Conan MRQ

[Clovenhoof]

Thanks for the analysis Demetrio, I think it is quite usable.

The key point about opposed rolls is that either side can botch their rolls (usually). So if there's a 75% attack and 75% parry, the total hit chance is just 19%. In a one-on-one, of course. If there are multiple attackers, the system immediately breaks, as Demetrio has demonstrated.

And that's why RQ is better suited to run an hyborian age adventure.

After all, you're not supposed to be as powerful as Conan in Conan RPG,

That's just wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to begin. Conan RPG _is_ a heroic game, where you do play extraordinarily capable characters. Nobody gets to be as Uber as Conan because Conan rolled 18s for all of his stats [check out the various D20 Conan stat blocks to verify]. But that's about it. The PCs are perfectly able and supposed to become really awesome and legendary butt-kickers.

Just playing _in_ a dangerous world where somewhere, at some time, a legendary hero is known to exist just doesn't cut it. I play Conan _because_ it lets characters be awesome.

If you don't like that, well maybe I can interest you in the Dark Eye game, where all the big campaigns revolve about some major official NPCs whose awesome deeds the flimsy player characters are permitted to witness without having any notable influence whatsoever.

As always it's a matter of taste, but the Conan RPG setting is definitely, ultimately NOT about having weak, frail and inept characters.

 

[Demetrio]

After all, you're not supposed to be as powerful as Conan in Conan RPG

Quite. And I showed that Conan in RQ terms can't handle multiple foes but a character who's much weaker than Conan (both physically and in terms of combat power) can nonetheless manage to do so in d20.

As Clovenhoof says, if I'm playing heroic fantasy I want to play a hero. My old humakti was a hero because he had copius magic to help him and because the setting was one that suited RQ (it was built for it...)

If I want to play an average Joe, I'll play Cthulhu. If I want to play a hero, i want a system that let's me build a hero who can do stuff like we find the lesser characters in Howard doing (like Valeria coping easily with multiple foes or Balthus and his dog going taking over a dozen picts with them before they fell - and Balthus wasn't a super-toughguy by any means).

 

[warzen]

So RQ is not for you, because you won't be able to stand in a courtyard and take down the one hundred guards rushing at you with this system, while you will with d20.

Fine.

As we try to have a different vision of the PCs in the hyborian age, we are using different systems to suit our needs.

W.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Please don't use hyperbole unless you really need it. The problem isn't that RQ doesn't let you stand against 100 guards. (That would also be the demise of most D20 characters.) The problem is that it doesn't let you stand against THREE guards. The problem is that you can't even build an actual CONAN that would stand against, say, five guards.

 

[Demetrio]

It also doesn't allow a much difference in approach to combat.

d20 gives you Finesse versus Melee (which RQ won't unless you use hit locations), Feinting via Bluff, the bonuses of the various Fencing styles as well as the Combat Manouevers which RQ does have equivalents to (though probably not as many available).

If I want to play a finesse based RQ fighter, I simply make 'called shots' to target an unarmoured location. If all locations are armoured, i'm buggered and must hope for a lucky crit. In d20 I have a different stat modifying my chance to hit, the option to pick a feat that changes my damage modifier and it models the chance of finding a chink in otherwise complete armour that does not reduce it to a tiny chance even if my character is very skilled.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Oh yeah, that's another thing. I like systems that allow my character to do something other characters can't, or at least not everyone can do. In D20, that is accomplished by Feats and Class Abilities. In Savage Worlds, there are no classes but you get Edges.

In RQ, there is no direct equivalent. What you do have is Runes. But rune magic, while a cool idea in itself, has very little to do with a Conanesque look and feel. The only rune I know of in Conan is the Rune of Jhebbal Sag.

 

[Demetrio]

Look at BRP/MRQ: Firstly, at the beginning of the game, even your key professional skills will be somewhere around 50-60%, and most other skills at a real flimsy value like 13%.

To be fair, it's not necessary to start at 'low level' in either system. I'd not be happy playing a RQ character who wasn't 80%+ in most of his key skills but then I don't really like d20 charactes below about level 4.

