[CONAN] Interesting Weapon & Combat Model

[Supplement Four]

A couple of notes on the Codex....


I've been looking over it a bit more, and if I were to use it with Conan, I'd use the Conan rules as the base and make the Codex conform to it rather than the other way around.

The Martial Feats I would change into Combat Maneuvers. In fact, many of the MF's are already represented as Combat Maneuvers in the various Conan supplements. A GM could use these Combat Maneuvers with or without the tri-stats.

As Combat Maneuvers, anybody could use them as long as they had the prerequisties. But, some of those prereqs are so narrow and specific that it's almost as if the MF were a traditional d20 Feat.



- Onset Range -

Here's how I would handle the Codex's Onset Range. I'd keep the Conan 5' squares, and I'd consider inside the same square as the foe as grapple range (just as it is in the Conan game). Melee Range would be in the standard 5' square touching the foe's square.

Onset Range would be handled a bit differently. Any foe at "reach" range (10', or two squares, distant) would be considered at Onset Range automatically. But, I'd also consider the first attack as a combatant closes to the 5' square touching bases with the foe's square to also be at Onset Range. Thereafter, if the combatant remains at 5' distance, he would be considered at Melee Range.

Thus....

Consider each letter to be a square.

ABCDE
FGHKM
NOPQR

The foe stands in the H square, using a broadsword. He threatens squares BCD in front of him, GK to his flanks, and OPQ behind him.

Any combatant that fights this foe with a reach weapon, and remains at 10' distant, is considered to be at Onset Range for as long as the combatant maintains the range.

But, let's say the combatant drops the reach weapon and draws his own broadsword. Let's say that he enters the C square in order to attack the foe in square H. On this very first attack, as the combatant enters C and attacks the foe in H, the combatant is considered at Onset Range. But, on round 2, if the combatant remains in square C, the combatant will then be considered at Melee range?

Simple enough? The first attack is at Onset Range but all other attacks from that square are at Melee range.

If a combatant wants to keep the range at Onset, then he's got to use his 5' step or his movement to keep the distance between himself and the foe. Every time he reenters the 5' square touching his enemy, he is considered to be at Onset range for that one round.

The combatant will be constantly jockeying back and forth to regain Onset Range status.

I like the foot-work required to regain Onset Range.

 

[LucaCherstich]

- Onset Range -

Here's how I would handle the Codex's Onset Range. I'd keep the Conan 5' squares, and I'd consider inside the same square as the foe as grapple range (just as it is in the Conan game). Melee Range would be in the standard 5' square touching the foe's square.

Onset Range would be handled a bit differently. Any foe at "reach" range (10', or two squares, distant) would be considered at Onset Range automatically. But, I'd also consider the first attack as a combatant closes to the 5' square touching bases with the foe's square to also be at Onset Range. Thereafter, if the combatant remains at 5' distance, he would be considered at Melee Range.

Thus....

Consider each letter to be a square.

ABCDE
FGHKM
NOPQR

The foe stands in the H square, using a broadsword. He threatens squares BCD in front of him, GK to his flanks, and OPQ behind him.

Any combatant that fights this foe with a reach weapon, and remains at 10' distant, is considered to be at Onset Range for as long as the combatant maintains the range.

But, let's say the combatant drops the reach weapon and draws his own broadsword. Let's say that he enters the C square in order to attack the foe in square H. On this very first attack, as the combatant enters C and attacks the foe in H, the combatant is considered at Onset Range. But, on round 2, if the combatant remains in square C, the combatant will then be considered at Melee range?

Simple enough? The first attack is at Onset Range but all other attacks from that square are at Melee range.

If a combatant wants to keep the range at Onset, then he's got to use his 5' step or his movement to keep the distance between himself and the foe. Every time he reenters the 5' square touching his enemy, he is considered to be at Onset range for that one round.

The combatant will be constantly jockeying back and forth to regain Onset Range status.

I like the foot-work required to regain Onset Range.

Your solution sounds interesting, but I fear it needs some more clarification.
Maybe it's just me and my bad English, but it seems to cause me some confusion between real Reach Weapons (for example Warspears) which remains at 10ft and normal weapon which you want to use at Onset 10 ft (for example Bardiches).

I'm still convinced that if you want to use a grid, that grid should be 2.5 ft (everything becomes clearer at that scale) or not use a grid at all (as the Codex does).
Anyway, I'll think about your solution but I need a few clarifications:

1) So, when somebody with a Bardiche will charge "H" from the left, where he will make his first attack?
F or G?
I think "G", if I understood your line of reasoning.

