure if I am answering the question correctly, but I don't think the ancient cimmerians really had a border patrol to keep an eye on the Picts or something.
 
I'm sure the Howardian-Cimmerian purists among you will label me a heretic saying blasphemy....
...but I think that Vanir raids can go quite deep into Cimmeria hinterlands if they have:
- reason for doing it
- logistical support (food & water) or ways/skills to get it

Why do I say so?
Well, the reasons are multiple and it has possibly something to do with my view of the world as a complicated system....

We know that the Hyborian Age is a fictional world and we know that REH did not write enough on these details, but if we take into consideration what really happened in the real world we could find inspiration.
It is worth remembering:

1) CIMMERIA IS NOT A UNIFIED COUNTRY
Cimmeria has no central government, no unified army, nobody caring for every Cimmerian.
So each Cimmerian clan must usually deal all alone with most problems.
So, sometimes, as long as you protect your clan/tribe territory, who care if the Vanir raid your neighbor tribe, especially if you have feuds with that tribes?
Seeing what happened between ancient Germans and Gauls (Caesar' De Bello Gallico) I see nothing wrong in some Cimmerian tribe occasionally allying with Aesir or Vanir in order to pillage another Cimmerian tribe.
Somebody among you could say: "Hey man, Cimmerian united at Venarium to fight vs the Gunderlanders!"
However, to me that was an exceptional cause.
My interpretation is that Gunderlanders were not stupid building a settlement there, possibly they did it believing that Cimmerians will never unite, since they never do that...
Furthermore Venarium is something different from a simple "Vanir or Pict Raid".
Venarium was an insult to Cimmerian pride, since it was supposed to be COLONISATION, not a raid.

2) CIMMERIA IS NOT A THICKLY INHABITED COUNTRY
My image on Cimmerian's land inhabitation is a rural based one, the opposite of a Classical Mediterranean inhabitation theory.
No main-center theory application here, not urbanisation at all.
Simply small villages/centers spread over a country.
A single clan should have been spread among 3 or 4 minor centers over a land the control.
Sometimes there should be a focal center for the tribe (e.g. an historical cemetery or a circles of stones)...but the tribe is spread among the hills.
On one hand this could mean that more land is controlled....
...but on the other hand it also means that the invaders can go on inside Cimmerian territory only as much as the single small centers collaborate in stopping the invaders.
I'm sure there is no "Inter-tribal" or "Inter-clan" border watching organization.
And sometimes the hilly topography means that small local feuding centers can be mixed with their positions.
Comunities can be quite small and sometimes you do not care whether Vanirs damage a neighbor, as long as Vanirs do not damage you.
Comunications can also be troublesome.
For example the Cimmerians tribes "A" and "B" are always at feud.
A Vanir warband hits a small village of Clan "A"
The survivors of this small "A" village report to the other warriors of Clan A.
However, cellphones do nto exist and so by the time the "A" Warriors come, the Vanir warband is already in clan "B" territory.
And nobody informed clan "B" beause they were enemies of clan "A"....smart Vanirs can exploit such situations...

Read Caesar's De Bello Gallico.
The smart Roman always exploited such things vs the Gauls.

3) CIMMERIAN LANDSCAPE
Furthermore these hills are rough, thickly forested.
No intensive Mediterranean agriculture here to modify the natural landscape.
Cimmerians should survive on a very simple economy based on:
- Hunting
- Herding
- Vary basic survival agriculture
Intensive Agriculture exploit small space to its maximum.
However, Cimmerian economy is just the opposite.
This is a kind of economy which requires wide spaces.
Comunities with "Evolved" economies (e.g. Aquilonians) need less land per person for surviving.
Comunities with Primitive economies (e.g. Cimmerians) need more space per person.
And wide spaces means a lot of wilderlands.
And you cannot accurately control wide lands without an organized control system/organization, which Cimmeria has not since it has no central organized national government.
A smart group of Vanirs can go quite deep into Cimmerian land exploiting the coverage offered by thick forests inhabited by nobody!

CONCLUSIONS:
I think that a small group of very smart Vanir can go quite deep into Cimmeria (even 200 miles or more!) as long as they do not bother raiding the first tribe they meet.
The only issue is: why should they want to go that deep?
If their focus if just to loot and pillage there are enough Cimmerians on the border for that....
But maybe there's some special reason for your Vanir warband to go that deep...and that's to me is a good starting point for an epic Conan campaign!
 
Great justifications from Luca.

I would also like to add that geography will play a part in how far raiders penetrate. A handy river course gets you deep into enemy territory, but a mountain pass is bound to have at least a hunting/trading party passing through on a regular basis meaning raiders will have to engage the enemy earlier.

As for motivations (though the quote regards Vanir it is to some degree applicable to Picts too), I like this post from Barabaric Adventures.

The Vanir live in snow-covered lands and are winter-bound throughout the majority of the year. During the warmer season they venture from their homes to prey upon the barbarian tribes around them. In this fashion, they believe, year by bloody year, they will eventually purge the world of their blood enemies, the Aesir and Hyperboreans. They despise each race with equal passion.

Vanir raids are known to be especially brutal. The Vanir are famed for burning all they cannot carry away with them. Vanirs dislike intrusions into their territories and will always destroy any settlements which come within several days’ march of their villages.
So due to being bound at home half the year by weather conditions raiding for anything and everything has its merit. Hides, food, weapons, livestock, none of which are readily available in the winter months in Vanaheim.
For Picts the motivation would be trophy heads, then loot.
As for going deeper into enemy lands, the above quote provides ample motivation. Specific families or individuals would be targeted as part of long standing hate feuds or as retribution for prior raiding, or perhaps a particular tribe is renowned as a centre of manufacture of fine leatherwork or weapons or is known to have recently acquired a large amount of wealth after successful raids.
Canny leaders will often go to great lengths to maximise loot potential, and a surprise attack deep within a territory believed to be safe by its inhabitants and thus less defended is a sound tactic where communities are far spaced and maintain little communication..
 
Matt_H said:
A handy river course gets you deep into enemy territory, but a mountain pass is bound to have at least a hunting/trading party passing through on a regular basis meaning raiders will have to engage the enemy earlier.

Yes. I agree. Thin population allows for it, too.
 
I feel that ad-hoc background reasons are the best for Vanir raids going deep into Cimmeria.

And the most epic and tragic it is, the better!!

Maybe the Vanir chieftain when was a young man has been a slave of a Cimmerian chieftain now living deep inside Cimmeria, so the Vanir is looking for revenge.

Or maybe a Vanir prophecy by an old Witch tells that the Vanir chieftain who will get a special spear (heirloom of a Cimmerian tribe) will rule over the whole Nordheim.

Or maybe a Cimmerian tribe of the deep hinterland found an old hoard belonging to the Atlantis Age and the story went as far as the ears of a proud Vanir leader who is planning to steal it.

Or maybe the son of A Vanir chieftain marries the daughter of a Cimmerian chieftain on the northern border whose traditional enemy Cimmerian clan lies deep inside Cimmeria.
Marriage alliances can be quite important if you check history. And sometimes marrying your daughter to a proud Vanir can be seen as a good tool to get an ally.

Etc...
Etc...

The number of possible stories is neverending
 
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