A problem with RQ is that improving your skills can take ages. It also rather encourages using skills simply to get the experience check. Or training (which is very unConan). These aren't insurmountable problems but it's all stuff that needs addressing. And frankly that effort would be better put into tweaking/cleaning the d20 system that we currently have.

 

[warzen]

The problem is that you can't even build an actual CONAN that would stand against, say, five guards.

It's so easy... Give Conan 500% in his sword skill, that's all.

One thing you should do, Clovenhoof and Demtrio, is read the rules before saying non sense.

But anyway, as I've already said, some are looking for more heroic system than BRP is. There's no point for you trying to explain why d20 is so better than BRP, as they are not doing the same thing.

W.

 

[Demetrio]

One thing you should realise is that giving character wholly unrealistic skill levels like 500% to fix a problem is not an argument. And Conan therefore needs 500% in dodge too. Few players or GMs would say that skills over 200% were reasonable in the RQ system let alone your silly figure.

So tell me what skill level the young Balthus should have so he and his dog could kill over a dozen picts before being overwhelmed? To me, he, or Amalric or Valeria is the kind of character most pcs would want to emulate.

Personally I though the whole point of sword and sorcery was to play heroic characters in a larger than life world.

 

[Clovenhoof]

In my previous post, I actually was almost typing it but then thought it was unnecessary as it should go without saying. Apparently, I was wrong, so here goes:
...build a LEGAL character...

Everything's possible when you cheat. You can also give a D20 Conan character 60 Dodge Defense and 500 Hit Points if you simply ignore the rules. That just doesn't count. There is no way a human RQ character could ever legally (!) get values like 500%, let alone in multiple skills.

Personally I though the whole point of sword and sorcery was to play heroic characters in a larger than life world.

You got it. ^^

 

[rabindranath72]

I too think that RQ is too gritty for the kind of action that Conan games should try to describe. Or at least, too gritty to describe characters like Conan and Balthus. That's also quite strange, since most of the times I hear people say how much they love d20 Conan since it is "gritty". I do not see this grittiness at all. It may be grittier than D&D, but compared to RQ it's still a fairly heroic system, which is quite fine. Unless you want to play the characters which end on the wrong side of Conan's blade :lol:

 

[Troll66]

The RQ system does Lankmar, Hawkmoon and Elric. I see is no reason it cannot handle the conan genre. Characters should start of at a decent level of ability and have some hero points in their pocket.

 

[Demetrio]

Tell me how the multiple enemy combat problem is resolved in the Eternal Champion games you mention.

 

[Sir Hackalot]

How about those of you who think that RQ is the best system for Conan go ahead and post some RQ sheets of Conan, Belit, Valeria and others to show us how it can work.

 

[Demetrio]

How about those of you who think that RQ is the best system for Conan go ahead and post some RQ sheets of Conan, Belit, Valeria and others to show us how it can work.

Mmmhmm. And maybe run us through a combat where an unarmoured Conan fights his way clear of a score of foes (as seen in Slithering Shadow) and take us through a fight between a chainmail clad Conan and twenty hyenas (as seen in Queen of the Black Coast).

 

[AKAmra]

Tell me how the multiple enemy combat problem is resolved in the Eternal Champion games you mention.

In baseline BRP, only turning on the "Skills over 100%" option:

Successive parries are made at a cumulative -30%. So, in the 150% skilled PC vs. three opponents situation described up-thread the PC's parries, assuming all three opponents successfully attack, would be 150%, 120% and 90% - those are pretty good odds for the PC.

As for the PC's attacks: A character can divide his skill to make multiple attacks as long as all attacks are at least 50%. The 150% PC could make attacks at 150% or 50%/50%/50% or 100%/50% or 75%/75% or any other combination that totals 150%.

If the PC is fighting common fodder opponents, say the 30%-50% skill range, I think that's going to make for a pretty heroic fighting scene.

 

[Demetrio]

Right, so let's say I have a character with attack and parry of 150%.

He's up against three foes who each have 50% (which I regard as rather low for trained soldiers, the Lunar Empire's legions would have sneered at such paltry attack chances, but I'll go with that for simplicity).