2) Let's say Bardiche-man is now in "G."
So, what the Bardiche-man will do to attack again at Onset in Round 2?
He needs to step back with a free 5ft to F to make an Onset Attack?
And what now?
Is he obliged to make a second 5ft step forward if he makes a full attack?
I think you should explicitely say that, if you make that Full Attack in "F" you are obliged to make a 5ft step forward (in G) for the other attacks in Melee range.
In any case, this is against normal d20 rules (you get two 5ft free steps).
So I think you need to spend a Move action for the first 5ft back.

And, at this point, the main difference between Reach & normal weapons is that Reach weapons should remain at Onset (10 ft) at full-attack while normal weapon are obliged to go to forward square to make melee attacks (did I misunderstood you?).
But, if things are so, what's the point in having Melee Stat for Reach weapons?
If somebody comes so near to them to attack in Melee, they can just make a free 5ft step back (without receiving an AoO) and make their full attack at their Onset Reach.
They will NEVER use their melee stats!!

 

[Supplement Four]

1) So, when somebody with a Bardiche will charge "H" from the left, where he will make his first attack?
F or G?
I think "G", if I understood your line of reasoning.

Yes. Teh Bardiche is not a reach weapon, so his first attack from square G is considered at Onset Range. Unless he moves and re-enters the square, starting on round 2, Bardiche man will be at Melee range.

2) Let's say Bardiche-man is now in "G."
So, what the Bardiche-man will do to attack again at Onset in Round 2?

He can't.

He'd attack at melee range on round 2 then step back 5'. Provided the enemy doesn't follow him, he can re-enter G, making an attack at Onset Range. But, on round 4, he'll be at melee range again.

In any case, this is against normal d20 rules (you get two 5ft free steps).

I'm not endorsing breaking the d20 movement rules. He'll have to make the movements over several rounds.

And, at this point, the main difference between Reach & normal weapons is that Reach weapons should remain at Onset (10 ft)

Why?

Reach weapons would be at Onset range at the first attack the move into standard melee range for that weapon (which is 10', not 5') just like a man using a broadsword.

Under my tweak, Onset range is used for the first attack and any time the character moves away and then closes again with his foe. Thus, those that wish to attack at Onset range must be continually increasing and decreasing distance with their foe. Tactical movement.





I do see your point, though. And, I think my tweak needs some tweaking.

How about Onset Range is reserved for the first attack only, but there are things that can happen in the game that can return a weapon to Onset Range status.

Most of the time, though, a character will be considered at Onset Range only when the first attack is made.

 

[galloglaich]

You could just set the onset distance for a weapon, some weapons are 10', some are 15', some (pikes and heavy lances) are 20'

Other than that, I kind of like this way of handling it. If I played with a grid I might use it myself.

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

You could just set the onset distance for a weapon, some weapons are 10', some are 15', some (pikes and heavy lances) are 20'

You've got my attention.

Most weapons in Conan, as with D&D, have a threat area of 5' or 10'.

So that I'm following you (which I'm not quite there yet), what would be the Onset range for a broadsword with a 5' threat range? How about a war spear, which is a reach weapon, with a 6-10' threat range (weapon not useable at 5' or less)?

Other than that, I kind of like this way of handling it. If I played with a grid I might use it myself.

Referring to Onset range being tied to the weapon?

Can you give me an example of what you're thinking?

 

[LucaCherstich]

I suspect Galloglaich suggets to give Onset 10 ft to everything.
I'm not so sure this is good for us, if you do nto want to change what is Reach in normal d20/Conan.

S4: I'm stil for the 2.5 ft grid since that way the system become clearer, but I'm also trying to to consider your alternative.

Here we have 2 alternatives:

2.5 ft scale grid: here Onset is physically visible.

5ft scale grid: Here the Onset is more a concept ("first attack") than a physically visible thing.
If so, my questions for you are:

1) You need to state that Onset is not the first attack for everybody.
If I charge my enemy (ending in G) and my enemy is still in H, I do not think that his first attack is going to be Onset, since he is already so close.

2) In your 5ft grid, how can one remain at Onset range?
The classical example is the Spearman who wants to keep distance with his weapon.
Possibly you can remain at Onset until you do not make a full attack...but maybe your enemy will attack you at full attack and going to melee, so at your turn you are obliged to make a step back...but the whole system becomes a backward walk by the spearman...everything becomes complicated...

