Conan MRQ

[treeplanter]

I think the debate about MRQ vs d20 pretty much sum up to: Start strong and progress slowly versus start as a sucker and progress fast.

About active defense, it just suck. it is just adding dice for nothing

 

[AKAmra]

I think the debate about MRQ vs d20 pretty much sum up to: Start strong and progress slowly versus start as a sucker and progress fast.

About active defense, it just suck. it is just adding dice for nothing

Active defense sucks? There's that taste thing rearing its head again.

I remember playing my first game of RQ (many years ago) after playing D&D and AD&D. The GM rolls and hits my PC and then asks for a dodge or parry roll - What, I can actually do something to defend myself, it's not just, "your hit, take damage"?!

There's a sense of empowerment, my luck with the dice (and the PC's skill) determines whether or not I get hit. It does add dice rolls, but I much prefer active defenses.

 

[Deleriad]

The problem is that if you boost the PC's skill by 50, you won't materially change the outcome. He will still kill or badly injure 1 or two enemies, because he will still go down at about the same speed. he will probably be a bit more confident of getting two.

OK. However, if you boost the PC by 50 (to 125%) then he will have legendary abilities and all the usual upgrades with being someone who has 125% in a sword. After all, if you bump up the d20 character to level 10 more happens than just a change in the to-hit chance. If you're going to compare then you compare like with like.

You would expect a 125% barbarian to have something equivalent to skin of the bear and so on, including optimising his stats to get a +D4 damage bonus. You also expect him to have looted superior weapons over time and to attack 2-handed as he's not using a shield. So miniConan barbarian is doing something like d10+2+d4 damage per attack. That'll disable with a single blow more often than not however, if a single blow fails to disable he can precise attack to get the same location (85%). He will also have Hero Points. They are integral to MRQ and not allowing Hero Points is up there with not allowing parries because they're cheating or something.


when all is said and done He disables his opponents at about a rate of just under 3 per round as opposed to 4-5 for Conan. As with Conan he faces about 5-6 undefended attacks a round. Without armour he would have to burn more Hero Points to stay alive - basically he would spread them around the body then, once it gets bad he would need to take serious wounds to arms and legs which he can shake off through resilience rolls. If he's planning on fighting until he dies a good metric is that he can take a number of serious wounds equal to his hero points before he dies. Add 5 minor wounds to get a total. A 125% hero character would be looking at 20 hero points and can therefore take 25 damaging attacks before he gives up the ghost. 5.5 undefended attacks per round, 40% chance hit rate implies 11-12 rounds before he goes down. In the meantime, Mr Buff but no Conan should have killed up to 30 warriors.

Again note: I have assumed no legendary abilities and genre emulation to MRQ - this is MRQ in the raw. From what I understand of Conan as a genre, the sort of mini-Conan 125%er described above, stuck on a grey featureless plain against infinite warriors would kill lots but die.

I am happy to grant that the balance between skill, numbers, damage and armour is different from d20 (and presumably d20 Conan) but it looks to me that even raw it is a perfectly viable system for the genre. I should say that if Mongoose hired me to write ConanQuest tomorrow I would add genre emulation in and possibly start characters at seasoned rather than novice level to represent the larger than life nature of the genre but the basics of the game engine would be largely the same.

 

[Deleriad]

To sum up:
the basic debate is really simple:
is it the case that passive defence + damage reduction is good simulating Conan as a genre while active defence + damage reduction is bad?

Passive defence is more useful against numbers than active defence because it works against everyone.

My understanding of d20 is that it incorporates things like flanking bonuses in order to simulate the effect of extra numbers for that reason.

This is why you don't get flanking bonuses in active defence systems because you have undefendable attacks instead.

So, if 5 mooks surround someone with passive defence they all get - for argument's sake - +10% to hit.

if the same mooks surround an active defence user then none get any bonuses but some get stopped by active defence.

