Conan MRQ

I also think that MRQ would be a poor fit to Conan.

And by the way, since the main argument technique by those who disagree seems to be ad hominem fallacy, let me just establish this: I am not a "D20 lover". I am currently in two weekly campaigns, playing in one and running one, and both are MRQ. I like the system a lot.

However, it is a system that models low level gritty combat, where your rise to heroism is based solidly on your increasing access to magic. It is a poor fit to the Conan background, which puts a clear division between magic and swordplay, and where high skill characters can overcome large numbers of foes.

It doesn't have total hit points anymore, incidentally, and you get a fixed number of indivisible parries. However, the damage bonuses availiable to characters are considerably lower.
 
I appreciate the numerous and detailed examples of Demetrio but I will add another "real" example (that is from a scenario).
Some of you may or may not remember the GURPS solo adventure Conan and the Wyrmslayer (of course GURPS is another system, but it's close enough to the RQ system for combat to take it as an example, expecially because epic fighting and HPs are also quite limited).

In the beginning, Conan (you play that guy) is involved in a fight to deliver a girl against 15 primitive men. Even with his abilities and while he is mounted it is a hard fight but he can survive because you don't need to kill as in D&D to win. Indeed GURPS, as Runequest, enable you to stun your opponent. Thus the guy may still be able to fight but not for this day. Moreover you can even maim in RQ.

This doesn't mean your character isn't frail but you can put your opponent out of the way more easily than in D&D because most fights there are to the death and can be thus time consuming.
 
In the beginning, Conan (you play that guy) is involved in a fight to deliver a girl against 15 primitive men. Even with his abilities and while he is mounted it is a hard fight but he can survive because you don't need to kill as in D&D to win. Indeed GURPS, as Runequest, enable you to stun your opponent. Thus the guy may still be able to fight but not for this day. Moreover you can even maim in RQ.

Eh? I'm not seeing your point. You can stun in d20, there are rules for subdual damage. If by "stun" and "maim" you mean "take out in a single blow" well that's true... but they can do that to you too.
 
Demetrio said:
Balthus' combat could happen in BRP terms by getting really lucky with the dice, rolling a string of criticals and/or specials with a relatively low actual skill score and/or some bad rolls for the Picts. Unlikely

Unlikely is the word.

And a skill of 880%?!? Oh well, if that floats your boat...

I find 3-4 opponents per turn to be the max - that's a GM call though.

Me too, although it would partly depend upon how long a round is in the game system and also how the book the game is based on depicts combat (in Howard, 3-4 combatants/round seems fair). You don't seem to think that simulating the sorts of combats seen in the literature is terribly important though, whereas I do.

If Conan has a damage bonus of d10 (say), to cleave an enemy in half - as he does on numerous occasions in Howard, he really has to overcome their HP in one blow. A special hit with a broadsword would allow him 2d8+2+d10 and that would be good enough. Maybe that silly 500% figure is necessary for him though because that would allow him a special hit every attack and that's what he seems to need.

I have to call, "Poor Form" on your response:

1) You edited my statement by cutting off the cool part - where I point out that the system actually supports the scene. And you did so just to toss a barb.

2) "And a skill of 880%?!? Oh well, if that floats your boat...".
I think I've been accommodating during this discussion, even looking up data to answer your questions, this kind of stuff is unnecessary, and also presumptuous.

I mentioned Elrics' skill of 880% because you came down pretty hard on the poster that suggested a skill of 500%. When in fact, very high skill levels is a valid way of depicting heroic level combat abilities in BRP games. You hit on the reason yourself, the character can make multiple attacks and still often make critical and special hits - blowing by defenses and causing high damage.

As for me, although I do accept very high skills as a valid option to simulate heroic games, BRP offers other options that I prefer to use. I don't recall ever playing or GMing a PC with a skill over 130's, but I probably would up that a bit for Hyborian Age gaming.
 
kintire said:
I also think that MRQ would be a poor fit to Conan.

And by the way, since the main argument technique by those who disagree seems to be ad hominem fallacy, let me just establish this: I am not a "D20 lover". I am currently in two weekly campaigns, playing in one and running one, and both are MRQ. I like the system a lot.