My solution with 2.5 ft grid was to make the passage Onset-Melee or Melee/Onset (for people not doing a Full atatck which obliges you to go to melee) as a Move action (Galloglaich's suggestion, see above), so to stop this spearman's backward walk.
This become very effective when you hold a Reach weapon vs a Non-Reach Weapon, since your enemy is obliged to spend that Move action at your Onset/Melee border (not his own) without actually reaching his own Melee sqauare with you, while you can still fight him at your own Melee range (which is not adjacent for you).
But I'm open to your proposals if have any.

3) I think that keeping with your grid with large combats (10 vs 10) is complicated, trying to understand and remembering who is at Onset with whom and who's not.
I do not see any better solution than to go to 2.5ft grid to visualize the exact position of everybody in relationship to the others.

 

[Supplement Four]

1) You need to state that Onset is not the first attack for everybody.
If I charge my enemy (ending in G) and my enemy is still in H, I do not think that his first attack is going to be Onset, since he is already so close.

Part of my problem is that I haven't read the Codex as clearly as you have. I've skimmed it here and there (as I've been spending a lot of time on my game--we're playing again tomorrow).

But, I was under the impression that, under the Codex, everyone attacked using Onset range at first, then moved to melee or stayed at Onset. That's why I didn't think my first-strike-concept was such a stretch.

2) In your 5ft grid, how can one remain at Onset range?

I was thinking, too, that there could be a combat maneuver, not unlike the Codex's stealing the initiative, where a character at Onset range could remain at Onset range if successful with the maneuver. This would be a free action check that the character would have to do each round in order to be considered at Onset range. That would make it easy not to forget which range characters were standing.

The classical example is the Spearman who wants to keep distance with his weapon.

Thus, under my tweak, the Spearman would automatically be at Onset range during his first strike. On round 2, he's considered at Melee range unless he makes the Free Action check. If successful, he's at Onset range. If not, he's at melee range.

You can skew the check by deciding how easy it should be to remain at Onset Range. Maybe the check is real easy to do. And, maybe it's more of a 50-50 propostition.

3) I think that keeping with your grid with large combats (10 vs 10) is complicated, trying to understand and remembering who is at Onset with whom and who's not.

It wouldn't be using what I propose above.

When you get to Spearman #7 on the 4th round of combat, he's at Melee range unless he makes his check to be at Onset range. You don't make the check until it's Spearman #7's turn.

Thus, initiative will be important, too (And, I'm OK with that). Armingswordman #3 has nish and attacks Spearman #7. It's Armingswordman's turn, so Spearman is at Melee range. Then, Spearman goes, makes his check for Onset range (he just moved back to Onset range) and attaks Armingswordman at Onset range.

Or....

Spearman #7 has nish. He goes first. He makes his free check, so he's at Onset range. On the bottom half of the round, when Armingswordman #3 goes, he's at Onset Range.*

I imagine, during a combat, that the participants are constantly moving around, feinting, swinging, dodging, side-stepping...and moving between melee and onset range. The spearman is constantly trying to keep range from his target while his target is trying to get inside his spear range. The check decides what range the spearman is at when he finds that opportunity to attack.





*Hmm....maybe we should make it so that anybody can make the range check for free if they want to, between Onset and Melee?

The Armingswordman wouldn't want to change. He wants to fight at Melee, so he wouldn't make the check if he has nish. But, he would make the check if he went second in the round.

Spearman would make the check if he's got nish in order to get to Onset range, and he would make it if he doesn't have nish only if his opponent left the range at Melee (and didnt' change it to Onset).

 

[galloglaich]

You could just set the onset distance for a weapon, some weapons are 10', some are 15', some (pikes and heavy lances) are 20'

You've got my attention.

Most weapons in Conan, as with D&D, have a threat area of 5' or 10'.

So that I'm following you (which I'm not quite there yet), what would be the Onset range for a broadsword with a 5' threat range?

I think it might be a possibility to make onset range 10'

How about a war spear, which is a reach weapon, with a 6-10' threat range (weapon not useable at 5' or less)?

15'

And say, a 12' Spetum might have a 15', while a 20' pike would have a 20' reach.

Other than that, I kind of like this way of handling it. If I played with a grid I might use it myself.