In the end that's all it comes down to.

d20 also has expanding hit points to simulate heroic resistance. MRQ uses hero points to simulate heroic resistance.

Pick your favourite approach and make it work.

 

[treeplanter]

Active defense sucks? There's that taste thing rearing its head again.

I remember playing my first game of RQ (many years ago) after playing D&D and AD&D. The GM rolls and hits my PC and then asks for a dodge or parry roll - What, I can actually do something to defend myself, it's not just, "your hit, take damage"?!

There's a sense of empowerment, my luck with the dice (and the PC's skill) determines whether or not I get hit. It does add dice rolls, but I much prefer active defenses.

Well the fact is that it just add dice. Adding dice likely increase combat lenght meaning more luck meaning you're more ending playing a board game. Conceptually you're still defending yourself with a passive defense. Defense value, hit point and and armor are all part of your defense. You can also chose to fight defensivly or total defense action to emulate your character focusing on defense.

"d20 also has expanding hit points to simulate heroic resistance. MRQ uses hero points to simulate heroic resistance."

A bit off subject, but that an interesting comment. For me hit point have nothing to do with resistance, but it is an extension of your character prowess in combat, will to live and determination.

From my point of view a 10th level character with 80 hit point who have been hit by 8 arrows and took 40 damage from them IS NOT crippled with 8 arrows, but it was exerting to dodge/deflect/block those. I'll more likely see him as having one or 2 arrows in the body when he is at -5 hit point and surviving on Diehard.

In the end, it all come down the the same crap. You roll dices

 

[Apple]

There's a sense of empowerment, my luck with the dice (and the PC's skill) determines whether or not I get hit. It does add dice rolls, but I much prefer active defenses.

Funny how perception and reality are completely different. Having a random defense makes combat more swingy, meaning it's harder as a player to determine the fight's outcome and also that your character is going to fall over dead more often and be very dis-empowered.

Less predictable fights mean headaches for the GM, and the extra rolls slow things down. More chaotic combat has it's place, but I think is better done as an exception by the GM adding elements to specific fights and not the rule all fights are run by.

 

[AKAmra]

There's a sense of empowerment, my luck with the dice (and the PC's skill) determines whether or not I get hit. It does add dice rolls, but I much prefer active defenses.

Funny how perception and reality are completely different. Having a random defense makes combat more swingy, meaning it's harder as a player to determine the fight's outcome and also that your character is going to fall over dead more often and be very dis-empowered.

Less predictable fights mean headaches for the GM, and the extra rolls slow things down. More chaotic combat has it's place, but I think is better done as an exception by the GM adding elements to specific fights and not the rule all fights are run by.

I knew the probabilities and "the reality is" arguments were going to be made, like yours and treeplanter's. I was going to address it in the original post, but I didn't have time and thought I'd just answer later.

I know the math, I also know I like to roll for my own defense and so do my players. Perception can be more important than reality in an RPG. It's not, "just more dice" if rolling defense is more fun for the players involved. There's also Hero Points to help you out from time to time with the bad rolls.

I don't use the d20 system anymore, I don't like the d20 system anymore, although I do have many fond memories of discovering RPGs with D&D. d20 can't do Conan FOR ME, because of my tastes and gaming style.

I also think that d20 doesn't do Conan very well, but I wouldn't try to argue that as objective fact, because that would just be silly. Just as silly as trying to argue that MRQ can't do Conan, "square peg, round hole, blah, blah, blah....".

Jason Durall, the author of the new BRP book, has used BRP to run Conan games, he's got some notes for same upped on the BRP site. As a published designer for BRP, I'd say he outweighs any "laymen game designers" on this forum for what BRP can or can't do.

If you don't like MRQ for Conan, go ahead and say that, and why if you want. Post stories about how d20 mechanics gave you, "yahoo!" moments during play. But, stop trying to argue that MRQ can't do Conan as an objective fact, that's simply false.... and silly.