However, it is a system that models low level gritty combat, where your rise to heroism is based solidly on your increasing access to magic. It is a poor fit to the Conan background, which puts a clear division between magic and swordplay, and where high skill characters can overcome large numbers of foes.

It doesn't have total hit points anymore, incidentally, and you get a fixed number of indivisible parries. However, the damage bonuses availiable to characters are considerably lower.

The discussion has flowed over from MRQ to BRP in general, which is where the total hit points came in and the other combat options.

But speaking of MRQ, I've already admitted not being very knowledgeable about MRQ specifically, but even with a quick scan of the rules I come up with Hero Points and Legendary Abilities that, in my mind, takes the game out of low level gritty combat.
 
Hold on...

I think you'll find that I've actually acknowledged your arguments and have expressed appreciation of your providing hard fact to back up your opinion. Unlike some other BRP enthusiasts on this thread.

I cut the quote at unlikely because although the combat is possible, as you say, it is very unlikely. Not entirely off the wall unlikely but were you to run a dozen such combats I'd be interested to see the results...

High skill levels are one thing. But the premise of BRP is that anything over 100% is extraordinary (though not super rare of course) and anything over 200% is super rare.

800%+ is just off the scale. It's like saying 'oh he must be 40th level - actually probably higher - in d20 terms'. But of course in d20 he wouldn't need to be... I mean how many experience rolls are needed to get 800%? Even if you have a substantial bonus to your experience check (say +33), you'll only succeed on one in every 3 attempts. So to drive skill from 100% to 800% would take 200 experience rolls. That's a long time... and a lot of combat... it begins to undermine the 'reality' of the game world, if you get my meaning. Heroic characters shouldn't be completey off the charts. The only Chaosium RQ 'character' I ever saw with 500% attack chances was the Crimson Bat, which was a foe beyond even the most powerful party of Rune level characters you could realistically imagine. It was off the mortal scale. Is Elric (or Conan) off the mortal scale to the same extent? I don't think so.
 
Hero points exist because the combat is gritty: if they were not there character mortality would be at Cthulhu levels. Legendary abilities are useful, but rare.

MRP is not a "gritty" system in the classic sense. The COMBAT system is, but as someone else pointed out, you are supposed to supplement it with magic. Even the basic combat system isn't Riddle of Steel, but its much grittier than d20.
 
Legendary abilities are useful, but rare.

Unike d20 Feats of course which can help differentiate between characters and spice up both combat and other dice rolling situations. In Chaosium RQ it was your cult and magic that helped with that kind of thing... geases and the like.
 
The big question here that I've been addressing is, "Can MRQ/BRP do Hyborian Age gaming". I think that it can. Would a MRQ Conan be the best game for all Conan gamers? Of course not, no system can or will ever be able to make that claim (different strokes for different folks).

I think the most negative thing anyone can say is that the current MRQ rules can't do the Hyborian Age setting to their taste - to go beyond that is to attempt to present opinion as objective fact.

So, how could MRQ go about it?

1) Super high level skills: I'm not fond of this one, but it is an option. The rules could allow PC to start off at high levels and introduce alternate skill increase rules for more rapid advancement. You would have to alter your perception of what "off the charts" is. If the rules are folded into the setting, than they won't undermine the reality of the game world - they are the reality of the game world.

2) Introducing alternate combat rules: BRP offers many different ways to compute Hit Points, make multiple attack and defense rolls, etc. Mongoose could tweak the system in a number of way to make it more Hyborian Age friendly.

3) MRQ's Hero Points and Legendary Abilities: Perhaps all that would have to be done is having the rules being more generous with Hero Points and Legendary Abilities for PC's. If, as has been posted above, magic is necessary to make powerful PC's in MRQ, this would be a logical change in the rules for a setting where the heros don't often have access to magic.


So, how will MRQ go about it?

I don't know, we'll have to wait and see if they even try. But, I have faith in the flexibility of the BRP/MRQ system and in Mongoose's ability to tweak the system as/if needed to create rules to support The Hyborian Age setting.
 