Now, as you say , the pc will defend with a 95%, 95% and 90% chance and each attack has only a 50% chance of success. So... he has a 10% chance of suffering at least one hit every round. It takes four hits to drop him (five if he's superduper tough) so he'll last 40 rounds against three foes per round. Not bad.

Four foes is tougher because he's going to be hit every other round and so will last only 8-10 rounds at most. Of course he'll still have dropped eight or nine of his foes in that time.

So it really depends how many opponents you think can combine against one character. If it's three then RQ will do okay. If four then we must assume that Balthus has 150% - or thereabouts - skill. Which I'd say was quite high for a fairly green woodsman from Tauran. Especially if the warlike Picts he's facing have only 50% attack.

So fair enough, I can see it working to an extent if we allow that pcs can 'cheat' and gain double hit points - and if we allow that pcs will be starting with weapon skills in the region of 100%.

I'm struggling to see why it's an improvement on the current d20 system that achieves the same with fewer dice rolls.

I'm also uncertain as to why parry merely deducts 30% from each successive attempt but attack must be evenly divided. Not exactly the intuitive mechanics that others have mentioned in BRP's favour. A minor point.

Incidentally if we assume six is the absolute maximum number of foes that could attack a character then 245% is the maximum necessary parry/dodge (not the postulated 500% by the comedian above).


AKAmra, as you've been good enough to provide some facts, I wonder if you could clarify this: is the d4/d6/2d6 damage bonus still in effect in BRP/RQ. ie are str+siz 33 and str+siz 41 the key stat combinations to get d6 and 2d6 respectively. Or have they toned down the sudden jump from d6 (nice) to 2d6 (WOW!)?

 

[AKAmra]

The 1d6/2d6 jump in DB is still present in the core Chaosium BRP book. My Copy of MRQ Elric has 26-30 +1d2, 31-35 +1d4, 36-40 +1d6, 41-45 +1d8, 46-50 +1d10. It appears that Mongoose chose to stretch it out - a common BRP house rule in the past.

We don't have to assume Balthus has a skill of 150%, Balthus' combat could happen in BRP terms by getting really lucky with the dice, rolling a string of criticals and/or specials with a relatively low actual skill score and/or some bad rolls for the Picts. Unlikely, but so is the chances that a fairly green woodsman from Tauran could take out those Picts. I've had those moments in BRP games, they're great. Of course, there is the flip-side when your 100%+ warrior gets disemboweled by the stableboy with a pitchfork - but those moments can be great too.

Unless the opponents are specially trained as a team, and they have very favorable terrain, I find 3-4 opponents per turn to be the max - that's a GM call though.

I don't know why your hung-up on why it should be demonstrated that BRP is an "improvement" to d20. I never said that BRP is better than d20 for everyone, just that BRP can do Conan and that I would love Mongoose to eventually publish a MRQ Conan book(s).

As for the 500% skill that you find so incredulous, as a point of fact - Elric has a skill of 880% with Stormbringer in Chaosiums Stormbringer 5e, although his skill with greatswords in general is a much more modest 150%.

 

[AKAmra]

How about those of you who think that RQ is the best system for Conan go ahead and post some RQ sheets of Conan, Belit, Valeria and others to show us how it can work.

Hopefully Mongoose will make that MRQ Conan book and we can all see the new write-ups together!

 

[Demetrio]

Balthus' combat could happen in BRP terms by getting really lucky with the dice, rolling a string of criticals and/or specials with a relatively low actual skill score and/or some bad rolls for the Picts. Unlikely

Unlikely is the word.

And a skill of 880%?!? Oh well, if that floats your boat...

I find 3-4 opponents per turn to be the max - that's a GM call though.

Me too, although it would partly depend upon how long a round is in the game system and also how the book the game is based on depicts combat (in Howard, 3-4 combatants/round seems fair). You don't seem to think that simulating the sorts of combats seen in the literature is terribly important though, whereas I do.

If Conan has a damage bonus of d10 (say), to cleave an enemy in half - as he does on numerous occasions in Howard, he really has to overcome their HP in one blow. A special hit with a broadsword would allow him 2d8+2+d10 and that would be good enough. Maybe that silly 500% figure is necessary for him though because that would allow him a special hit every attack and that's what he seems to need.