 

[Sir Hackalot]

Jason Durall, the author of the new BRP book, has used BRP to run Conan games, he's got some notes for same upped on the BRP site. As a published designer for BRP, I'd say he outweighs any "laymen game designers" on this forum for what BRP can or can't do.

[/quote]

Could you post a link please?

 

[AKAmra]

I wasn't sure if it was allowed, but since you asked:

basicroleplaying.com

Goto: Downloads > Systems & Settings > Conan System Summary, Conan Character Creation and Conan Character sheet.

Be advised, these aren't a finished product, but very cool of him to post nonetheless.

 

[AKAmra]

BTW, I don't NEED a MRQ Conan to run MRQ/BRP Conan games. I have GURPS Conan, TSR's Conan, Mongoose's Road of Kings, The Ultimate Conan Guide, Marvel's Conan Guide, Marvel's Savage Tales, Dark Horse's Comics and the original stories + many pastiche novels for setting information.

I have MRQ Elric, the new BRP Book, many of the BRP games ever published and various net conversions, suggestions and my own notes for the system.

What I would like Mongoose to publish is a version of Conan that I would buy and add to my collection. I will not buy anymore d20 books, the system (that I don't like) takes up too much of the content. I also think that this is a very real possibility, for reasons stated up-thread.

Hell, the funny thing is that I don't know that I would even run MRQ/BRP Conan. d20 and MRQ/BRP share a probabilities issue for me, linear vs. bell curve. If Mongoose did publish a MRQ Conan I may just convert it all to GURPS 4e. MRQ/BRP to GURPS conversion is much easier than d20 to GURPS - I can pretty much do it on-the-fly.

 

[treeplanter]

Note I never said MRQ would fit Conan. I was talking purely about the system. From what I saw from MRQ I think it was a bad system but of course as I said it come down to preference. I just find the more you roll dice the more time you lose to do more interesting thing in a RPG.

I mean if you love playing Conan Monopoly or Settler of Conan (there should be a version someday) then have fun with it. Same argument goes for MRQ.

 

[Apple]

I know the math, I also know I like to roll for my own defense and so do my players. Perception can be more important than reality in an RPG. It's not, "just more dice" if rolling defense is more fun for the players involved. There's also Hero Points to help you out from time to time with the bad rolls.

Well that is your preference, but the fact that it makes for a demonstrably worse game means it's not going to be popular.

If you don't like MRQ for Conan, go ahead and say that, and why if you want. Post stories about how d20 mechanics gave you, "yahoo!" moments during play. But, stop trying to argue that MRQ can't do Conan as an objective fact, that's simply false.... and silly.

You can make computers out of ping pong balls. No one is really arguing that MRQ can't do Conan, just that it can't do it well enough to bother since other systems can do it better.

 

[rabindranath72]

No one is really arguing that MRQ can't do Conan, just that it can't do it well enough to bother since other systems can do it better.

This is not provably true. As I said, one designer on these boards has done work for a MRQ version of Conan (Vincent Darlage).
I still cannot get why MRQ would not work for Conan when it works for Lankhmar and Elric. Oh well.

 

[warzen]

I still cannot get why MRQ would not work for Conan when it works for Lankhmar and Elric. Oh well.

You're not following the discussion !! It's because you can use ping-pong balls to create a computer.
How can you beat such a strong argument ! :lol:

W.

 

[rabindranath72]

I still cannot get why MRQ would not work for Conan when it works for Lankhmar and Elric. Oh well.

You're not following the discussion !! It's because you can use ping-pong balls to create a computer.
How can you beat such a strong argument ! :lol:

W.

Silly me
Or a room full of water basins and pipes
Just for fun, I am going to run a MRQ Conan game this weekend by using the Lankhmar rules. I have never played MRQ before (bought the Lankhmar book because I am a fan of Fafhrd & Gray Mouser), so it will be an interesting REAL proof of how things can work. Will post my (eventual) house rules later.