A combination of 2) and 3) would be best to my mind. The big problem with 1) is that rapid skill advancement, logically, should apply to everyone in the world - even if not to quite the same extent as pcs - giving generally higher skill levels and undermining the purpose of the 'reform'.

As I say, I'd rather such creative thought went into sorting out the current system to make it better, rather than introducing a new variant of another system, which would then still need tweaking to iron out its problems.

I might start lobbying for RQ to switch to the d20 system? Why not? Many people like it... and I'm sure it could be made to work.
 
kintire said:
Eh? I'm not seeing your point. You can stun in d20, there are rules for subdual damage. If by "stun" and "maim" you mean "take out in a single blow" well that's true... but they can do that to you too.
May be but it's probably easier to achieve with RQ system. I'm sure D20 is much more difficult (if not time-consuming) to stage such a fight.
Granted however the Conan system included a lot of things that we see in RQ (e.g. armor sustracting damages rather than increasing the striking chance).
 
The King said:
May be but it's probably easier to achieve with RQ system. I'm sure D20 is much more difficult (if not time-consuming) to stage such a fight.

Just ran a game Saturday where the PCs were hired to bring in a corrupt ranger on the Pictish Frontier. They were charged with bringing the ranger in alive as he had kidnapped some women and the authorities wanted him alive for questioning. The PCs located him at a bar. They fought the rangers buddies, killed one but used the flat of their blades with the others and the ranger they were after. All told they used subdual damage to knock 4 opponents unconscious. The combat ran as long as most combats with 9 combatants without any confusing complexity. YMMV
 
Demetrio said:
A combination of 2) and 3) would be best to my mind. The big problem with 1) is that rapid skill advancement, logically, should apply to everyone in the world - even if not to quite the same extent as pcs - giving generally higher skill levels and undermining the purpose of the 'reform'.

As I say, I'd rather such creative thought went into sorting out the current system to make it better, rather than introducing a new variant of another system, which would then still need tweaking to iron out its problems.

I might start lobbying for RQ to switch to the d20 system? Why not? Many people like it... and I'm sure it could be made to work.

Good points on problems with option 1, I've never been keen on super high skills or rapid advancement either. I was happy to see MRQ didn't go that route with their version of Elric.

We're talking setting here, so I think that you'd be lobbying for a d20 Glorantha book, and I'm sure it could be made to work and be preferred by a certain group of gamers.

I'm sure you'd get howls of protest and declarations that it can't be properly done, but not from me. I'm more of a spread the fun kind of guy. If a publisher can make money putting out a popular setting using different systems than gods bless them.
 
I think the most negative thing anyone can say is that the current MRQ rules can't do the Hyborian Age setting to their taste - to go beyond that is to attempt to present opinion as objective fact.

I don't think this is a fair summary. Of course, if you don't like d20 you won't want to run Conan in it, but its a question of genre. D20 Conan is modelling a genre where physical skills are powerful and magic, while not exactly weak, is limited. MRQ is modelling a genre where physical skills are weak, and magic is ubiquitous. Conan is a world where a warrior, with no magic of any kind, can slay twenty inferior opponents. I think d20 models that much better than MRQ.

Importantly, this is not a criticism of MRQ. MRQ, or any other RQ for that matter, just isn't trying to model a world like that. It would be possible to ram the system into something that does, I'm sure, but it wouldn't look much like RQ when you had finished.
 
800%+ is just off the scale. It's like saying 'oh he must be 40th level - actually probably higher - in d20 terms'. But of course in d20 he wouldn't need to be... I mean how many experience rolls are needed to get 800%?

The 880% represented Elric using Stormbringer - a sword that, on its own, can waste entire armies (and something Elric does single-handedly on several occasions). But I also agree that its unnecessary, and I addressed that in Elric's skills when designing the Elric of Melnibone game. He's good; Stormbringer's a nasty, nasty weapon, but the whole 880% schtick has gone. There are other ways to model Elric's capabilities, with and without the Black Blade.
 
Um.. Elric has his sword, which is distinctly abnormal (and I recall he is pretty ineffectual without it) and I seem to recall Hawkmoon had several magic items, including the Sword of the Dawn - though it is a long time since I read Moorcock. I also don't recall Hawkmoon being that tough really (I mean he wasn't crap exactly but he wasn't a one man army, relying on artefacts, often getting knocked unconscious and captured to be freed by deus ex machina).