Referring to Onset range being tied to the weapon?

Can you give me an example of what you're thinking?

well so in this case, for the war spear onset would be 15', melee would be 10', and 5' would be grapple range (spear doesn't work any more).

For the machete onset is 10', melee is 5', and grapple would be in the same square.

The idea would be, your first attack takes you from outside of range (10') to "in range" (5') which works in terms of how the concept of Onset works the way they describe it in the Medieval fencing manuals. The idea is "Onset" is the threshold as you come into range. And this way the Codex idea of closing to melee also works with the SRD mechanic of the 5' step. Essentilaly your onset attack includes the 5' step automatically. Then if the guy with a longer weapon wants to go back to Onset, you can play it out on the grid in a way which would reflect the actual dynamics of the fight (and move your miniature around the map in a tactical manner). I think it might work pretty well.


This seems like an easy way to handle it with the grid, and it would also create situations (depending on the terrain) where you could get strait into melee range in some cases.

Of couse it would probably also work with the 2.5' grid if you wanted to switch to that.

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

The idea would be, your first attack takes you from outside of range (10') to "in range" (5') which works in terms of how the concept of Onset works the way they describe it in the Medieval fencing manuals. The idea is "Onset" is the threshold as you come into range. And this way the Codex idea of closing to melee also works with the SRD mechanic of the 5' step. Essentilaly your onset attack includes the 5' step automatically. Then if the guy with a longer weapon wants to go back to Onset, you can play it out on the grid in a way which would reflect the actual dynamics of the fight (and move your miniature around the map in a tactical manner).

I think you might have something here. What I'm envisioning to incorporate it into the Conan game is a simple Combat Maneuver or two (what the Codex calls Martial Feats). The Maneuvers would be based on weapon length (the prerequisites), and the maneuver would include either a free closing 5' step (as a free action, as with the Dance Aside maneuver--which will be "fair" because there will be a combat maneuver for each size of weapon that includes Onset Range) or a use of the character's movement (the character might have to set aside 5' for this use, so if a foe is 15' away, the character will actually use 20' of movment with the Combat Maneuver).

I'm not sure of all the details, but that's the outline I'd use to bring it to the Conan game.

If the details are correct, I think it would work well.

We'd probably need an Onset Combat Maneuver for each size of weapon (Light, One-Handed, Two-Handed) to make it simple. Or, just one Combat Maneuver that contains conditions for each type of weapon moving to Onset Range.

And, we might need a CM the character can use remain at Onset or return to Onset.

In Conan, a character can only use one Combat Maneuver per melee round. Thus, if a character with a War Spear performs a feint, then he can't also use the CM to return to/remain at Onset range. Need to consider stuff like that.

All-in-all, though, I think it's a good start. 8)

 

[LucaCherstich]

I think I do not want to over-change my Conan games and how player play.
The problem is that, if you start making small change (+ or - a modifier) is OK, but more than that (10ft Onset for a broadsword, etc..) we start to over-modify Conan and the way people play.
Which is not bad in itself.
But it is bad for my group.
We do not play that often anymore (real life rules) and they do not want to learn a new system again.

Furthermore, if you make a series of changes, you must specify what you do with monsters and other big creatures with different reaches.
They have long Reach, but they can also attack what is nearby them.
So I think they should have a different melee & Onset approach than normal people.

Regarding the use of "Manoeuvres" for Onset, I like them, but they are more like "special moves" likes Hooking SHields and Bull's Charging, not something you use every round.
What you want to do, is to have slightly changes in basic rules, not manoeuvres.

I'll keep on reading your posts (in case you come out with some good new idea) but I still feel that I need just few rules for playing my game:

- 2.5 ft grid

- All attacks start at Onset, you cannot charge directly into Melee.

- From Onset to Melee: It is natural, so you can do it with a free 2.5 step, without suffering an AoO.

- To pass from Melee to Onset is more difficult: Move Action or suffer an AoO.

- Reach weapons: extreme square is Onset, the second square is Melee. If an enemy goes beyond melee with anything but a free step he suffers an AoO (as per normal Reach rules).

- large Monsters: nearby squares are Melee, anything else is Onset, until the limits of Reach.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think I do not want to over-change my Conan games and how player play.
The problem is that, if you start making small change (+ or - a modifier) is OK, but more than that (10ft Onset for a broadsword, etc..) we start to over-modify Conan and the way people play.

I disagree. He's basically saying what I was saying before--that Onset range is considered as the first strike as a character moves into range.

The actual reach of the Conan weapons is not changed. If a character with a war spear is sitting 15' from a foe, the war spear's reach is still 10'. The way I was interpreting what he said was that, when making an attack from Onset Range, the character is forced to move 5'.

Thus, if a character has a war spear, he moves 5' and makes his attack. This is why I said above that Combat Maneuvers needed to be written. A CM for two-handed reach weapons would see the character with the right weapon (war spear) move 5' and attack using the Onset modifiers.

If the foe moves 10' and gets into base-to-base contact with the war spearman, there would be another CM the spearman could use to move out and attack again from Onset Range. On the grid, the war spearman would move out 10' from the foe and make his attack using the Onset modifiers. This would be a "maintaining range" maneuver, or something like that. And, it would include making the war spearman immune with a 5' step) to moving out of the foe's threat range--just as if the war spearman had done it with a standard 5' step.

So, you see. The base Conan game is not being changed. The extra 5' square on the combat grid only determines if the character can attack from Onset range. If he does attack from Onset, then he must move into his normal attack range.

If a character has a normal one-handed weapon with a 5' threat range, then he would be placed on the map at 10' away from his foe. During that character's turn, he is considered to move towards his foe 5', attack using the Onset modifiers, then move back 5' to remain at Onset range.

That's not really chaning the game--it's just tweaking it a little.

 

[LucaCherstich]

If a combatant wants to keep the range at Onset, then he's got to use his 5' step or his movement to keep the distance between himself and the foe. Every time he reenters the 5' square touching his enemy, he is considered to be at Onset range for that one round.

The combatant will be constantly jockeying back and forth to regain Onset Range status.

I like the foot-work required to regain Onset Range.

I like the idea of Onset more as a concept ("First Onset Attack") than as a realistic range.

I like your general idea or moving in and out, and if we find for a good fix, I could even keep the 5ft grid... but according to these rules the Spearman WILL NEVER make a full attck at Onset range.

Let take the example of classical Spearfighter.
To make things easier let's say he holds a Hunting Spear (NO REACH, Onset +7, Melee +1).
He really needs to keep on attacking at Onset.
Let also say he has BAB+6/+1, so he needs to make a full-attack to exploit his second attack.

1st Round:
Spearman charges into his enemy, so he can makes just 1 attack, he does that at Onset.

2nd Round:
Spearman is now at Melee range.
He could do a full-attack, but this means not using his very good Onset +7 bonus.
So, What can he do?
According to your rules he needs to re-enter his own square to attack at Onset.
He has 2 options:

OPTION 1 (spending a Move Action)
He spends a move action to exit his own square and re-enter it.
This has 2 consequences (if we want to bee observant of D20 rules):
Consequence 1a: as he re-enters he makes a STANDARD ACTION attack, so he cannot make his own full attack at onset.
Consequence 1b: He suffers an AoO.
Since he is spending a move action to go out and in his own square, this is more than a 5ft step to exit a threatened sqaure, so it provokes an AoO.

OPTION 2 (spending a 5ft Step)
He can make a Full Attack at Melee range and THEN spend a 5ft step to to exit his own square, hoping to make an Onset attack during his next round.
Consequence 2a: The enemy can make a free-5ft step, going again in Melee range, and THEN in the SAME ROUND make a full-Attack vs the Spearman.
This means that Spearman's 5ft step was USELESS and in the following round he is obliged to keep on making full attacks at Melee Range.

In other words: to make another Onset Attack OPTION 1 is the only realistic option (if you do not care about suffering an AoO) and it means that the Spearman WILL NEVER make a full attack at Onset range.

Is this what you are suggesting?
I want to be clear: I'm not sure this is bad in itself.
Swords & other weapons with good Melee bonuses are quick weapons (should be used more quickly allowing for more attacks) than axes and spears with good Onset bonuses (which at short ranges should be slower and so less effective to make many attacks).

A question for Galloglaich: is it realistic for an expert spearman to never make a full attack (and so multiple attacks) in the same round at Onset?

FULL ATTACKS & ONSET
Off course we could come up with Feats to allow people to make more attacks at Onset...but I do not want old PCs specialized in Onset weapons (I'm think about a Bardiche-using PC) to be changed with more feats.

Inventing new Manoeuvres for this is tricky and I would like to hear your proposals, but we must consider all of its prerequisistes, to not make things over-complicated or allow too many people to do that.