Conan, on the other hand generally has unexceptional - and often inadequate -equipment. He prevails through brawn and savagery.

A big difference between RQ and d20 is how stats influence skills. In RQ good stats give you decent starting levels in a skill and (if the mechanic still works that way) aid experience rolls to improve the skill. In d20 the stat bonus can often make up a substantial portion of the skill level even at high levels.
'
Say I have a BAB of +12 and a str of 22 (for +6). fully 33% of my attack bonus is coming from the stat. At low levels the difference is even more profound... a level 2 Soldier will have BAB +2 and Str of (say) 18 (+4). 66% of his skill is coming from his stat.

RQ simply does not reward high stat characters in the same way.
 
kintire said:
I think the most negative thing anyone can say is that the current MRQ rules can't do the Hyborian Age setting to their taste - to go beyond that is to attempt to present opinion as objective fact.

I don't think this is a fair summary. Of course, if you don't like d20 you won't want to run Conan in it, but its a question of genre. D20 Conan is modelling a genre where physical skills are powerful and magic, while not exactly weak, is limited. MRQ is modelling a genre where physical skills are weak, and magic is ubiquitous. Conan is a world where a warrior, with no magic of any kind, can slay twenty inferior opponents. I think d20 models that much better than MRQ.

Importantly, this is not a criticism of MRQ. MRQ, or any other RQ for that matter, just isn't trying to model a world like that. It would be possible to ram the system into something that does, I'm sure, but it wouldn't look much like RQ when you had finished.

I think your actually supporting my case. MRQ core may not fit Conan well, but that doesn't mean the system can't be tweaked to get the job done.

d20 is based on D&D, a lot of people felt that D&D would be a very poor fit for Conan, but with the proper tweaks d20 Conan seems to get the job done for a lot of players.

MRQ is a BRP derivative and BRP had been used to publish fantasy, modern, sci-fi and even supers games long before d20 came along and was used as a tool kit for multiple genres.

I confidently stand by my statement.

I'd also like to add that we're talking about Conan here, not the Forgotten Realms or some other fantasy world specifically created to support a given system. Conan has been done by GURPS and had it's own system by TSR. I don't think there is any question that the Conan license will outlive d20, if Mongoose doesn't do a different version than some other company some-odd years down the road will. It's such a powerful IP that it will continue to resurface in RPGs and many other markets.
 
Demetrio said:
Um.. Elric has his sword, which is distinctly abnormal (and I recall he is pretty ineffectual without it) and I seem to recall Hawkmoon had several magic items, including the Sword of the Dawn - though it is a long time since I read Moorcock. I also don't recall Hawkmoon being that tough really (I mean he wasn't crap exactly but he wasn't a one man army, relying on artefacts, often getting knocked unconscious and captured to be freed by deus ex machina).

Conan, on the other hand generally has unexceptional - and often inadequate -equipment. He prevails through brawn and savagery.

A big difference between RQ and d20 is how stats influence skills. In RQ good stats give you decent starting levels in a skill and (if the mechanic still works that way) aid experience rolls to improve the skill. In d20 the stat bonus can often make up a substantial portion of the skill level even at high levels.
'
Say I have a BAB of +12 and a str of 22 (for +6). fully 33% of my attack bonus is coming from the stat. At low levels the difference is even more profound... a level 2 Soldier will have BAB +2 and Str of (say) 18 (+4). 66% of his skill is coming from his stat.

RQ simply does not reward high stat characters in the same way.

Stormbringer is a powerful item, as I pointed out up thread, Chaosium's Elric with 880% was with Stormbringer, his normal skill with greatswords was 150% - the difference was Stormbringer. Stormbringer also does awesome damage, Pow drain, etc.

Elric is ineffectual, or rather physically weak, without his elixirs or Stormbringer to bolster him. Elric is highly skilled in combat and the magical arts in his own right, his body fails him.

How stats + skill work in a system is a matter of taste. You could start a whole new thread on what should be more important on the stat/skill relationship.