Furthermore, if we are thinking about a way to make people keeping on making attacks at Onset (whether by means of Feat or Manoeuvre), we need to use 2.5 ft grid scale, to record exactly where they are, especially in large, complicated multi-participants combats.
The point is that if you keep on making attacks at Onset, Onset is no more a "concept" (First Attack) but also a real "Range," and if you remain at Onset Range, your enemy's first attack in the next turn, will still be at Onset!
And you need to record it in complicated combats!
But there's a possible solution to keep on using 5ft grid : saying that after you use that Onset full-Attack you end up in Melee Range, in any case....
...So here is my solution:

POSSIBLE SOLUTION (MANOEUVRE for 5ft Grid):
The point of making full attack and remaining at Onset is that full-attack is usually used by:
- 2-weapon fighters
- Higher level fighters (BAB 6+) for gaining multi-attacks.
Galloglaich specified that ONLY expert fighters knows how to remeain at Onset range, while un-experts always end up too close.
This means that I'm more interested in giving the advantage of remaining at Onset range to experts (BAB6+) than to two-weapon fighters.
With these premises, here is my proposal for a CM:
NEW MANOEUVRE:
EXPLOIT YOUR WEAPON'S LENGTH
You keep on attacking from Onset range with all the attacks in a full attack.
Action: 5ft free step and part ot the full-attack
Prerequisites: BAB 6+ OR Mobility
Circumstance: You are in Melee Range but you want to make a full-attack with the Onset Bonus.
Effect: You can spend only a 5ft step to exit and-enter your square and make a FULL attack in the same round.
You spend a 5 ft step even if the total Move is of 10 ft (going out and in the square).
This has two consequences:
- You do not suffer an AoO for exiting and re-entering your square
- At the end of your full attack you are considered in Melee Range for the sake of your enemy's next attacks.

 

[Supplement Four]

Let take the example of classical Spearfighter.
To make things easier let's say he holds a Hunting Spear (NO REACH, Onset +7, Melee +1).
He really needs to keep on attacking at Onset.
Let also say he has BAB+6/+1, so he needs to make a full-attack to exploit his second attack.

1st Round:
Spearman charges into his enemy, so he can makes just 1 attack, he does that at Onset.

ABCDEFG

Spearman charges foe from the right hand side. Foe is in square B. Spearman ends his charge in square D to indicate he's at Onset range.


Now, I'm just thinking outloud. These are ad-hoc, outlined rules that will need to be polished and re-thought. But, here's what I was thinking...

At this point, the Spearman wants to remain at Onset range. So, he makes a roll to stay there using the Maintain Onset Range combat maneuver (whatever that is--it will have to be created--it should be some sort of opposed roll with the foe).

If he's successful, he remains at Onset Range (and his marker is 10' from his foe).

What happened? The character took a step or two and attacked with his spear from the 5' square then retreated back to the 10' square.

He can't do this all the time--that's what the Maintain Onset Range Combat Maneuver is for. If he fails on that roll, then the character is at Melee range, and the marker is in the 5' square.

The two combatants are considered at Onset Range because the foe lost the toss when the spearman made his Maintain Onset Range throw.



ABCDEFG

At the end of Round 1, Foe is still in square B and Spearman is still in square D.

2nd Round:
Spearman is now at Melee range.

No, the Spearman is at Onset Range because of the Combat Maneuver used above.

Since the Spearman has initiative, he can now perform his full action and get both swings in.

Once he's done, he tries again to keep Onset range by making the opposed throw using the Maintain Onset Range combat maneuver.

Let's say that the spearman loses the toss this time. He's now considered at melee range. Move the spearman marker into the 5' square.

At the bottom half of round 2, the Spearman's foe attacks at melee range (which is better for the foe).

We end round 2 with the Spearman at Melee range.



ABCDEFG

At the end of Round 2, Foe is still in square B and Spearman is now in square C to indicate Melee range.







Round 3

Spearman attacks from Melee range. He can do a full attack if he doesn't move.

After the Spearman is done attacking, he will make the opposed roll to Maintain Onset Range again, to try and make the range between him and his foe at Onset again.

If the Spearman wins, the range is now increased to Onset. If the Spearman loses, the range remains at melee.



ABCDEFG

At the end of Round 2, Foe is still in square B and Spearman is moved back to square D to indicate a return to Onset range.






Is that a little clearer about what I was thinking? Roll to check for range after the first person in the fight goes. If there are three combatants, you will check for range just before the second combatant's turn.

That's the only time melee and Onset range are tested.

We could do something similar with grapply range, too (or maybe not...just thinking).

 

[LucaCherstich]

ok, it sounds interesting...but can you try to make your proposal of the Manoeuvre "Maintain Onset Range" rather than just describing its possible effects?
What do you want that opposed check be?
Opposed BAB rolls WITHOUT bonuses?
I Actually like this BAB opposed roll, since it favours more expert fighters.

So here is my proposal:

MAINTAIN ONSET RANGE
You keep on attacking from Onset range without entering in close melee.
Action: part of the Standard or Full Attack
Prerequisites: BAB 6
Circumstance: You are starting a fight but want to keep on using the Onset Bonus for all the other attacks without going into melee range.
Effect:
After you make your first attack at Onset, make an opposed BAB check between you and your enemy.
If you win you can keep on making Onset Attacks remaining at 10ft (2nd square) from the enemy without entering the Melee square (adjacent square).
Special: When you use a 10 ft weapon you remain at 15 ft (3rd sqaures), with a 20 ft weapon you remain at 25 ft (5ft square).

 

[Supplement Four]

Prerequisites: BAB 6

Characters have to be a minimum 6th level in order to maintain Onset range with a spear? Isn't that a bit much? Especially in a game that "lives" in the 1-10 range.

In my game, where 1000 XP is equivalent to what a character normally earns in one game year, an avearge character would be 30 years old before he could maintain Onset range with a Hunting Spear.

I don't think I'd have a prerequiste at all. I think it would be part of the training with the weapon. Thus, the prerequistie would be proficiency with the weapon.

 

[galloglaich]

I think y'all are maaybe overthinking this a bit.

In practice, when a guy with a long weapon like a spear is fighting a guy with a shorter weapon like a machete, the guy with the spear will be counterattacking and backing away while the guy with the machete tries to close the distance.

To simulate this in the codex, I made "Martial Feats" which allow the advanced spear-fighter to gain an Attack of Opportunity (via point control) to stab the guy who is trying to close with him if they have a shorter weapon.

I also made "Martial Feats" allowing the spear fighter to use his spear like a staff, to cut and strike with the haft and stab from a "half-staff" grip.

These two techniques are what experienced spear-fighters actually do against an opponent with a shorter weapon who is trying to close with them. To maintain range and remain aggressive (i.e. attacking multiple times offensively) is very challenging, not impossible by any means but challenging. You will not see a beginner doing this successfully against a skilled opponent. The guy with the longer weapon will either remain on the defensive, counterattcking, or will use his weapon in the half-staff when at close range.

This is true in all Martial Arts systems I'm aware off for both staff and spear: Chinese, Japanese, Filippino, Polish, German, Italian, French, English, Sikh, Persian, Turkish and Mamluk.

G.

 

[galloglaich]

To explain a bit further, the advantage of the longer weapon, particularly a longer thrusting weapon, lies in the transition from being out of range to being in range, which Liechtenauer calls the Zuefechten or "onset". When the guy with the shorter weapon is trying to close the distance, the spear-fighter will briefly have a large advantage. So the spear-fighter tries to re-create this circumstance over and over by continually retreating.

The machete guy by contrast wants to get to "Krieg" (close) range, where he will have the advantage, so he will keep trying to close-in, albiet carefully. Usually it's not safe to close in until after the other guy misses a thrust, so you stay right on the edge of that range until they do make a mistake. It's a dangerous game. You might want to make a maneuver like that; when the other guy misses you can close in without risking an AoO.

G.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Galloglaich, your suggestions are all very good and understandable.
But what we are trying to do here is:

- to get Conanized Onset/Melee rules: a midway solution, between Realism & Keepin some kind of Conan rpg, compatible with old Conan products.

- preserving old, experienced Conan PCs (and official NPCs), without forcing them to get feats they should have got at lower levels.

Off course, everything I'll come out will not be as realistic as the Codex is.
So I have here two proposals of solutions, tell what you like the most: Proposal 1 or Proposal 2?