What you might model in a young d20 Conan as high stats to get a decent attack, because his skill attack bonus is fixed due to level, could be modeled in MRQ with high stats and additional skill points - and role-played as a natural talent for combat.

Using the Resistance Chart (BRP) a Str 22 character vs. a Str 18 character would be a 70% vs. 30% conflict in other strength tests. Your examples don't do justice to the expanded uses of stats within the system.

The rewards for high stats in MRQ needs a more in depth investigation before you make these blanket statements (IMO). MRQ is a system, you have to know the nuances of said system before passing judgment with authority. Or, or course, you could just decide that MRQ isn't for you and leave MRQ Conan to those that care to play it.
 
Look opposed tests like str vs str are rare compared to skill based tests/combat. (In point of fact the way opposed stat checks work in RQ aren't mechanically the same as other opposed rolls like combat, which is inconsistent - to be the same one should multiply one's stat by 5, use that as a % chance and then proceed as 'normal', thus 22 vs 18 becomes 110% vs 90% becomes 110% vs 80%, assuming the rule for 100+ still works the same*) And combat and skill rolls in RQ are far, far more heavily biased towards skill than stat. As I say, Moorcock's characters relied heavily on artefacts, and in Hawkmoon's case deus ex machina to win. Conan relies onhis own power and ferocity.

Chaosium's Elric with 880% was with Stormbringer

And Loz pointed out that was a crap method of modelling it. What works better for your argument is his assertion that he might have a better way of modelling it. Except we've established that Elric and Hawkmoon are different kinds of heroes to Conan, relying more on their artefacts rather than their own physical prowess.

leave MRQ Conan to those that care to play it

Well I would. Except it MRQ Conan would represent a diversion of resources from d20 Conan, which is well established and is a system well suited to the particular needs of the genre. It is now at a stage where there are a few issues that could do with resolving to make it a very good fit indeed. RQ Conan will start from scratch and the first attempt will, as is the case with all rpgs, miss the mark in several areas (like d20 Conan). So even if the system is as good for modelling the Hyborian Age - and I'm more convinced than I was that it can, but still not convinced it's as good - it's a step backwards that will merely please MRQ devotees who dislike d20 Conan but will delay the introduction of a mechanically sounder Conan system (be it d20 or MRQ).

Of course if Mongoose have lost the taste for producing d20 Conan then they'll naturally switch to using their house system as a basis. There are some good commercial reasons for them to do that. And I'm pretty sure for their comments that's what they'll do - they've gone from 'no plans' to 'no plans at this moment'. I think it's a shame because they could probably sort out d20 Conan's problems (MD threshold, 2HW overpowerment, the obvious spell and feat imbalances) fairly quickly and give us as good a system as we're likely to get. Instead we'll have an initially flawed (because they always are at the first attempt or two as the system gets hammered to shape the requirements of the world) RQ Conan... 'triffic.

Not to mention pissing off those who dislike RQ and prefer d20, who are not a small number (not me, I'd be pissed of because they'd abandon a system that works pretty well and with tweaking could work extremely well and in which I've invested more than a few quid).

Running the two systems alongside each other just means a diversion of resources. When two different companies use different systems to model the same world (like d20 Cthulhu - which incidentally is a concept that I think stinks because of the way the world in question works)versus 'proper' Cthulhu it's not an issue. In this case Mongoose would be diverting resources from itself. The only sensible move is to choose one or t'other (or another system like a modified Traveller say..)[/i]


*Actually the RQ combat mechanic could surely be hastened in its resolution by converting it to the 'opposed table' of str vs str etc. If attack and parry were divided by 5 (so 100% became 20, 60% became 13 etc) then rather than two 100% warriors slugging it out until the one in twenty roll that means one misses his parry, you could just roll 20 vs 20 for a 50% chance of a successful attack each round - but the resolution would still be 'fair'. Equally 30% vs 20% would no longer have a dreary sequence of missed attacks but would become 6 vs 4 for a 66% chance of a successfu attack and 4 vs 6 for a 33% chance.

Sorry for the digression but the thought struck me and I wanted to get it down before I forgot.
 
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