PROPOSAL 1: "Move action or suffer an AoO"

- Use 2.5 ft grid (nearby square Melee, second square Onset).
- To move between your enemy's Onset & Melee ranges (or the way back from Melee to Onset) you need to spend a Move Action.
- If you do not spend a Move action but just a 2.5 or 5ft step to switch between Melee/Onset or Onset/Melee you'll suffer an AoO.
- When you charge you end up in your enemy's Onset range, so you make a Onset Range attack.
- If you want to go straightly into Melee Range with that charge, you'll suffer an AoO.

I always say "your enemy's" since if you face a Reach Weapon (e.g. warspear) you get the problem on spending or not a Move Action BEFORE than when you face a Machete-wielder.

I know it's not exactly what you were suggesting.
But this help us in not changing old PCs and NPCs.

I know also that with these rules you are not obliged to make First Attack Onset and then Melee...but I think it will happen in any case!
This is what could happen:

1st round: your charge at Onset, then your enemy could come into your Melee range with a Move action or suffer an AoO from you.

2nd round: IF you want to keep attacking at Onset You have two choices
CHOICE 1: Spend an Move action to get from Melee to Onset and make a Standardf Attack.
CHOICE 2: Spend an 2.5 ft step, suffer an AoO, and make a full attack at Onset.

Off course, this example above does not consider the case of you having a Reach weapon, which means that your enemy's choice "Move Action or AoO" will happen farther from you, so this will still slow the enemy (Move action for surpassing only 1 sq) or allow you to attack him with an AoO.
And when he will be at his own Onset range, you can step back with just a 5ft step, since you are not switching between your enemy's Onset & Melee.
If your enemy gots to nearby square to you (where Reach weapons are useless), you can still attack with the haft, as I have explained in other posts.



PROPOSAL 2: "opposed BAB tests"

- use 5ft grid scale and all normal Conan rpg/d20 rules but the followings.
- If at the beginning of your phase in the round you are not adjacent to your enemy but you charge into it, your first attack will use Onset Bonus.
- If you start adjacent to your enemy you need to use Melee Bonus. This means that Full-attacks will always use Melee Bonus.
- If you start adjacent to your enemy BUT you prefer to use the Onset Bonus (maybe you are a Bardiche-wielder) you need to make an opposed BAB test.
If you fail you'll suffer an AoO.
If you win you can make a full attack adding the Onset bonus to all of your attacks.
IMPORTANT: you remain in your own square to make the other Onset attacks. With reach weapons the normal d20 rules will allow you to make another Onset attack with just a 5ft step back (see below)

REACH WEAPON
Plase, consider that the above consideration for Onset/Melee must be combined with normal Reach Weapon's rules.
As per normal Reach weapons rules, you can still threat (and make an AoO) vs that bloody Machete-man charging you before he gets close!
Furthermore, with a reach weapon, you do not need to make opposed BAB check to make another Onset attack.
You actually cannot attack adjacent squares, so you make a 5ft step back before making a full attack.
This full Attack will have 1st Atk at Onset, followup attacks at Melee.
NOTE: If you want to make all full atks at Onset you make that BAB opposed check, but your opponent can make the return AoO only if he has Reach.

 

[galloglaich]

I guess your first option sounds better, they both seem a bit too complicated, but a contested BaB roll is definitely out, that is too many die rolls for combat.

Does mobility Feat give you a free move in Conan like it does in SRD?

G.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Here is the official Conan Mobility Feat:

Mobility
(General)
You are better able to defend yourself when on the move.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge.
Benefit: You get a +4 dodge bonus to your Dodge Defence against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area. If you cannot dodge, this bonus has no effect. Dodge bonuses stack, unlike most types of bonuses.

Pirates, Nomads & Barbarians get Mobility for free at 5th level, and if they do already have it, they get Improved Mobility.

Pirates, Nomads & Barbarians 10th level gets the Improved Mobility Class trait:
Improved Mobility: From 10th level onwards the barbarian never provokes attacks of opportunity so long as he moves at least 10 feet during that combat round. If the barbarian somehow already has improved mobility, he instead gains greater mobility (see below). Note that improved mobility does not apply if the barbarian is mounted.

Pirates, Nomads & Barbarians 15th levels get Greater Mobility:
Greater Mobility: From 15th level onwards the barbarian may move up to his normal speed as part of a full attack action rather than merely taking a five-foot step. He may move and attack in any order, so he might for example move five feet, attack once, move ten feet, attack twice more and then move again for the remaining fi fteen feet of his movement. Note that greater mobility does not apply if the barbarian is mounted or wearing heavy armour.